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The "Rapture Hoax" Theory

ac28

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Ignoring scripture that destroys one's doctrine is most certainly an effective way to get a doctrine to work....
That's what right division is all about, although it's for a much more noble purpose than the accusatory one you mentioned above. Somewhere, I have about a 30 page list of "things that differ" between the Acts period and the post-Acts period. Here are a few. At present, I'm just showing you why I have rightly divided the 2 sets of epistles.

The main difference, of course, is the calling. The difference is huge. The calling in Acts was, at best, the New Jerusalem in the created heavens. The calling in the Post-Acts books is to where Christ is now hid in God, in the uncreated heavenly places. I've already given the scriptures for this many times. These facts alone are enough to eliminate the Acts epistles, dispensationally, through the principle of right division.

---The church is different in the 2 sets of epistles.
---Acts was 100% involved with the conversion of Israel and the saving of Gentiles was secondary. Ephesians is 100% Gentiles and Israel doesn't even exist after Acts.
---The gifts were still on display at the very end of Acts, but they are totally missing after Acts.
---And on and on and on.

The purpose of testing things that differ is to show you what to rightly divide. If 2 entire ministries conflict with each other, they can't both apply to me and only the most excellent one should be approved. That's right division in action. That's all I'm interested in - what happens to me. I am 1000% convinced that nothing during Acts, dispensationally speaking, applies to me. It doesn't apply to you either. Maybe some day the crust over your eyes will be removed and you will see this very obvious truth.
 
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BABerean2

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Maybe some day the crust over your eyes will be removed and you will see this very obvious truth.

That happened about 6 years ago when I could not get my Bible to line up with the doctrine that John Darby brought to America, about the time of the Civil War.

So far, I have not seen any mutation of his doctrine that would make me reverse that decision.

.
 
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ac28

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Your responses prove that you don't have the foggiest idea what I've been talking about. I realize that this is the 1st time you've ever heard this stuff. I would like to say that about 95% of what I've told you is standard A28D doctrine. This calling in Eph was first realized in the late 1890's or early 1900's by Charles H. Welch, the author of about 20,000 pages in books on this and related subjects. Believe it or not, there are few overlaps in his writings. I have owned about 2/3 of his books for 25 years. Excluding Paul, I consider Welch the greatest Bible scholar in history. All of Welch's writings are available for free downloads here:
http://www.charleswelch.net/

Darby never saw the big picture. I would agree that A9D is a mutation of A2D. A28D is a completely different deal and nothing that Darby or Holden or Scofield or Larkin or Stam or Baker or O'hair ever said enters into it. The crux of Acts 28 is the different calling in Eph, etc. No other group in the world sees this extremely obvious calling or wants to see it.

Can't you see that the calling in Ephesians is different than the calling in Acts? That the Gentiles' calling in Acts was, at best, a place in the created heavens (NJ), and the calling in Ephesians is the uncreated Far Above All Heavens, where Christ now sits at the right hand of God? If the calling is different, everything is different.

Can't you see that, in Paul's last 7 epistles, that Israel is essentially non-existent. Whereas, Paul's last scene i Acts 28 was his preaching all day to the Pharisees. The book of Acts is mainly a history of Paul preaching to Israel, mainly in the synagogues. In Israel, Paul's preaching is 100% to the Gentiles.

Can't you see that, all the way through Acts, the gifts of the Spirit were still active (Acts 28:3-6, Acts 28:8-9), but in Paul's last 7 epistles, the gifts are non-existent? 2 Timothy 4:20, 1 Timothy 5:22-23.

Can't you see that the dividing line between Paul's 1st 7 and last 7 books occurs in Acts 28. That is when the curse against Israel from Isaiah 6:9-10 was pronounced towards Israel for the 7th (the number of completion) and last time in the Bible Acts 28:25-27. By ignoring this, you're saying it's meaningless in my argument. If you do ignore it, what does it really mean?

