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The Real Deal

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PaleHorse

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I just thought I'd post these links to help Christians who are stumbling on the question regarding consumption of alcoholic wine in the Bible. I'm sure that these chapters will answer all of the applicable questions. If not then we can discuss it.

The Meaning of "wine" in the Bible

Preservation of Grape Juice

Jesus and Wine

Wine in the Apostolic Church

I truly believe that if anyone reads those chapters any/all of their questions will be answered on this topic. Please read in an attitude of learning.
 

PaleHorse

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SnowBird77 said:
I think the Bible is clear on the subject. BTW, what does it mean to be stumbling in this context?
I to believe the Bible is abundantly clear on the subject - but not everyone is as clear on it. So this subject can be a stumbling block for many. They get presented with verses they aren't clear on or haven't thoroughly studied and thus end up with an incorrect conclusion. It is my hope that the information found via the above links will clarify the fog and allow the truth to shine.
 
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tall73

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General warnings:

PR 20:1 Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler;
whoever is led astray by them is not wise.
----------------------

PR 23:31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly!

PR 23:32 In the end it bites like a snake
and poisons like a viper.

PR 23:33 Your eyes will see strange sights
and your mind imagine confusing things.

PR 23:34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
lying on top of the rigging.

PR 23:35 "They hit me," you will say, "but I'm not hurt!
They beat me, but I don't feel it!
When will I wake up
so I can find another drink?"

Scriptures that speak of people in responsible positions not drinking:

PR 31:4 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel--
not for kings to drink wine,
not for rulers to crave beer,

PR 31:5 lest they drink and forget what the law decrees,
and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.

PR 31:6 Give beer to those who are perishing,
wine to those who are in anguish;

PR 31:7 let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.

----------------
LEV 10:8 Then the LORD said to Aaron, 9 "You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. 10 You must distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean, 11 and you must teach the Israelites all the decrees the LORD has given them through Moses.


Texts which demonstrate dangers:

GE 9:20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.


GE 19:30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."

GE 19:33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.




It is clear that even holy men were overcome with drink at times. Couple this with our modern understanding that it is addictive, and that tendencies to addiction might even be inherited, why would we want to endorse drinking at all? The Bible does not forbid it. But I would hardly think as a church we should endorse it.

The thing that all of the texts above have in common is that strong drink tends to lessen our control over our faculties, making us more open to sin.

In Bible times they didn't make a huge distinction over whether the wine was new, old etc. Sometimes they would, in fact it is clear they understood it from Jesus' parable about the wineskins. But they referred to BOTH as wine. They didn't have refrigeration, so they just used it in whatever state it was in.

But can we really endorse an activity that lessens control, and that contributes to many modern evils such as accidents, etc. and even at times abuse, etc.

Now does this mean that the Bible expressly forbids drinking of alcohol? No, in fact it doesn't. The main emphasis is on avoiding drunkeness, not just alcohol in general.

But the point is, there is little to recommend it, and much reason to avoid it.
 
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SnowBird77

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tall73 said:
GE 19:30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."

But the point is, there is little to recommend it, and much reason to avoid it.
Everyone agrees that there are serious health risks associated with alcohol. That is the best argument against it. The social costs are huge.

You get in trouble when you try to make a biblical argument. Look at the text above. Lot had just escaped from Sodom. He was now living in a cave. It is obvious that one thing he packed was a good supply of wine. Trying to make a biblical argument does more harm than good.
 
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PaleHorse

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SnowBird77 said:
Everyone agrees that there are serious health risks associated with alcohol. That is the best argument against it. The social costs are huge.

You get in trouble when you try to make a biblical argument. Look at the text above. Lot had just escaped from Sodom. He was now living in a cave. It is obvious that one thing he packed was a good supply of wine. Trying to make a biblical argument does more harm than good.
Actually, I find that same verse(s) to be a good argument for abstaining from alcoholic wine. Look what happened in the story - Lot, being drunk, ended up having "relations" with his daughters. Is this a good thing? I wouldn't think so and I'm certain that others would agree that this was not a good thing.

Just as Tall73 pointed out (and is cemeted through scholarly analysis provided by Dr. Bacchiocchi) the most clear texts and overwhelming weight of scripture clearly condemns the "casual" imbibing of alcohol - "casual" meaning without medical cause for the purpose of this post. As such, I think a very strong biblical argument exists. Again, the clearest, most direct texts on the subject state that alcohol is a no-no.

Using the example of Lot for instance, in order for us to say that because Lot had packed alcoholic wine (which is obvious and unrefutted) we must make certain assumptions as to "why" he had it. Well, let's consider where he had to flee from - SODOM - one of the most wicked places there was. Perhaps that type of wine was all he could purchase in that sinful city. You see how we must extrapolate in order to find any answers? On the other hand we have clear and concise scripture that directly warns of consuming such "strong drink" - to include wine.

