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PaleHorse

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StormyOne said:
either/or or both.... I can can up or I'll type "uncle" when it goes over my head....

Deut 14 is the chapter in question....
Okay, well I'll start simply and then if we have to get into the nitty-gritty details we can:
In Deut 14 we do find that they were told they could buy anything with the money - and "strong drink" (Deu 14:22-27) was included in the list. But in Numbers we find some clarification of the event:
Numbers 28:7, "In the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the Lord for a drink offering."
The strong drink was not drank - it was poured on the ground.
 
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StormyOne

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Deut 14:22-29 "You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. (23) And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. (24) And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, (25) then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses (26) and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household. (27) And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you. (28) "At the end of every three years you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in the same year and lay it up within your towns. (29) And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance with you, and the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your towns, shall come and eat and be filled, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands that you do.

 
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StormyOne

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PaleHorse said:
Okay, well I'll start simply and then if we have to get into the nitty-gritty details we can:
In Deut 14 we do find that they were told they could buy anything with the money - and "strong drink" (Deu 14:22-27) was included in the list. But in Numbers we find some clarification of the event:
Numbers 28:7, "In the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the Lord for a drink offering."
The strong drink was not drank - it was poured on the ground.
Out of context Palehorse.....

Here is the context... this was the FOOD offering, NOTHING about the tithe....

Num 28:1-7 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, (2) "Command the people of Israel and say to them, 'My offering, my food for my food offerings, my pleasing aroma, you shall be careful to offer to me at its appointed time.' (3) And you shall say to them, This is the food offering that you shall offer to the LORD: two male lambs a year old without blemish, day by day, as a regular offering. (4) The one lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight; (5) also a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with a quarter of a hin of beaten oil. (6) It is a regular burnt offering, which was ordained at Mount Sinai for a pleasing aroma, a food offering to the LORD. (7) Its drink offering shall be a quarter of a hin for each lamb. In the Holy Place you shall pour out a drink offering of strong drink to the LORD.

 
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StormyOne

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Jacob poured oil on the stone he had set up (Gen_28:18) in honor of the Deity and consecrated the spot. Jacob later (Gen_35:14) set up a pillar where God had revealed Himself and poured drink offerings and oil upon it. Probably wine was used. Drink offerings accompanied many of the sacrifices (Exo_29:40, Exo_29:41). None could be poured upon the altar of incense (Exo_30:9). At all set feasts the Drink offerings must be presented (Lev_23:13, Lev_23:18, Lev_23:37). The Nazirite was not exempt (Num_6:15, Num_6:17). Wine and oil must accompany all votive and freewill offerings (Num_15:4, Num_15:5, Num_15:7, Num_15:10, Num_15:24); the continual burnt offering (Num_28:7, Num_28:8); sabbaths (Num_28:9, Num_28:10) and all the other set feasts (Nu 28:14-31; 29:6-39, passim). That drink offerings were common among the heathen is shown by Deu_32:38.


So you are mixing up what God required for the drink offerings with what He gave them permission to do when they were taking their tithe to the storehouse....
 
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PaleHorse

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StormyOne said:
Out of context Palehorse.....

Here is the context... this was the FOOD offering, NOTHING about the tithe....

Num 28:1-7 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, (2) "Command the people of Israel and say to them, 'My offering, my food for my food offerings, my pleasing aroma, you shall be careful to offer to me at its appointed time.' (3) And you shall say to them, This is the food offering that you shall offer to the LORD: two male lambs a year old without blemish, day by day, as a regular offering. (4) The one lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight; (5) also a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with a quarter of a hin of beaten oil. (6) It is a regular burnt offering, which was ordained at Mount Sinai for a pleasing aroma, a food offering to the LORD. (7) Its drink offering shall be a quarter of a hin for each lamb. In the Holy Place you shall pour out a drink offering of strong drink to the LORD.

Read further and you'll find that it is the same exact event - and the offering was poured out, not consumed. Check your context again.
 
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StormyOne

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PaleHorse said:
Read further and you'll find that it is the same exact event - and the offering was poured out, not consumed. Check your context again.