Can't you see that, in Acts 28 (immediately after Isa 6 was quoted to the Pharisees), the salvation of God (I think this is Jesus Christ) is taken from Israel (John 4:22) and given to the Gentiles? Acts 28:28.

Can't you see that believing A2D or A9D or Covenant Theology or New Covenant Theologywhatever else, has absolutely no benefit for the believer of these doctrines, other than false pride. Whereas, if A28D is right, the benefit is a much, much, much better resurrection/translation. Wouldn't it behoove you to check the A28D doctrine a lot closer, just to make sure you aren't missing the boat?
 
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BABerean2

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Can't you see that believing A2D or A9D or Covenant Theology or New Covenant Theologywhatever else, has absolutely no benefit for the believer of these doctrines, other than false pride.

God made a promise in Genesis 3:15 that the seed of the woman would undo what happened in the garden.


God promised Abraham that that through his seed the Messiah would come.

In Jeremiah 31:31-34 we find the promise of the New Covenant of the Messiah.

Jesus said he would be the one to fulfill the New Covenant in His Blood at the Last Supper. Matthew 26:28.

We find 3,000 of "the house of Israel" who accepted the New Covenant promised to Jeremiah on the day of Pentecost.

We find the New Covenant fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13.

It is this New Covenant found throughout the scriptures of the New Testament.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood, which ratifies the New Covenant, my blood shed on behalf of many, so that they may have their sins forgiven. (CJB)

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


If you are not part of the New Covenant, you better figure out why and make the correction...

.
 
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ac28

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If you are not part of the New Covenant, you better figure out why and make the correction...

Why?

The old covenant was conditional. It required Israel to agree to it, to do it, and to live the law. The new covenant was un-conditional. I haven't seen any restrictions on it whether a person believes it or not. If you can, show me where a Gentile must believe it to get it. I see no tangible additional benefit in believing that it is for me.

I actually think the NC is 100% for Israel, according to all the scripture concerning it. It may have also applied to the Gentiles in Acts, since they were all tied to Israel's program, but I can't see that as being the case. The entire purpose of the NC was to infuse the Spirit into the Israelite's inward parts so they could keep the law, which they couldn't keep in the flesh. Israel will have to keep the law, while they are in Jerusalem, until God becomes all in all. This doesn't apply today because there is no Israel.

In Eph, there is no Israel. Everyone in Eph, etc., are Gentiles. No exceptions. No covenants. Today, the Gentiles aren't those that feared God, like most that were saved in Acts, those proselytes that attended the synagogues. The Gentiles today are those former scumbags that used to worship rocks.

The only verses in the NT that contain both of the words, "blood" and "covenant or testament" occur during Christ's earthly ministry, which was totally to Israel and, the Book of Hebrews, which was written to WHO?......THE HEBREWS!
 
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BABerean2

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Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
("thou" would be the Gentiles, who are the wild olive tree grafted into the cultivated olive tree of Israelites.)


Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (so= Greek "houto"= in this manner)

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Mat 26:28 For this is my blood, which ratifies the New Covenant, my blood shed on behalf of many, so that they may have their sins forgiven. (CJB)

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



The infusion of the Holy Spirit is not just for Israelites.

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
.
 
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ac28

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You don't attempt to answer or discuss anything I mention. You continue to post the same covenant scriptures that have absolutely nothing to do with me.

You know nothing that I need to know. Your conclusions are non-scriptural and a huge waste of time.
 
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BABerean2

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You are either in the New Covenant Church of Christ or you are not.
Your eternal destiny rests upon this fact.


.
 
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ac28

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You are either in the New Covenant Church of Christ or you are not.
Your eternal destiny rests upon this fact.


.
Show scripture for this. Chapter and verse, please.

Your silence speaks volumes. You can't provide a verse(s), can you?

I just checked and the 2 words, covenant (or, testament) and church, don't appear together in any verse in the Bible.
 
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BABerean2

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Show scripture for this. Chapter and verse, please.

