The "Rapture Hoax" Theory

You don't need Darby or anyone else. Let the Holy Bible speak for itself:

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 KJV 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 KJV 9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 KJV 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Revelation 3:10 KJV Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

BABerean2 said:

Spiritual salvation has always been through faith on an individual basis, instead of a national basis or through bloodline.

You continue to replace Israel of the Promise with Israel of the Flesh in Romans 9:8.

The veil in the temple was ripped in half on the day of the Cross.
The Old covenant, the Levitical priesthood, the sacrifices and all of the Old Testament shadows were "finished" at Calvary.

The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.

The New Covenant made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.
God is not going back to the Old Covenant.

You cannot have someone under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11, without them being under the Grace of the New Covenant.

You are trying to distance yourself from Darby, while you are promoting the doctrine he brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

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baberean2,

1. Spiritual salvation was on the individual basis in the Jewish theocracy.

2. The national basis is all the individuals that make up the whole nation will receive the blessings of the covenant. When Israel rejected Christ they rejected Christ individually and nationally even though there were many who were saved.

3. So you have the wrong idea about the whole nation being saved. The whole nation has to be saved individually. So your argument is out of context and is just a dead horse you want to beat to death and make it say something and mean something that it doesn't in your context. You need to quit projecting your false accusation and start accepting the truth of God and what his scripture says and not what you think your poor deducing points to.

4. Israel of the promise will be the nation of the flesh who are saved and who will be at the head of the nations on earth Isaiah 2:2-4.

5. Romans 9:8 are talking about the children of the flesh physically who are children of the flesh spiritually. Christ will not accept anyone jew or gentile if they are not saved. So quit projecting your wrong opinions which you keep deducing as facts of what the scripture says.

6. The new covenant is everlasting because the death of the cross and Christ resurrection is the fullness of grace and glory and the goal was reached at the point in time. The blood of the covenant was for the whole world not just the jews. This doesn't do away with the covenant promises of the land and the kingdom through Abraham and David to the jewish people. There is no scripture that says the gentiles will rule the earthly kingdom at the head of the nations. You would have to spiritualize Isaiah 2:2-4, Isaiah 9:6-7 and many more passages.

7. No one is saying that God has to go back to the old covenant. That is just your wrong deduction to try and prove the scriptures wrong.

8. The jewish nation was under the law of Moses and had to perform it to be blessed and they were backslidden and had to repent and believe in Jesus as the Messiah in order to be saved. This had nothing to do with the finished work of Christ directly for Christ did not preach this message and the apostles didn't understand it at the end of Christ ministry and had to be reminded and helped fully after the resurrection.

9. The jews were prophesied to reject Christ and never that they would accept Christ. The KOH offer was legit otherwise Christ would not have offered it though he knew they would reject him and they did. So to question whether the Kingdom offer was valid or not or what if they had accepted is really a mute issue except for the fact that if that would have happened they still would have had to accept the finished work of Christ first and yes Christ would have still had to die for the whole world. The death on the cross would have to still happened in order for them to be perfected and the kingdom to start.

10. This didn't happen so it is a mute point and the truth is that the second time the jews will believe in the grace message of the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection Revelation 1:7.

11. Your whole logic is skewed because you want prove the scriptures wrong that go against you position and want to use me as a scape goat and a false advocate of the scriptures which is not true and you misunderstand the true position which I have stated and give your opinion of what I have said that is not accurate at all.

12. I am not distancing myself from Darby if he believes what I have told you. But I am trying to be apologetical and exegetically fair to the scriptures and what they say as being the fact. You are worse because you are outright showing your doctrinal Berean belief that is wrong to the scripture.

13. If you want to debate about Darby and what he says in context and the scriptures that is fine but I don't have to look at Darby to understand what I know and believe about dispensations as a stewardship and I understand the system as well.