SnowBird77 said:
Everyone agrees that there are serious health risks associated with alcohol.
No, not everyone agrees with this statement for there are some that cite having to use wine AS a regular medical treatment - and yes, the Bible does say to "take a little wine" to aid ones stomach. Yet, drinking a glass of wine to accomplish this is not "a little" for two reasons; 1) the strength of today's wine is much stronger than it was at the time of the scriptural writings and thus "a little" becomes much less, and 2) "a little" could have just as easily meant a thimble-full rather than a full glass. To me, and this is just my opinion until I study it out further, this is someone looking for an excuse to drink. If someone is having regular problems with stomach ailments then they'd be best served by looking at their diet and abstaining from foods that cause such a problem. If a particular offending food cannot be ascertained then one must consider their own mastication or other habits that might be contributing to the problem. The Bible doesn't say we should rely on drinking "a little" wine as a cure for our stomach problems.

I agree that the medical affects and social costs of alcoholic consumption should be enough to enlighten folks about the dangers of drinking alcohol - but I also think a strong biblical argument exists.
 
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SnowBird77

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PaleHorse said:
I agree that the medical affects and social costs of alcoholic consumption should be enough to enlighten folks about the dangers of drinking alcohol - but I also think a strong biblical argument exists.
I prefer the non-biblical argument. No one today has ever had wine prepared back then. We do not know how it compares with what we have today.
 
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PaleHorse

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SnowBird77 said:
I prefer the non-biblical argument. No one today has ever had wine prepared back then. We do not know how it compares with what we have today.
I would have to respectfully disagree with your statement. We can, very easily so, reproduce the say exact type of wine that was made back in biblical times and this has already been done. Thanks to Josephus (and other historians) we have the processes that were used. If you read the following link I think you'll find that conclusion contained therein.

Preservation of Grape Juice
 
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SnowBird77

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PaleHorse said:
I would have to respectfully disagree with your statement. We can, very easily so, reproduce the say exact type of wine that was made back in biblical times and this has already been done. Thanks to Josephus (and other historians) we have the processes that were used. If you read the following link I think you'll find that conclusion contained therein.
I was referring to regular consumption. We cannot compare the two situations. What we buy at the local IGA store is not what they had in Palestine.
 
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PaleHorse

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SnowBird77 said:
I was referring to regular consumption. We cannot compare the two situations. What we buy at the local IGA store is not what they had in Palestine.
But that is the very point - we shouldn't be buying it down at the local IGA for regular consumption if we are claiming that we follow the Bible. So the comparision falls by the wayside.
 
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SnowBird77

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PaleHorse said:
But that is the very point - we shouldn't be buying it down at the local IGA for regular consumption if we are claiming that we follow the Bible. So the comparision falls by the wayside.
Nor should we be using the Bible to denounce it. The Bible did not refer to it. I don't need a Bible text to speak against Cocaine.
 
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PaleHorse

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SnowBird77 said:
Nor should we be using the Bible to denounce it. The Bible did not refer to it. I don't need a Bible text to speak against Cocaine.

The Bible most certainly does refer to it. Cocaine, though a closely related topic, is not the topic of this thread.

The Bible says unequivocally that the drinking of alcholic wine (and other strong drink) is bad. I can easily use the Bible to denounce its use in this manner and I invite you to bring up any verses you so desire to discuss on the topic. But in the end you will see that the Bible is very clear on its stance (God's stance) of the consumption of alcoholic wine. All I ask is that you present your verses one at a time so that we may discuss them to the Nth degree (if need-be) before moving to the next so that there isn't any confusion.
 
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SnowBird77

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PaleHorse said:
The Bible most certainly does refer to it. Cocaine, though a closely related topic, is not the topic of this thread.

The Bible says unequivocally that the drinking of alcholic wine (and other strong drink) is bad. I can easily use the Bible to denounce its use in this manner and I invite you to bring up any verses you so desire to discuss on the topic. But in the end you will see that the Bible is very clear on its stance (God's stance) of the consumption of alcoholic wine. All I ask is that you present your verses one at a time so that we may discuss them to the Nth degree (if need-be) before moving to the next so that there isn't any confusion.
We just agreed that the Bible is not talking about the wine at your local liquor store. You can't have it both ways.
 
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PaleHorse

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SnowBird77 said:
We just agreed that the Bible is not talking about the wine at your local liquor store. You can't have it both ways.
No, we didn't agree on that. Alcoholic wine is alcoholic wine - makes no difference where it is purchased. Or perhaps that wasn't your point?
 
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StormyOne

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PaleHorse said:
No, we didn't agree on that. Alcoholic wine is alcoholic wine - makes no difference where it is purchased. Or perhaps that wasn't your point?

It may or may not be, but I do know that in Deut. God gave permission for the COI to turn their tithe into money and buy what they wanted, wine or strong drink and have a feast before the Lord... so while we do abstain, there are cases where God permitted it....

And yes I believe that the water to wine miracle that Jesus performed consisted of real wine and not grape juice...
 
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PaleHorse

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StormyOne said:
It may or may not be, but I do know that in Deut. God gave permission for the COI to turn their tithe into money and buy what they wanted, wine or strong drink and have a feast before the Lord... so while we do abstain, there are cases where God permitted it....

And yes I believe that the water to wine miracle that Jesus performed consisted of real wine and not grape juice...
Welcome to the conversation Stormy. Now do you want to discuss both of your references at the same time or is there one you'd like to start off with first?
 
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StormyOne

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PaleHorse said:
Welcome to the conversation Stormy. Now do you want to discuss both of your references at the same time or is there one you'd like to start off with first?
either/or or both.... I can can up or I'll type "uncle" when it goes over my head....

Deut 14 is the chapter in question....
 
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