The real jesus

[Albion]

But don't Christians believe that Jesus also died and was buried before His bodily resurrection?

Well, certainly. But that doesn't mean that a mere mortal, Mary, would ascend in to heaven also. Indeed, the links you provided made the point somewhere that the two should not be confused with each other.

Where the Catholic website made the distinction between Mary and Jesus was that Jesus used His own power to ascend whereas Mary was assumed by God's power.

That's true, but it didn't stop there.

We might have to concede that, in the past, there was some speculation about Mary possibly having gone to heaven while alive, and the wording here or there leaves room for that, but the legends mainly depend upon her having died and that's the way it's always taught in the Roman church.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Thanks for your post... That's correct.. Baha'is do not believe in a "physical resurrection" for anyone... The body which is composed of elements returns to those elements and the immortal soul of man ascends to the spiritual worlds.

"....you who literally believe that the human body will return to dust and will be raised from it again, and therefore attach so much importance to this mortal world, how then can you wax so proud, and boast over things which are but perishable and consequently void of any true and lasting value."

~ Baha'u'llah

(Cited by Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 65)

Then Baha'i do not believe Christ, and reject biblical scripture.

• Isaiah 26:19
  19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
• 
  
• Luke 24:33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
• 35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
• 36 ¶And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
• 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
• 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
• 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
• 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

 

[cloudyday2]

Well, certainly. But that doesn't mean that a mere mortal, Mary, would ascend in to heaven also. Indeed, the links you provided made the point somewhere that the two should not be confused with each other.


That's true, but it didn't stop there.

We might have to concede that, in the past, there was some speculation about Mary possibly having gone to heaven while alive, and the wording here or there leaves room for that, but the legends mainly depend upon her having died and that's the way it's always taught in the Roman church.

How can a dead body exist in heaven without corrupting heaven? Death was associated with sin, etc.

Apparently you are claiming that Mary has not been resurrected yet, but her physical body waits incorrupt in heaven? I'm claiming that Christians believed Mary was resurrected and immediately assumed into heaven with her physical body. Then Thomas opened the tomb and it was empty - just as happened with Jesus. The only difference is that Jesus waited several weeks before ascending, so He could instruct His followers. That was my understanding of the Dormition.

 

[Albion]

How can a dead body exist in heaven without corrupting heaven? Death was associated with sin, etc.

Experiencing death was associated with sin. Anyway, I don't think we can know all the details of how heaven operates. Jesus' body ascended to heaven, it's believed, and if so, there's probably no reason Mary's couldn't be assumed in to heaven.

Apparently you are claiming that Mary has not been resurrected yet, but her physical body waits incorrupt in heaven?

No. We were talking about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches on the subject.

I'm claiming that Christians believed Mary was resurrected and immediately assumed into heaven with her physical body.

I guess you can believe whatever you want to believe about this. My point was simply that this isn't the belief of the ancient church, of the Roman Catholic Church which has dogmatized the Assumption, or of just about any other Christian church.

Then Thomas opened the tomb and it was empty - just as happened with Jesus.

That Thomas allegedly opened the tomb is legend. We believe what we do about Jesus' body because of the Scriptures.

The only difference is that Jesus waited several weeks before ascending, so He could instruct His followers.

Actually, that would be only one of the many differences. You mentioned another one yourself in the last post, I think it was--that Jesus ASCENDED (on his own power). IF Mary's body were taken to heaven, it would be because God made it happen, which is why the idea is called the ASSUMPTION.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

No, that wouldn't follow. But it was her dead body that was supposed to have been taken to heaven, unlike the "Ascension" of Christ. Mary's spirit was and is believed to have previously gone to heaven, like any other saint.

Was there such a thing as a disembodied spiritual afterlife in Christianity, even back then? I thought the standard belief back then was a bodily resurrection on judgment day - and nothing before that?

 

[Albion]

Was there such a thing as a disembodied spiritual afterlife in Christianity, even back then? I thought the standard belief back then was a bodily resurrection on judgment day - and nothing before that?

No. If it matters, the Jews before Christ's time certainly believed that the righteous dead had gone on to life in the spirit world. Anyway, the most common belief has always been that there is an immediate judgment upon ones' death...and then another, the "Final Judgment" at the end of time, following the Second Coming, when the graves will be opened and the spirits joined to glorified bodies. The New Testament, FWIW, gives a number of examples of the early church believing that the souls of the dead lived on in spirit form.

 

[smaneck]

Then Baha'i do not believe Christ, and reject biblical scripture.

At most you might say we disagree with luke. But then so apparently does paul.

 

[smaneck]

So you not. Relieve in a physical resurrection for anyone? What do you believe we are in a body now?

i think we are attached to our bodies in some way, but i don't think we are 'in' our bodies.

 

[smaneck]

Being revived from a snake venom induced coma does not qualify as a resurrection, so no.

uh, do you have some evidence for this?