14. You have no scriptural standing on your belief and I have proved it according to the scripture and you refuse to believe it. You are the one that most of the time has to put on your bible teacher and yet you want to accuse me of skating from Darby when I have showed that isn't true because I have hardly said or pointed out anything about Darby or Ryrie or Dake just to prove a point. So you are the one being hypocritical.
I stand amazed how unfair and biased your posts are on these points. Be fair and honest. Jerry kelso

357Magnum,

You've quoted a lot of scripture, but it's all worthless unless you tell us what points you're trying to make.

The whole proof of a pre-trib rapture must be started with the scriptural proof that the last trump of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is NOT the same as the 7th trumpet of Revelation. If you can't do that, anything you say is meaningless.

ac28 said:

357Magnum,

You've quoted a lot of scripture, but it's all worthless unless you tell us what points you're trying to make.

The whole proof of a pre-trib rapture must be started with the scriptural proof that the last trump of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is NOT the same as the 7th trumpet of Revelation. If you can't do that, anything you say is meaningless.

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ac28,

I gave you the reason why the last trump of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is not the same as the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Did you not read my post to you? Jerry Kelso

ac28 said:

357Magnum,

You've quoted a lot of scripture, but it's all worthless unless you tell us what points you're trying to make.

The whole proof of a pre-trib rapture must be started with the scriptural proof that the last trump of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is NOT the same as the 7th trumpet of Revelation. If you can't do that, anything you say is meaningless.

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This is backwards. What is needed is to prove from scripture that they are the same. And that is something you can not do.

Isaiah 27:13, Hosea 8:1, and Zechariah 9:14 all mention trumpets that will be blown after the Lord returns. So the last trump of 1 Corinthians 15:52 cannot mean the last trumpet that will ever be blown. it can only mean the last trumpet that will be blown at that time.

ac28 said:

357Magnum,

You've quoted a lot of scripture, but it's all worthless unless you tell us what points you're trying to make.

The whole proof of a pre-trib rapture must be started with the scriptural proof that the last trump of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is NOT the same as the 7th trumpet of Revelation. If you can't do that, anything you say is meaningless.

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Read and study the Scriptures for yourself. Scripture from the Holy Bible is never meaningless.

Isaiah 55:10-11 KJV 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

ac28 said:

357Magnum,

You've quoted a lot of scripture, but it's all worthless unless you tell us what points you're trying to make.

The whole proof of a pre-trib rapture must be started with the scriptural proof that the last trump of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is NOT the same as the 7th trumpet of Revelation. If you can't do that, anything you say is meaningless.

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ac28 and 357 magnum,

1. There are many trumpets that are concerning the feast involving the jews and there is one for the church.
The trump for the rapture of the church is one and the resurrection which involves the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is the righteous dead from Adam on till the Lord come back with them and they will be raised to incorruption first and the living righteous of the church age that are still on earth at that coming will be changed in a twinkling of an eye from corruptible to incorruptible bodies and will be caught up with the righteous dead and the Lord in the clouds. This is very plain in these three scriptures.


2. Matthew 24:29-31 says; Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

3. This is talking about the second coming and the tribes of the earth that mourn will be all those left on earth but mainly it is talking about the jewish elect which is the remnant of the jewish nation that will be scattered in Revelation 12:17 and regathered. So don't let the word "heaven" fool you into being where God dwells in the farthest point in the north of the universe.

4. Revelation 19:11-15 Christ and his armies from heaven clothed in fine linen, white and clean are coming out of heaven. All those from Adam through all the ages and through the end of the tribulation that were raptured to heaven of which the blessed dead will be those from Revelation 14:13 gone to heaven in Revelation 15:1-2 that sing the song of Moses and the lamb and are the ones that are in the first resurrection in Revelation 20 which says nothing about righteous living ones being caught up with them or even being in that resurrection.

