The Real Presence? Everyone respond. :)

[Protoevangel]

Do Moravians still believe this?

"In respect to the sacrament of holy communion, the Moravian Church does not try to define the mystery of Christ's presence in the communion elements, but recognizes that the believer participates in a unique act of covenant with Christ as Savior and with other believers in Christ."

This is on their website: moravian.org

Moravians affirm the real presence of Christ in the sacrament of Holy Communion (the Eucharist), but do not seek to explain the nature of his presence.
- http://www.mcsp.org/who_what.htm

Justification by faith through grace holds the same vital place among Lutherans and Moravians, and we acknowledge the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
- http://www.elca.org/ea/Relationships/moravian/fosii.html

 

[puriteen18]

Thanks for clearing that up Danhead.

 

[Protoevangel]

No problem puriteen18. It does look like the MoravianChurch in North America may be weak on that position, but some Moravian organizations do still hold to the Real Presence.

 

[LuxPerpetua]

Wow. Great posting all! I'm going to reread this entire thread tomorrow (I read the responses rather quickly today, and I'd like to give more thought and prayer toward these matters when I have more time).

I think all Christians believe that the Eucharist is holy and sacred and a sign of our covenant with God along with baptism (just to reiterate what we all hold in common regardless of denomination). Lately I've been feeling a lot of "I know better than you" vibes toward communion and I've been really grieved by the fact that this meal that is supposed to unite us with each other and with God has become so divisive to the point of many Christian sects refusing to "commune" with other Christians outside of their particular church (little "c" church, that is). These are just my thoughts on the subject. From what I can tell in these responses is that we all believe Christ to be spiritually present in the Eucharist because we are all partaking of it to recall his sacrifice to our minds and as a way of confirming our covenant with God that we believe in Christ's sacrifice as the final atonement for our sins. Since we all recognize the holiness of the Eucharist, I still don't understand the need to deny it to other Christians even if they don't believe in it the same as you do--that just seems wrong to me even though I've heard all of the reasons why these churches do this. I dunno. My heart just aches, that's all. Definitely something to pray about on my part . . .

Thanks again!

 

[Protoevangel]

I still don't understand the need to deny it to other Christians even if they don't believe in it the same as you do--that just seems wrong to me even though I've heard all of the reasons why these churches do this.

Hi LuxPerpetua,

I pretty much agree with you. Holy Communion is not a denominational table; the Communion is not between the communicant and the church, but between the communicant and the Lord. It is the individual who Paul exhorts to examine himself, not the church (1 Corinthians 11:28-31).

However, I hope you do realize that close Communion is not something done by churches to "exclude" people or make them feel bad. It is a practice the church feels is necessary to protect both their own members (1 Corinthians 10:21) and to protect the communicant from partaking of the Lord's body unworthily, and thereby bringing judgment upon themselves (1 Corinthians 11:29-31). It is the permissiveness of many churches today that cause churches who believe in the higher standards of separation unto God and nonconformity to the world to establish close communion.

Once again, I personally think it is the responsibility of the individual Christian to examine themselves, but there are a number of good, scriptural grounds for close communion as well.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Danhead, you explained why some churches cling to "close" communion very well. My own synod (LCMS) practices "close" communion, although we are more open in our congregation.

I am more vehement in my disagreement with my synod on this issue. The aspect of protecting someone from communion unworthily has been lost. (Maybe it made sense when the pending communicant had to meet with the pastor that Friday or Saturday before communion was offered--but that practice has been abandoned in our synod.) That we permit members to commune does not protect the table from those who commune unworthily. Membership does not guaranteee belief. Worthiness is only achieved by the righteousness in Christ we have which comes by grace through faith.

I believe instruction prior to communion--inviting only believers to the table--achieves what is necessary to protect the Body. The onus falls on the individual to heed the instruction.

My thoughts on the matter go clear to communing infants. Because worthiness is only achieved by faith and because I believe that Baptism brings faith to the infants--I sure do not understand why we do not commune them in our synod. We make communion some kind of thing we earn by achieving a certain amount of head knowledge when it is a sacrament for believers. Ah well...this is a topic for another time and another thread.

Peace

Rose

 

[puriteen18]

Open communion does seem to be the right choice, I think. It is the LORD's Table, not our's.

However, the minister presiding over the sacrament must explain the seriousness of taking unworthily.

I really see little evidence that we should keep a close communion.

Closed (not close, but closed) communion does allow, however, that the pastor would know who truly show the life eveidences of being a worthy partaker of the Supper. But open still seems the best to me now.

 

[LuxPerpetua]

I'm feeling the same way at this point, Puriteen18. I like your idea of a middle way.

I know Lutherans do not allow open communion, but do all other Protestant denominations allow open communion for all baptized Christians?

 

[puriteen18]

I'm feeling the same way at this point, Puriteen18. I like your idea of a middle way.

Middle way of the doctrine of the presence?

I know Lutherans do not allow open communion, but do all other Protestant denominations allow open communion for all baptized Christians?

No. Church of Christ don't, they do close communion. And Primitive Baptists (for which I am oftentimes confused as being since there are few Reformed Bapt. around here) hold only closed communion. Only the local congregation can celebrate communion.

 

[Protoevangel]

I'm feeling the same way at this point, Puriteen18. I like your idea of a middle way.

I know Lutherans do not allow open communion, but do all other Protestant denominations allow open communion for all baptized Christians?

Hey LuxPerpetua,

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America practices open communion.

• Like puriteen18 mentioned, Primitive Baptist congregations practice close communion. Some to a degree where only those of the local congregation are allowed to partake.
• Some other Baptist churches practice close communion as well.
• The Apostolic Christian Church practices close communion.
• The Church of God in Christ, Mennonite practices close communion.
• There are others as well, but they are not comming to mind.