Your silence speaks volumes. You can't provide a verse(s), can you?

I just checked and the 2 words, covenant (or, testament) and church, don't appear together in any verse in the Bible.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

.
 
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ac28

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I don't see either of the words, covenant or testament. The covenant doesn't enter into Paul's gospel, 1 Cor 15:1-4
 
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BABerean2

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The covenant doesn't enter into Paul's gospel, 1 Cor 15:1-4

Wrong.
1Co_11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

The Greek word for "testament" is the same as "covenant" here.
G1242

διαθήκη
diathēkē
dee-ath-ay'-kay
From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.


2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Your interpretation of Galatians 1:6-9 would have Paul damning what Peter taught as another Gospel. Therefore, it cannot be the correct interpretation.


.
 
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ac28

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Like I said, the word covenant (or testament) doesn't enter into Paul's gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


This is Paul's gospel, in full. Where does it say covenant of testament?

The error seems to stem from the erroneous belief that there are 2 New Covenants. When people saw that the NC in Jeremiah was 100% to Israel, they invented another NC for Gentiles. This also provided an excuse to include the Jewish Lord's supper as an ordinance for the Gentile churches.

The Church which is His Body, where Christ is the Head, only exists in Paul's last 7 books. Unlike the Gentiles in Paul's Acts books, the Gentiles in the post-Acts books have zero ties to Abraham. They also aren't bound to any ordinances like every saved Gentile was during Acts - Colossians 2:20. For the 1st time in history, the Gentiles today are totally free from Israel.

As an aside, how do you avoid Romans 9:4 and Galatians 4:24?
 
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BABerean2

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The Church which is His Body, where Christ is the Head, only exists in Paul's last 7 books.

Really...

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

.
 
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ac28

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You really surprised me when you posted those verses. I foolishly thought you were more knowledgeable than that. Finally, you have shown your true colors - that you know nothing. Are you really so unknowledgeable that you believe.the church in Mt 16 is the same as the church in Paul's post-Acts epistles?
 
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BABerean2

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Maybe Christ and I are confused, based on what you are saying...

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


.
 
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Biblewriter

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I quoted a number of scriptures that speak of trumpets unquestionably being blown after the Lord has returned. So this conclusion, which you claim is "obvious," is based entirely in the interpretation you choose to place on scripture, not on scripture.
 
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jerry kelso

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ac28,

It seems I have missed this post.

1. Peter did indeed understand the KOH from the old testament scriptures and being a disciple of Jesus who taught this message as well as John the Baptist.

2. Peter and the disciples asked Jesus in Acts 1:6 about the restoration of the KOH but Jesus said in verse 7 it wasn't for them to know.

3. The new covenant with the Israel program concerning the restitution of all things so the would become the head of the nations was not in the book of Act.

4. Peter saw similar signs and he was basically talking to basically the jewish nation left from Jesus ministry.

5. The new covenant happened despite Israel's rejection in Matthew 23:37-39 at the end of Christ ministry. Matthew 24:1-2 Jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and the nation which did happen in 70 A.D.

6. The church began officially at Calvary and this is true because Paul said in Ephesians 2:14-16; middle wall of partition being broken down between jew and gentile which was the mystery of the church Ephesians 3:3.

7. Because of gradual revelation it did not come to fruition till Acts 10 when

8. Peter got the vision of the clean and unclean and it also came through

9. Paul's revelations in the desert Galatians 2:1-2 and all the apostles got revelation through the Holy Spirit and prophecy Ephesians 3:5.

10. Paul and Peter preached the same message of the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection for that was and still is and will always be the new covenant and the only way to be saved.

11. Peter was strong to the ministry to the jews because of the KOH message under the new covenant and not Moses covenant which was the old covenant.

12. Paul was strong to the gentiles so they could understand the new covenant and their role in carrying the gospel.

13. Both Peter and Paul still had jewish and gentile converts and vice versa under the same covenant of the death, burial and resurrection. Acts 4:2 shows that Peter and the apostles were preaching the death and resurrection because that is what they were always getting into trouble with from the jewish leaders who were still stuck in the old covenant mindset.

