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Great verses! They are not particularly speaking of the church. (As a dispensationalist I don't see the church in the Old Testament.)At the time of Him coming in glory is when we shall be like Him. Isaiah places the scene as when the wicked will hide in the rocks. John saw this event in the time of the 6th seal.
Isaiah 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isaiah 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isaiah 2:10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
The underlying point is that those who tend to link together the Day of the Lord references to the Scriptures specific to the coming of the Lord Jesus for His church, are more likely to blur the distinction between Israel and the church that dispensationalists tend to keep separate. It was a general comment.So who actually claims to see the church in the Old Testament?
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There is Satan's time of wrath - the great tribulation. After that comes the wrath of God.
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So you are saying that the Day of the LORD and the Day of Christ cannot be naming the same time? So is not Christ the LORD?The underlying point is that those who tend to link together the Day of the Lord references to the Scriptures specific to the coming of the Lord Jesus for His church, are more likely to blur the distinction between Israel and the church that dispensationalists tend to keep separate. It was a general comment.
I was raised believing in this rapture/premillenial dispensationalism business. The evidence of the effects of premillenial dispensationalism on many people is far from good (i.e. anxiety, worry, and depression). I've been there. You convince yourself it's practically pointless to do anything because the 'rapture' will happen soon.
1) We're told in Matthew, I believe, to not worry.
2) Live in the moment- do not constantly live in the future- as that is no life. Persevere in the faith. Take each day as it comes. Plan for the future, but don't obsess over it.
3) No matter what this life may bring us, God will give us a way through it. Do not despair.
4) Fear doesn't come from God. If you're being taught things that cause you to fear (and the 'rapture' doctrine causes much fear and worry in a lot of people), then you need to question whether you're being taught correctly. Some groups take a grain of truth and warp it beyond recognition.
The rapture is a convoluted doctrine invented in the 19th century and made popular in America with the advent of the Scofield Study Bible- while the second coming is a straightforward thing mentioned in scripture that all Christians believe. They are NOT the same thing.
Generally, in churches that speak explicitly of the 'rapture', they consider that a separate event from the Second Coming of Christ. The rapture is this secret event where Christians are whisked away, escaping things while the world goes to pot. So, you essentially have the secret Second Coming of Christ and the visible Second Second Coming of Christ according to most 'rapture' believers.
This is not a view that is accepted by historical Christianity. We call it dispensationalism- and most adhere to the premillenialist variety- and it is commonly attributed to John Nelson Darby- and has only really become popular since his time. The majority of the world's Christians don't believe this and never have historically.
If you think all of that is confusing- you're not alone. I was raised with that view- and I'm pretty sure I still don't understand it. Reading the scriptures used to justify said belief and looking at all the various charts out there (they used to and probably still make confusing flow chart looking things to explain this) doesn't really help. I only think it makes things more confusing.
People confuse the 'rapture' doctrine with the Second Coming all the time- and the difference needs to be pointed out for the sake of clarity. Half the time in these threads- there isn't a lot of distinction made- but a whole lot of confusion. To reject the 'rapture' is not to necessarily reject the other. BTW, how can you call something the Second Coming- when it is really the third (according to the premill view) anyway?
Let's be honest- when most people think or talk about the 'rapture' they don't mean the Second Coming of Christ (which all Christians believe). 'Rapture' is code for premillenial dispensationalism. If you're a Christian who thinks 'rapture' theology is only referring to the Second Coming- then you're taking on language that doesn't really mean what you think it means.
I don't see the logic linking some of these statement; but I am satisfied that the passages (John 14; 1 Thess. 4) which speak of the Lord Jesus' coming for His church in the air are different from the passages which speak of His coming in power and glory on earth.So you are saying that the Day of the LORD and the Day of Christ cannot be naming the same time? So is not Christ the LORD?
The claim that this doctrine is only about 200 years old, is completely false.I agree that the rapture doctrine is not Biblical. It is instructive to note that belief in a "rapture" developed only about 200 years ago. Without getting into the details, I suggest belief in a rapture arose due to misunderstanding key Biblical / culture-specific images. For example, I believe the scholars will tell us that the concept of meeting a returning king "in the air" actually referred to the people coming out from behind the city walls and greeting the king "in the open air of the fields outside the city".
Not the church in Deuteronomy; because Ephesians speaks of the church as a revealed mystery. In the Old Testament one does find some more general references to the Gentiles coming into blessings.Not sure what a "dispensationalist" is, so will check and get back to you later. The church though was prophesied in the book of Deuteronomy. Chapter 32 verse 21 tells how Israel made God jealous - so now God will make Israel jealous by having a new people.
This people is shown in Romans 10-11 to be the church.
Deuteronomy 32:21
At the end of this song prophecy comes "avenge His servants" foretold in Revelation 19.
There is more too, but I'll go see what that belief means first.
Since the dispensational distinctions on which it is based are found in Scripture, then it can hardly be something that is extra-Biblical.The claim that this doctrine is only about 200 years old, is completely false.
As old as the Apostles, in fact!Yea! It's not quite that old.
Meanwhile, back in the real world...I have already posted, in this very thread, conclusive proof that this doctrine indeed has its roots in some of the earliest Christian documents known.
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