Hi puriteen18,

I think what LuxPerpetua meant by "middle way", was your idea of keeping communion open, but "the minister presiding over the sacrament must explain the seriousness of taking unworthily".

 

[Celeste]

Hello, I am the one who wrote the first post and told of my true experience of this. I beleive God gave this to me to show me that Christ is in the blood and bread. I beleive it and no one, what ever you say can take me apart from it. I didn't mean to cause anyone to argue over this I meant it for a blessing. I am sorry to have you people argue. --Celeste. May God Bless all on here.

 

[Protoevangel]

Celeste,

Please do not apologize. Your story was beautiful.

I don't think most of us are arguing. This is a good subject to discuss however. I enjoy talking (or writing) about our God and His Grace and Mercy. I enjoy talking about it both with people who agree with me, and with people who have differing understandings. Rarely does the discussion degrade into an argument.

Your story was a blessing, as are you, my sister.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

I agree, I have been reading this thread and see very little arguing. Out of all my time here I have learned more about what different denominations believe on this thread than anywhere else. Celeste your OP was wonderful, and the discussion it sparked is good discussion. We may have veered off topic a little bit but there is a lot of learning going on here. Don't be disheartened, this is a good thread and nowhere near arguing really

 

[Celeste]

Celeste,

Please do not apologize. Your story was beautiful.

I don't think most of us are arguing. This is a good subject to discuss however. I enjoy talking (or writing) about our God and His Grace and Mercy. I enjoy talking about it both with people who agree with me, and with people who have differing understandings. Rarely does the discussion degrade into an argument.

Your story was a blessing, as are you, my sister.

Thank you DanHead. I appreciate the uplift given by you. It made me sad to read some of the posts though except, I know that everyone has the right to their own opinion. This gift from God was so real, so loving and kind from God i really wanted to share it. He is so awsome this God of ours. (everyone who believes is so blessed.) He is great!!! none other!

 

[Celeste]

I agree, I have been reading this thread and see very little arguing. Out of all my time here I have learned more about what different denominations believe on this thread than anywhere else. Celeste your OP was wonderful, and the discussion it sparked is good discussion. We may have veered off topic a little bit but there is a lot of learning going on here. Don't be disheartened, this is a good thread and nowhere near arguing really

thank you flesh99, I appreciate it! thank you celeste

 

[LuxPerpetua]

Hey LuxPerpetua,

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America practices open communion.

• Like puriteen18 mentioned, Primitive Baptist congregations practice close communion. Some to a degree where only those of the local congregation are allowed to partake.
• Some other Baptist churches practice close communion as well.
• The Apostolic Christian Church practices close communion.
• The Church of God in Christ, Mennonite practices close communion.
• There are others as well, but they are not comming to mind.

Hi puriteen18,

I think what LuxPerpetua meant by "middle way", was your idea of keeping communion open, but "the minister presiding over the sacrament must explain the seriousness of taking unworthily".

Thanks and ditto to your reply to Puriteen.

 

[LuxPerpetua]

Oh, Celeste, I've been meaning to pm you about the beautiful story that you shared with us. I don't want you to be disheartened at all. I believe you completely! My thoughts in this thread are directed more toward asking about sharing communion with all Christians regardless of their belief in the Real Presence, not whether the Eucharist is the Real Presence. I hope, sister, that your feelings are not hurt. Your comments are very welcome here.

 

[countrymousenc]

My thoughts in this thread are directed more toward asking about sharing communion with all Christians regardless of their belief in the Real Presence, not whether the Eucharist is the Real Presence.

The problem is that churches who do teach the Real Presence also believe that if anyone partakes without believing in the Real Presence would be incurring judgment upon themselves. As much as I would like to see all of Christ's people sharing Holy Communion together, I'm beginning to understand more and more about why churches with closed communion feel that it's necessary to be so careful. At the laity level, many (perhaps most) of us truly love each other and wish to share in this together, but the leaders who have been charged with caring for the flocks do indeed have a heavy responsibility to bear on our behalf. I appreciate their diligence.

 

[LuxPerpetua]

The problem is that churches who do teach the Real Presence also believe that if anyone partakes without believing in the Real Presence would be incurring judgment upon themselves. As much as I would like to see all of Christ's people sharing Holy Communion together, I'm beginning to understand more and more about why churches with closed communion feel that it's necessary to be so careful. At the laity level, many (perhaps most) of us truly love each other and wish to share in this together, but the leaders who have been charged with caring for the flocks do indeed have a heavy responsibility to bear on our behalf. I appreciate their diligence.

I do understand this as well, but I just can't agree with it at this point because I personally think of communion as being much more than the Real Presence (which I believe in as well ). I don't think that any of us can fully comprehend the Eucharist or its mysteries, but that at some level we all find common meaning and God's grace in it. From the passage of Corinthians it seems to me that the real judgment is upon those who partake of the Eucharist as "just another meal" without giving thought to its special distinction for the church or remembering Christ's sacrifice, which allows us to approach the altar of God (Hebrews does some really great things with this imagery). I'm not so sure that God will judge harshly those who partake of the Eucharist without perceiving Christ's physical presence but who do perceive his spiritual presence, which to my knowledge all Christians regardless of denomination do. I think the real judgment is against those who don't recognize in the Eucharist the importance of Christ's sacrifice, which for me is the most important element of the communion meal. Obviously this is just my opinion, but it is something that I've been thinking a LOT on recently, but ultimately only God can judge. Truth be told, none of us is worthy to bake and pour the elements or to partake of communion, and it is only through the Holy Spirit that we dare do it at all . . . so I just can't reconcile closed communion with what I feel that communion should be.