 

[cloudyday2]

I guess you can believe whatever you want to believe about this. My point was simply that this isn't the belief of the ancient church, of the Roman Catholic Church which has dogmatized the Assumption, or of just about any other Christian church.

Let me paraphrase what I think you have said about Catholic beliefs. Tell me if I'm wrong.
- Mary died of old age
- Disciples put Mary in a tomb
- Thomas wanted to see Mary's corpse, but tomb was empty
- Mary's corpse had been transported into heaven
- Mary's spirit went wherever other human spirits go immediately after death
- Mary's corpse is lifeless in heaven awaiting the Second Coming to be resurrected

I don't think that is what Catholics or Orthodox believe. Google some paintings of the Assumption of Mary. She looks very alive in the paintings as she is lifted to heaven.

 

[smaneck]

In the context of the text, however, it is clear that the resurrected Bible-Jesus was not a disembodied ghost: he still bears the wounds of his ordeal, and Thomas even touches these. At the same time, he can apparently disguise his appearance, walk through walls and fly into the sky/heavens.

That is certainly what luke-acts describes but i think paul's description in 1 Corinthians (which is the earliest we have) is decidedly less physical.

i think the reason for the difference is that Gnosticism which denied that jesus ever even had a physical body was a threat by the time luke is written and he is therefore concerned to stress its physicality. mind you, i don't think the resurrection was entirely non-physical either. it may have been something like what we refer to today as a subtle body. But i'm speculating here.

 

[smaneck]

Jesus was given "gall" before He gave up the ghost or passed out. Gall is snake venom.

i believe gall in the new Testatment refers to a bitter drink containing opium or some other type of pain killer. in any case, jesus tasted it and refused to drink anymore.

 

[danny ski]

It's a whole lot of speculation, mixed with wishful thinking. The real truth is that nobody really knows.

 

[RevelationTestament]

At most you might say we disagree with luke. But then so apparently does paul.

No, he doesn't.
Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.


1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

 

[smaneck]

No. If it matters, the Jews before Christ's time certainly believed that the righteous dead had gone on to life in the spirit world. Anyway, the most common belief has always been that there is an immediate judgment upon ones' death...and then another, the "Final Judgment" at the end of time, following the Second Coming, when the graves will be opened and the spirits joined to glorified bodies. The New Testament, FWIW, gives a number of examples of the early church believing that the souls of the dead lived on in spirit form.

i don't think there is much evidence of that. The pharisees believed in a physical resurrection but not the Sadducees. it is not clear they believed in any short of afterlife. i don't know of any evidence for a jewish belief in a spirit world prior to Christ's time. Even the belief in the resurrection seems borrowed from Zoroastrianism.

 

[RevelationTestament]

In Mathew he tasted it but did not drink it.
In Mark he refused it.
In Luke he was offered the sourwine/vinegar/gall or whatever, maybe for benumbing purposes.
In John he drank it.

This is an inaccurate representation.
In Matthew Jeshua was offered gall before he was crucified and again right before He died on the cross.
John is referring only to this second time.
This fulfilled scripture from Psalms 69:21

• Psalms 69:21
  21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
  

 

[LoAmmi]

This is an inaccurate representation.
In Matthew Jeshua was offered gall before he was crucified and again right before He died on the cross.
John is referring only to this second time.
This fulfilled scripture from Psalms 69:21

• Psalms 69:21
  21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

If that fulfills Psalm 69, what do you make of this in verse 6?
O God, You know my folly, and my acts of guilt are not concealed from You.

What acts of guilt and follies did Jesus commit in order to fulfill this?

 

[smaneck]

No, he doesn't.
Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

i don't recall we were even discussing the topic of atonement. As for the resurrection, lets look more carefully at what paul says, in that same chapter of 1 Corinthians you cited earlier.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

i might be wrong here but it seems to me that a body which is not flesh and blood is not likely to be a physical body. i can't say i'm entirely sure what paul is saying here but it sounds a lot like the views of Shaykh Ahmad Ahsai, a forerunner to our own religion, who held that people had both physical and spiritual bodies as well as physical and spiritual souls and only the latter would participate in the resurrection. i give a lot of credence to paul's account because he is the only writer in the new Testament that claims to have seen the resurrected jesus. All the other accounts are third person hearsay.

 

[gord44]

...

 

[RevelationTestament]

If that fulfills Psalm 69, what do you make of this in verse 6?
O God, You know my folly, and my acts of guilt are not concealed from You.

What acts of guilt and follies did Jesus commit in order to fulfill this?

Jesus was not David, but possessed the keys of David. So many things in Psalms apply to Jesus or are reiterated in the life of Jesus. It has to do with the Davidic covenant. In other words David was being likened unto Jesus in some ways. In this present earthly life Jesus was without sin as he had been begotten as the Son of the Father, and made our King. The throne of David was an imperfect earthly throne, while the throne of Christ is a perfect throne of His Father.