5. How can the church be coming out of Heaven at the second coming to do battle at the second coming which is the battle of Armageddon Revelation 16; when it is the righteous dead who are coming back with Christ 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and the church is supposed to be coming from the earth to meet the dead in Christ and the Lord in the clouds 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17? Jerry kelso

The Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ are two separate events. Jesus Christ does not come all the way down to earth at the Rapture, rather He catches His Church up to meet Him in the air. Jesus Christ comes all the way down to the earth at His Second Coming. Another big difference: the Rapture is a joyous event, but the Second Coming is in great and holy wrath.

jerry kelso said:

ac28,

I gave you the reason why the last trump of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is not the same as the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Did you not read my post to you? Jerry Kelso

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I do read your posts but always take them with a grain of salt. I do the same with Biblewriter's so-called "proofs" - he's even worse than you are. I know that any proof you give concerning the rapture is a manipulated proof, although I know you can't see this. You are telling the Bible what is truth instead of allowing the Bible to tell you what is truth. Nothing you have ever said about the rapture is valid. It's 100% wishful thinking. The obvious interpretation of the so-called "rapture" verses in Thess and Cor is that they occur at the 2nd Coming. The saints go out to meet the Lord at His 2nd Coming and return to earth with Him. Anything else is totally fabricated.

It is also obvious that the last trump is the 7th trump in Revelation. When Paul mentioned the last trump, he knew that every reader or hearer would know exactly which last trump he was talking about. The only obvious last trump is the one in Revelation.

The way the Bible is written, one can "prove", at least to the ignorant, that any pre-conceived idea is true. The best example of this is Catholic doctrine. Probably 95% of what the the Romish Church says is fabricated, but I guarantee that a good Catholic scholar can "prove", although dishonestly, everything they say, using scripture. They've had 1800 years to perfect these lies. Rapture believers have only had 200 years to convince the ignorant of their lies, but they've been very successful at it. I'm not saying that this is intentional. The teachers always believe their own lies.

ac28 said:

I do read your posts but always take them with a grain of salt. I do the same with Biblewriter's so-called "proofs" - he's even worse than you are. I know that any proof you give concerning the rapture is a manipulated proof, although I know you can't see this. You are telling the Bible what is truth instead of allowing the Bible to tell you what is truth. Nothing you have ever said about the rapture is valid. It's 100% wishful thinking. The obvious interpretation of the so-called "rapture" verses in Thess and Cor is that they occur at the 2nd Coming. The saints go out to meet the Lord at His 2nd Coming and return to earth with Him. Anything else is totally fabricated.

It is also obvious that the last trump is the 7th trump in Revelation. When Paul mentioned the last trump, he knew that every reader or hearer would know exactly which last trump he was talking about. The only obvious last trump is the one in Revelation.

The way the Bible is written, one can "prove", at least to the ignorant, that any pre-conceived idea is true. The best example of this is Catholic doctrine. Probably 95% of what the the Romish Church says is fabricated, but I guarantee that a good Catholic scholar can "prove", although dishonestly, everything they say, using scripture. They've had 1800 years to perfect these lies. Rapture believers have only had 200 years to convince the ignorant of their lies, but they've been very successful at it. I'm not saying that this is intentional. The teachers always believe their own lies.

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ac28,

1. All you are doing is giving your opinion of what you think the bible says and proves.

2. There is nothing you said in that last post has any scripture at all.

3. You are the one saying your view is 100 percent etc and I haven't said that in that manner and I show the scripture and proper context and connect the scriptures together.

4. I Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 doesn't say the Lord raptures the saints from the earth and then comes out of heaven to do war with those one earth as one coming called the second coming. It says he brings the dead in Christ with him and they are raised to spiritual incorruption and then we on earth are raptured and are changed in the twinkling of an eye from corruption to incorruption of the body and this catching up of the living saints is to the Lord in the clouds of the sky. This is a joyous occasion that has been said before and the second coming in one of the armies of heaven coming out of heaven to do war.