No it is not... one event (Deut) God is telling them what to do when they are taking their tithes to the storehouse and its too far for them...

In Numbers God is outlining how He wants the offerings of the lambs, bulls and drink done....there is NO mention of tithe in chapter 28 of Numbers... Likewise there is no mention of anything except what to do with the tithe in Deut 14.... they are not the same event or the same issue... two separate things....
 
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PaleHorse

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StormyOne said:
The bible says that God told them to EAT it.... not pour it out on the ground.....They were to rejoice and eat.... it was not an offering it was a celebration...
No, it doesn't say that God told them to eat it. You are assuming that "appetite" is refering to "hunger". What is actually being said is that can purchase with the tithe anything they "desire". Read the KJV and you'll see this is so.
"And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, ..."

The word sha'al is defined in the Strong's Lexicon as:


1) to ask, enquire, borrow, beg

a) (Qal)

1) to ask, ask for

2) to ask (as a favour), borrow

3) to enquire, enquire of

4) to enquire of, consult (of deity, oracle)

5) to seek

b) (Niphal) to ask for oneself, ask leave of absence

c) (Piel)

1) to enquire, enquire carefully

2) to beg, practise beggary

d) (Hiphil)


1) to be given on request 2) to grant, make over to, let (one) ask (successfully) or give or lend on request (then) grant or make over to


No mention of eating or the word meaning "hunger".

You are misreading the text.

And while your copy/pasting skills are admirable, they are hardly good for discussing the texts one at a time - which I stipulated for the sake of a clear discussion.
 
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PaleHorse

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StormyOne said:
No it is not... one event (Deut) God is telling them what to do when they are taking their tithes to the storehouse and its too far for them...

In Numbers God is outlining how He wants the offerings of the lambs, bulls and drink done....there is NO mention of tithe in chapter 28 of Numbers... Likewise there is no mention of anything except what to do with the tithe in Deut 14.... they are not the same event or the same issue... two separate things....
The tithe (in Deut) is what was used to purchase the items discussed in Numbers. Check your commentaries.
 
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PaleHorse

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SnowBird77 said:
Let me get this straight. God wants alcohol poured out as an offering to Him, but He won't have you drink it. Is this the teaching being presented?
Yes, there was a HUGE difference in what could be used as an offering (especially a free-will offering) as opposed to what a person was permitted to consume.
Verses in question: Deu 14:22-27 You shall truly tithe all the increase of your seed that the field brings forth year by year. (23) And you shall eat before Jehovah your God in the place which He shall choose to place His name there, the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the first-born of your herds and of your flocks, so that you may learn to fear Jehovah your God always. (24) And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry it, or if the place is too far from you, which Jehovah your God shall choose to set His name there, when Jehovah your God has blessed you, (25) then you shall turn it into silver and bind up the silver in your hand, and shall go to the place which Jehovah your God shall choose. (26) And you shall pay that silver for whatever your soul desires, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatever your soul desires. And you shall eat there before Jehovah your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household (27) and the Levite within your gates, you shall not forsake him, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.

The context of this verse is needed to clarify the thought of the writer.

It is apparent from verse 22 that he is talking about the use of the second tithe. "Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase." the first tithe had already been specifically allotted to the Levites (Numbers 18:21,24). Some of this second tithe was to be given to the strangers and the widows (Deuteronomy 14:29, 26,12-15).

In verse 23, God told the Israelities to journey to the place He would designate and present the tithe to Him there-no doubt, at the tabernacle. In verses 24 and 25, they were permitted to change the corn, cattle, etc., into the equivalent cash if the way was too long to travel with produce and herds.

In verse 26, God gave instruction for the money to be turned back into an offering for Him after reaching the holy place. But instead of prescribing the exact offering, He told them they could present whatever they desired. Some have been confused by God's listing strong drink among the other offerings that they were permitted.

****But please notice that this wine was not to be drunk-it was to be poured out as an offering before the Lord. God described the act in Numbers 28:7, "In the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the Lord for a drink offering."****

Offering of course means something you present before God. It's not something you personally ingest.

