The real jesus

[fatboys]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought that He was resurrected ON the third day rather than AFTER the third day.

That is what I meant

 

[smaneck]

@single eye, I missed what you were originally claiming about the aloe and myrrh. Can you repeat it?

he thinks it was intended to revive jesus. i did some checking though, and it seems that the aloe here is not aloe vera as i originally thought but some kind of fragrant wood which is made into a powder. it is then mixed with myrrh to make a gummy substance which helps to hold the burial cloths together and also make the body smell better.

 

[cloudyday2]

he thinks it was intended to revive jesus. i did some checking though, and it seems that the aloe here is not aloe vera as i originally thought but some kind of fragrant wood which is made into a powder. it is then mixed with myrrh to make a gummy substance which helps to hold the burial cloths together and also make the body smell better.

Thanks, I found a link discussing Jewish burial practices:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/ancientburial.html

Here are some quotes. I found a possible significance to the resurrection happening after three days. Apparently three days would insure true death - not pseudo death. I could not find anything about 40 days. Of course Moses fasted for 40 days before receiving the ten commandments, and Jesus fasted for 40 days before starting his ministry. It might make sense for Jesus to wait 40 days before ascending to heaven? I thought there was something about spirits lingering with their bodies for 40 days, but I can't find anything.

One of the most frequently employed curses found in Mesopotamian texts is: "May the earth not receive your corpses," or the equivalent. In the same way one can measure the importance that Israelites attached to burial by the frequency with which the Bible refers to the fear of being left unburied.
...
The one thing expressed most clearly by Israelite burial practices is the common human desire to maintain some contact with the community even after death, through burial in one's native land at least, and if possible with one's ancestors.
...
In harmony with this desire, the tomb most typical of the Israelite period is a natural cave or a chamber cut into soft rock, near the city. Bodies would be laid on rock shelves provided on three sides of the chamber, or on the floor, and as generations of the same family used the tomb, skeletons and grave goods might be heaped up along the sides or put into a side chamber to make room for new burials.
...
The New Testament sheds some light on Jewish burial practices of the first century C.E. Jesus' disciples took his body, bought a great quantity of myrrh and aloes, "and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury" (John 19:40). There was a delay in completing the preparation of the body for burial because of the Sabbath (Mark 16:1; Luke 23:56). Luke (7:11–17) gives a vivid picture of the simple funeral of the poor; the body of a young man of Nain is borne out of the city on a pallet, clothed but without coffin, followed by the weeping mother and "much people of the city."
...
In talmudic times, burial took place in caves, hewn tombs, sarcophagi, and catacombs; and a secondary burial, i.e., a re-interment ( likkut aẓamot ) of the remains sometimes took place about one year after the original burial in ossuaries (Maim. Yad, Evel, 12:8).
...
According to one kabbalistic source, burial refreshes the soul of the deceased, and only after burial will it be admitted to God's presence (Midrash ha-Ne'lam to Ruth; cf. Zohar, Ex. 151a).
...
In talmudic times, while the burial was not delayed, graves were "watched" for a period of three days to avoid all possibility of pseudo-death (Sem. 8:1).
...
Since talmudic times, it has been customary to bury a male in the tallit which he had used during his lifetime, after its fringes have been deliberately rendered ritually unfit. The victim of an unnatural death is buried in his blood-soaked garments over which the white shrouds are placed in order that all parts of the body should be interred (Naḥmanides, Torat ha-Adam; Inyan ha-hoẓa'ah).

 

[smaneck]

Zoroastrians believe that the soul hovers around its body for three days.

 

[smaneck]

Zoroastrians believe that the soul hovers around its body for three days.

 

[fatboys]

Zoroastrians believe that the soul hovers around its body for three days.

Well you kind of want to see who is going to be sad to see you leave and hope there is not to much rejoicing

 

[smaneck]

Well you kind of want to see who is going to be sad to see you leave and hope there is not to much rejoicing

Actually, Zoroastrians believe that the dead must pass through a stream of tears of those who mourn for them. For that reason extreme grieving is discouraged.

 

[single eye]

@single eye, I missed what you were originally claiming about the aloe and myrrh. Can you repeat it?

Sure. In John we are told that Jesus was given vinegar to drink. This is highly unlikely as there is no historical evidence to indicate that this was a practice in the crucifixion process and there is no known reason for why vinegar would be used in this situation. Jesus then "gave up the ghost" which could easily be interpreted as went unconscious. The roman soldiers proceeded to break the legs of the other men beside Jesus and pierced His side with a spear. Blood coming out from the wound indicates that Jesus was still alive. It is most likely that the aloe and myrrh brought to Jesus by Nicodemus were for medicinal purposes rather than to prepare a body for buriel. Some historical scholars have proposed that the drink given to Jesus was most likely gall, whick is snake venom, because it would be capable of making someone unconscious and appear dead. These scholars were not biased by a need to defend the resurrection theory, making them more objective.