5. I don't get my views from denominations for they will fail you and denominations are not scriptural but we have them and good christians in them and many have the right basic doctrines and some have correct church government but as a whole denominations were not designed by the apostles or God.

6. I am quoting the scripture and context and history and other things that make up the proper hermeneutics to rightly divide the word.

7. The reason you don't understand the 7th trump not being the last trump concerning the second coming is because you don't have a clue of how things unfold concerning end times or jewish history about trumpets and the feasts. You don't understand context about Revelation 11 and the 7 trumpets and what all involves things that happen in the days of the 7th trumpet. It cannot be the last trump except for that time in the tribulation. The 7 vials have to happen after the 7 trumpets so the last trump in 1 Corinthians and the great voices saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever will not be happening at that specific time.
For your view to be true you have to overlap and intertwine the seals, trumpets and the vials alongside each other.

8. The 7th seal is silence in heaven in Revelation 8:1. The 7th trumpet is the great voices proclaiming what will happen at the second coming in Revelation 11:15. The 7th vial is the battle of Armageddon Revelation 16:16-17.

9. The conclusion is said the reason for the silence in the 7th seal is because the saints are coming out heaven and the kingdoms of the world are becoming Christ because they are headed to the battle of Armageddon.
Now this is logical on the surface but there is a problem.

10. The silence in heaven is not because saints are coming out of heaven even though that is possible if it were talking about the silence of saints for there will be no silence in heaven at any time because the four beast worship day and night without ceasing according to Revelation 4 and 5.

11. In any case the silence in heaven is found in Revelation 8:2-6 is a picture of the 7 trumpets preparing to blow which shows they must blow one at a time so the silence would have to happen during all the trumpets blowing for a long time which wouldn't make no sense because it only happens supposedly when the 7th trumpet blows.
12. The picture of the preparation of the trumpet angels is a Yom Kippur service where there is silence for about a half hour for prayers of the saints.

13. This shows that Revelation 15 cannot be the last trump and the second coming happening at that time. Things that happen in the days of the 7th trumpet doesn't end with Christ coming back at Armageddon.
Revelation 10:7 the mystery of God should be finished was not the second coming of Christ for it was not a mystery. All the old testament testified about it and all the scriptures of the Day of the Lord is about the second coming of Christ.
The mystery of God is in the middle of the tribulation and in Revelation 12:10 when Satan is cast out of heaven as the accuser of the brethren which accused them before God day and night.
The battle of Armageddon is when the 7th vial is poured out which is after the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and the first 6 seals. So you only take what you think it literally means by what it appears without seeking the whole context on the subject and this is why you miss it.

14. Plain statements have to reconcile with the context. So your obvious statements about the last trump of 1 Corinthians 15 being the same as Revelation 11 is incorrect and your wrong understanding and wrong rendering of the context Jerry kelso

Jerry,

Why do you care about all of this rapture stuff? None of it pertains to you. Nothing in Acts or Paul's Acts books pertains to you, except for those doctrinal truths that are repeated in Paul's post-Acts books, such as Paul's gospel. The truth for you and me and everyone else today, dispensationally, is ONLY found in Paul's last 7 books.

Our hope today is, when Christ first appears in Glory, we will also appear with Him in Glory - Glory is a real place above the created heavens (Psalms 8:1) - the place where God was before the creation and the place where we believers are now hid in Christ, Who is hid in God - Colossians 3:3. I would think that Glory is infinite and is 100% God.
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye (me or you) also appear with him in glory.

The hope during the entire book of Acts, including all the books written during Acts, was TOTALLY DIFFERENT that the hope after Acts - the NJ in the created heavens as the prize or on the created earth. In Paul's post-Acts epistles, there is no Israel and no gifts - 100% Gentiles. The only purpose of the gifts in Acts was to provide sign and wonders to Israel, who required them, so they would hopefully, as a nation, accept Christ as the promised Messiah. If they had done that, the trib would have started immediately and then Christ would have returned - Acts 3:19-20 and others. The 2000 year parenthetical period we now live in would have never happened.