Take note that all the items suggested by God for the money to be invested in were offerings to Him. Some have stumbled over the wording, "whatsoever thy soul lusteth after" and "whatsoever thy soul desireth." Remember that God is talking to his faithful people who are tithing. He assumes that they are not going to desire evil things as an offering to Him. The Psalmist said, "Delight thyself also in the Lord: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart." Psalm 37:4. For God's people, those desires would be their own choice of acceptable offerings and gifts to present to their Lord.

I only cite these other verse to show this point on the offerings question - not the imbibing of alcohol one.
 
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StormyOne

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PaleHorse said:
The tithe (in Deut) is what was used to purchase the items discussed in Numbers. Check your commentaries.

Two separate directives... one for the offerings... one for the tithe.... you have not made the connection or shown thus far that the directive God gave for the food offering or the drink offering was applicable to the tithe...

I have provided the text that says specifically that they were to turn the tithe into money take that money, but whatever they wanted.... sheep, oxen, drink whatever and then eat and rejoice....

Ball is in your court...
 
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awesumtenor

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PaleHorse said:
The tithe (in Deut) is what was used to purchase the items discussed in Numbers. Check your commentaries.

Matthew Henry Commentary says this for Deut 14:22-29:

We have here a part of the statute concerning tithes. The productions of the ground were twice tithed, so that, putting both together, a fifth part was devoted to God out of their increase, and only four parts of five were for their own common use; and they could not but own they paid an easy rent, especially since God’s part was disposed of to their own benefit and advantage. The first tithe was for the maintenance of their Levites, who taught them the good knowledge of God, and ministered to them in holy things; this is supposed as anciently due, and is entailed upon the Levites as an inheritance, by that law, Num. 18:24, etc. But it is the second tithe that is here spoken of, which was to be taken out of the remainder when the Levites had had theirs.

I. They are here charged to separate it, and set it apart for God: Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of they seed, v. 22. The Levites took care of their own, but the separating of this was left to the owners themselves, the law encouraging them to be honest by reposing a confidence in them, and so trying their fear of God. They are commanded to tithe truly, that is, to be sure to do it, and to do it faithfully and carefully, that God’s part might not be diminished either with design or by oversight. Note, We must be sure to give God his full dues out of our estates; for, being but stewards of them, it is required that we be faithful, as those that must give account.

II. They are here directed how to dispose of it when they had separated it. Let every man lay by as God prospers him and gives him success, and then let him lay out in pious uses as God gives him opportunity; and it will be the easier to lay out, and the proportion will be more satisfying, when first we have laid by. This second tithe may be disposed of,

1. In works of piety, for the first two years after the year of release. They must bring it up, either in kind or in the full value of it, to the place of the sanctuary, and there must spend it in holy feasting before the Lord. If they could do it with any convenience, they must bring it in kind (v. 23); but, if not, they might turn it into money (v. 24, 25), and that money must be laid out in something to feast upon before the Lord. The comfortable cheerful using of what God has given us, with temperance and sobriety, is really the honouring of God with it. Contentment, holy joy, and thankfulness, make every meal a religious feast. The end of this law we have (v. 23): That thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always; it was to keep them right and firm to their religion, (1.) By acquainting them with the sanctuary, the holy things, and the solemn services that were there performed. What they read the appointment of their Bibles, it would do them good to see the observance of in the tabernacle; it would make a deeper impression upon them, which would keep them out of the snares of the idolatrous customs. Note, It will have a good influence upon our constancy in religion never to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, Heb. 10:25. By the comfort of the communion of saints, we may be kept to our communion with God. (2.) By using them to the most pleasant and delightful services of religion. Let them rejoice before the Lord, that they may learn to fear him always. The more pleasure we find in the ways of religion the more likely we shall be to persevere in those ways. One thing they must remember in their pious entertainments—to bid their Levites welcome to them. Thou shalt not forsake the Levites (v. 27): "Let him never be a stranger to thy table, especially when thou eatest before the Lord.’’