 

[Robban]

Sure. In John we are told that Jesus was given vinegar to drink. This is highly unlikely as there is no historical evidence to indicate that this was a practice in the crucifixion process and there is no known reason for why vinegar would be used in this situation. Jesus then "gave up the ghost" which could easily be interpreted as went unconscious. The roman soldiers proceeded to break the legs of the other men beside Jesus and pierced His side with a spear. Blood coming out from the wound indicates that Jesus was still alive. It is most likely that the aloe and myrrh brought to Jesus by Nicodemus were for medicinal purposes rather than to prepare a body for buriel. Some historical scholars have proposed that the drink given to Jesus was most likely gall, whick is snake venom, because it would be capable of making someone unconscious and appear dead. These scholars were not biased by a need to defend the resurrection theory, making them more objective.

John 20:34,
However, one of the Soldiers pierced his side with a spear,
and blood and water flowed out.

You missed the water part.

Some mean it means he died of a broken heart.
Water in biblical terms can mean many things.

 

[Robban]

John 20:34,
However, one of the Soldiers pierced his side with a spear,
and blood and water flowed out.

You missed the water part.

Some mean it means he died of a broken heart.
Water in biblical terms can mean many things.

Example,
Torah is water from above,
it flows down, filling every crack and cranny on it,s way,
but remains the same water,
never changing,
Truth is truth and truth can never die.

 

[cloudyday2]

Example,
Torah is water from above,
it flows down, filling every crack and cranny on it,s way,
but remains the same water,
never changing,
Truth is truth and truth can never die.

Also, one hypothesis is that the Gospel of John used an earlier Signs Gospel as a source, so the blood and water (and gall) might be a "sign" with significance that we no longer understand.

 

[cloudyday2]

Sure. In John we are told that Jesus was given vinegar to drink. This is highly unlikely as there is no historical evidence to indicate that this was a practice in the crucifixion process and there is no known reason for why vinegar would be used in this situation. Jesus then "gave up the ghost" which could easily be interpreted as went unconscious. The roman soldiers proceeded to break the legs of the other men beside Jesus and pierced His side with a spear. Blood coming out from the wound indicates that Jesus was still alive. It is most likely that the aloe and myrrh brought to Jesus by Nicodemus were for medicinal purposes rather than to prepare a body for buriel. Some historical scholars have proposed that the drink given to Jesus was most likely gall, whick is snake venom, because it would be capable of making someone unconscious and appear dead. These scholars were not biased by a need to defend the resurrection theory, making them more objective.

If the gall and aloe and myrhh was designed to fake death and resurrection, then why would the followers of Jesus record these details in the gospel?

There is the interesting thing about Thomas. Some traditions say that Thomas was an identical twin of Jesus. Also the gospel of John records Thomas as the skeptic who was not present when Jesus appeared, etc. Then we have the gnostic gospel of Thomas. I suspect there was some more significance to Thomas that has been forgotten. Some scholars think his skepticism in the gospel of John was designed to insult the gnostic Christians.

EDIT: Also John has a more gnostic feel than the synoptic gospels. The Logos is a gnostic concept. Maybe some of these odd details (drinking gall and water coming from Jesus' wound) hide gnostic teachings?

 

[Supreme]

I believe that Jesus was physically Resurrected, and that this is the most crucial and significant event in Christian (and indeed human) history.

 

[LoAmmi]

I believe that Jesus was physically Resurrected, and that this is the most crucial and significant event in Christian (and indeed human) history.

Seems like what a Christian would have to believe. Without the Resurrection your religion is nothing according to Paul.

 

[Supreme]

Seems like what a Christian would have to believe. Without the Resurrection your religion is nothing according to Paul.

Indeed. Without the Resurrection, Christianity is just another religion. With the Resurrection, it becomes alive- it has a real, tangible purpose, the greatest purpose in history.

 

[LoAmmi]

Indeed. Without the Resurrection, Christianity is just another religion. With the Resurrection, it becomes alive- it has a real, tangible purpose, the greatest purpose in history.

Well, I'll have to disagree with you.

 

[Robban]

Not so much fuss about Lazarus, according to the story he had been in the tomb for four days.

 

[fatboys]

Well, I'll have to disagree with you.

So what do you think our purpose is

 

[LoAmmi]

So what do you think our purpose is

Probably something along the lines of do better today than you did yesterday.

 

[cloudyday2]

The resurrection may be significant in God's master plan, but it is not very persuasive evidence that Jesus was anybody special compared to the other miracles in the gospels. Corpses come back to life sometimes. According to the earlier quote, the Jews were well aware of this problem and watched the corpse for three days in case the dead person might come back to life. Of course the spear wound would make the resurrection more impressive.