14. Peter still majored on the KOH message and Paul knew that the church of jew and gentile would still be leaders in the future KOH and yet he knew about the jews covenant was still valid and would happen just like Peter knew and Romans 9 he tells that God had not forsaken his chosen people of the jewish nation and that their gifts and callings are without repentance and they will come into their promise as head of the nations just like Peter knew.

15. If the jews would have repented the KOH would have started but it was never prophesied that they would all accept Christ and they didn't. In the early church the nation didn't have a second chance because they had already rejected Christ before and they were never prophesied to do it before 70 A.D. or that period of time was for the KOH to start because Christ said it wasn't for them to know right before his ascension and right before the Day of Pentecost. So your theory is just conjecture and a hypothetical and an opinion.

16. Christ came to save the world and to save gentiles and to have the church propagate the gospel. It took some time for that to happen. One has to understand gradual revelation and what Christ said about the situation and not just what the apostles misunderstandings or yearnings were.

17. The book of Acts is important for us to understand how the church started and unfolded and the trouble that the jews had understanding about things concerning the switch from the old covenant of Moses to the
18. New Covenant of Jesus Christ and their position in their earthly calling and how they had to struggle with trying to understand the gentiles being on the same level ground as they which was not the exact case in the old testament and for the first 8 -10 years after the cross.

19. Paul realized the jews were not going to listen to him as a whole and so he went mainly to the gentile who would take in his message. Sadly, today in many realms of the church today those gentiles think they are above the jews and the jews need to become a gentile christian. At the same time there are jews that still want to proselyte gentiles too.

20. This is why it is important to understand the KOH message correctly in the gospels as well as the early church before Paul came along.

21. If one doesn't understand and keep separate the callings of the Physical-Spiritual Jewish nation and the church as a micro-organism of spiritual physical jews and gentiles and their heavenly calling. Both will have rulership positions in the earthly kingdom though in different positions and the church will also have rulership positions in the Universal Kingdom Of God which is the whole universe. The KOH is the earthly physical sphere that is the small earthly sphere in the whole Universal Kingdom Of God, the whole universe.

22. The whole bible is for us to understand in complete proper perspective. Also, the old testament concealed is the new testament revealed. Learn all the bible in its proper perspective to learn the real truth. Jerry Kelso
 
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BABerean2

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The new covenant with the Israel program concerning the restitution of all things so the would become the head of the nations was not in the book of Act.

That is because the New Covenant is not about any nation on this rotten, sin-cursed world.

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Christ said the kingdom would be taken from fleshly Israel and would be given to another nation bearing fruit.

1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


The New Covenant is made up of those in the Body of Christ and is not based on race.

In Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 12:24, and Hebrews 13:20 we find scripture that is in conflict with what you are saying.

Christ will be the head of all the nations.

.
 
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jerry kelso

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baberean2,

1. You say the new covenant is about a nation and then quote 1 Peter 2:9 a holy nation.
Then you say it is not of race and yet we are all a race though we are all a part of the one human race.

2. THE NEW COVENANT IS ABOUT SALVATION FOR EVERY MAN'S SOUL NO MATTER WHAT RACE THEY ARE.

3. THE NEW COVENANT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT POSITION ONE HAVES CONCERNING RULERSHIP.

4. THE WORKS OF BEING FAITHFUL WILL DETERMINE WHAT YOUR POSITION OF RULERSHIP IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

5. Christ will be the head of Earth and David will be king over Israel and the apostles will rule over the tribes of Israel and Israel will be at the head of the nations.

6. Once again your theory and wrong human reasoning is just that; a wrong theory and nothing based on scripture.

7. Now answer my question; do you believe that you can't help but sin everyday? If you don't answer I will have to assume that you do believe it. Jerry Kelso
 
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