2. Every third year this tithe must be disposed of at home in works of charity (v. 28, 29): Lay it up within they own gates, and let it be given to the poor, who, knowing the provision this law had made for them, no doubt would come to seek it; and, that they might make the poor familiar to them and not disdain their company, they are here directed to welcome them to their houses. "Thither let them come, and eat and be satisfied.’’ In this charitable distribution of the second tithe they must have an eye to the poor ministers and add to their encouragement by entertaining them, then to poor strangers (not only for the supply of their necessities, but to put a respect upon them, and so to invite them to turn proselytes), and then to the fatherless and widow, who, though perhaps they might have a competent maintenance left them, yet could not be supposed to live so plentifully and comfortably as they had done in months past, and therefore they were to countenance them, and help to make them easy by inviting them to this entertainment. God has a particular care for widows and fatherless, and he requires that we should have the same. It is his honour, and will be ours, to help the helpless. And if we thus serve God, and do good with what we have, it is promised here that the Lord our God will bless us in all the work of our hand. Note, (1.) The blessing of God is all in all to our outward prosperity, and, without that blessing, the work of our hands which we do will bring nothing to pass. (2.) The way to obtain that blessing is to be diligent and charitable. The blessing descends upon the working hand: "Except not that God should bless thee in thy idleness and love of ease, but in all the work of they hand.’’ It is the hand of the diligent, with the blessing of God upon it, that makes rich, Prov. 10:4, 22. And it descends upon the giving hand; he that thus scatters certainly increases, and the liberal soul will be made fat. It is an undoubted truth, though little believed, that to be charitable to the poor, and to be free and generous in the support of religion and any good work, is the surest and safest way of thriving. What is lent to the Lord will be repaid with abundant interest. See Eze. 44:30.


It supports StormyOne's argument.


In His service,
Mr. J
 
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StormyOne

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Nope Palehorse that dog won't hunt.... you have attempted to introduce what God told them to do re: offerings and apply it to the tithing directive...

They took the tithe to the storehouse remember... they were not taking the tithe to the tabernacle necessarily.... The proof text method cannot work in this instance because God specifically told them to rejoice and consume... He did not tell them to do that with any of the food or drink offerings....
 
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StormyOne

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In this case, commentaries aren't needed... the bible is clear. Numbers is talking about the offerings to the lord... Deut is talking about tithe and what can be done with it... Reading Numbers chapter 28 you have no mention of the tithe.... clearly if there was a principle to be taught, tithing would have been mentioned... but it is not...

In Deut 14 we have the food list of what can and cannot be eaten, then in the last part of that chapter it deals with how the tithe is to be handled... two separate issues.... at least that is how I read it.....
 
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StormyOne

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Num 18:26-32 "Moreover, you shall speak and say to the Levites, 'When you take from the people of Israel the tithe that I have given you from them for your inheritance, then you shall present a contribution from it to the LORD, a tithe of the tithe. (27) And your contribution shall be counted to you as though it were the grain of the threshing floor, and as the fullness of the winepress. (28) So you shall also present a contribution to the LORD from all your tithes, which you receive from the people of Israel. And from it you shall give the LORD's contribution to Aaron the priest. (29) Out of all the gifts to you, you shall present every contribution due to the LORD; from each its best part is to be dedicated.' (30) Therefore you shall say to them, 'When you have offered from it the best of it, then the rest shall be counted to the Levites as produce of the threshing floor, and as produce of the winepress. (31) And you may eat it in any place, you and your households, for it is your reward in return for your service in the tent of meeting. (32) And you shall bear no sin by reason of it, when you have contributed the best of it. But you shall not profane the holy things of the people of Israel, lest you die.'"

Notice that the Levites get the leftover grain and the what is left from the "winepress." Now what were they doing with a winepress? Isn't a winepress used in making wine?

some interesting info here:

2. Wine Presses:

Many of the ancient wine presses remain to the present day. Ordinarily they consisted of two rectangular or circular excavations, hewn (Isa_5:2) in the solid rock to a depth of 2 or 3 feet. Where possible one was always higher than the other and they were connected by a pipe or channel. Their size, of course, varied greatly, but the upper vat was always wider and shallower than the lower and was the press proper, into which the grapes were thrown, to be crushed by the feet of the treaders (Isa_63:1-3, etc.). The juice flowed down through the pipe into the lower vat, from which it was removed into jars (Hag_2:16) or where it was allowed to remain during the first fermentation.

Many modifications of this form of the press are found. Where there was no rock close to the surface, the vats were dug in the earth and lined with stonework or cement, covered with pitch. Or the pressvat might be built up out of any material (wood was much used in Egypt), and from it the juice could be conducted into a sunken receptacle or into jars. Not infrequently a third (rarely a fourth) vat might be added between the other two, in which a partial settling and straining could take place. Wooden beams are often used either to finish the pressing or to perform the whole operation, and holes into which the ends of these beams fitted can still be seen. A square of wood attached to the beam bore down on the pile of grapes, while the free end of the beam was heavily weighted. In the simpler presses the final result was obtained by piling stones on the mass that remained after the treaders had finished their work.



3. Grading:

It is a general principle of wine-making (compare that "the less the pressure the better the product"; therefore the liquid that flowed at the beginning of the process, especially that produced by the mere weight of the grapes themselves when piled in heaps, was carefully kept separate from that which was obtained only under heavy pressure. A still lower grade was made by adding water to the final refuse the mixture to ferment. Possibly this last concoction is sometimes meant by the word "vinegar" (ḥōmec).



4. Fermentation:

In the climate of Palestine fermentation begins almost immediately, frequently on the same day for juice pressed out in the morning, but never later than the next day. At first a slight foam appears on the surface of the liquid, and from that moment, according to Jewish tradition, it is liable to the wine-tithe (Ma‛ăsērōth 1 7). The action rapidly becomes more violent, and while it is in progress the liquid must be kept in jars or in a vat, for it would burst even the newest and strongest of wine-skins (Job_32:19). Within about a week this violent fermentation subsides, and the wine is transferred to other jars or strong wine-skins (Mar_2:22 and parallel's), in which it undergoes the secondary fermentation. At the bottom of the receptacles collects the heavier matter or "lees" (שׁמרים, shemārīm, Psa_75:8 ("dregs"); Jer_48:11; Zep_1:12 in Isa_25:6 the word is used for the wine as well), from which the "wines on the lees" gather strength and flavor.

At the end of 40 days it was regarded as properly "wine" and could be offered as a drink offering (‛Ēdhuyyōth 6 1). The practice after this point seems to have varied, no doubt depending on the sort of wine that was being made. Certain kinds were left undisturbed to age "on their lees" and were thought to be all the better for so doing, but before they were used it was necessary to strain them very carefully. So Isa_25:6, 'A feast of wine aged on the lees, thoroughly strained.' But usually leaving the wine in the fermentation vessels interfered with its improvement or caused it to degenerate. So at the end of 40 days it was drawn off into other jars (for storage, 1Ch_27:27, etc.) or wine-skins (for transportation, Jos_9:4, etc.). So Jer_48:11 : 'Moab has been undisturbed from his youth, and he has rested on his lees and has not been emptied from vessel to vessel.... Therefore his flavor remains unchanged (or "becomes insipid") and his scent is unimproved (or "lacks freshness")'; compare Zep_1:12.

 
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tall73

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Hence the reason I said initially you will have a hard time proving the Bible forbids drinking. It does have a problem with drunkenness though.

A simple search on the word winepress shows that it was quite acceptable for Israelites to have them, and that there is reference to them bringing tithe from the winepress in Numbers and Deuteronomy. Now a tithe is the first part, so what did they do with the rest?

I think we know what they did with it.

So again, the Bible portrays a dim view of drinking in general because of its tendencies to lose control. But it does not forbid it. And in cases of celebration, there seem to be some endorsement of it.
 
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StormyOne

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Agreed Tall, and I am NOT endorsing consuming alcohol, however Palehorse's position lacks scriptural support. The passage in Numbers has been pulled out of its context and applied to a separate directive regarding tithing in Deut.

The method which we arrive at truth determines how valid that truth is.... Again I agree that it may be better to stay away from alcohol, but the bible frowns on drunkeness and not consumption.... Now had that been Palehorse's initial premise then we would be in agreement....
 
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