Compare these verses from Paul's post-Acts epistles with the hope that you already know existed in Acts.
First of all, the place that Christ ascended. Note that the phrase heavenly places means the same as far above all heaven:
Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens (created heavens) that he might fill all things.
Ephesians 1:20-21 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

And here is our position - the same place where Christ ascended to:
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
All this is part of THE MYSTERY, which is found ONLY in Paul's last 7 books.

There are many other verses I could quote. Nothing in these verses was discussed during Acts. The hope during Acts was in the created heavens. The hope after Acts is in the un-created heavenly places, far above the created heavens. Totally different deal.

Paul's prayer of Ephesians 1:16-23 is very important.
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Note in vss 17 and 18, Paul prays that God will give you the Spirit and wisdom of revelation...the eyes of your understanding being enlightened...that you may know what is the hope of your calling.
Ephesians was written awhile after any of Paul's Acts books. The people he is talking to were already saved (Eph 1:1) and they surely knew the hope of the calling during the Acts period. Why would Paul, then, pray that God enlighten them about something they already knew. Also, it seems in vs 19 that faith (to us-ward who believe) is required to get this brand-new calling. Paul prayed for us to see this new hope because he knew that people would have a very hard time seeing it. Some proof of this is seen in 2 Timothy 1:15, where he says that all in Asia have turned away from him.

So, are you going to persist in believing the beggarly elements of Acts or can you see, believe, and act on the far, far better hope found ONLY (not even a hint in the rest of the Bible) in Paul's post-Acts epistles.

I hope you can see the reasons I believe that you, BW, Danoh, all other A2D and A9D, and most everyone else in Christendom, are so deluded and so totally wrong about so many dispensational things.

Whether or not the calling in Paul's 1st 7 books is different than the calling in Paul's last 7 books is really the only thing that's important at this time. If I'm right about this, A2D, A9D, and any other group that finds their hope in the books written during Acts or doctrine preached during Acts are proven to be WRONG. If I'm right, you're totally missing the boat. If you can see this new calling, even a little bit, I would beseech you to temporarily forget everything you know about Acts and Paul's Acts books and study Ephesians 1-3, over and over, until you really understand what it says. At this point, you have no idea.

Most all of us are saved. The only question now is WHERE are we saved to? This seems to be determined by what we believe. You have to take your blinders off. Only when you see the NEW truth, from Paul's latest revelation, in Eph, Col, etc, can you start learning things that are important.

Latin derivations of the English word "Rapture"

Rapere - to carry off or catch up

Raptura - seizure, kidnapping

Raptus - a carrying off

Rapio - to catch up or take away

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In my last post, #111, I provided 3 very obvious verses from Ephesians that proved that the calling in Ephesians is totally different than the calling in Acts. This makes 3 or 4 times I've posted those same verses but have never once received a comment or rebuttal about them. I also am 100% sure that, if I am right about them, and I surely am, it would destroy both the A2D and A9D doctrines. It's their Achilles heel.

Both A2D and A9D tend to rob cherry-picked verses from Paul's post-Acts epistles and try to blend them in with the Acts epistles, although a close examination shows that this can't be done. These thefts usually involve things like THE Mystery and the Church which is the Body of Christ. I won't discuss these things now, but I will after we're finished the Calling.

I have never seen Ephesians 4:10, Ephesians 1:20-21, and Ephesians 2:6 quoted by A2D or A9D as a grouping (plus, there are probably 10 other verses I could add to these). Therefore, I challenge any A2D or A9D or anyone else to refute my claims with scripture.

What about you, Biblewriter? I know this is not typical of your normal method of fault-finding and and attempting to overwhelm your opponent with 16 pages of who-cares OT scripture to prove a very minor point, but I do wish you would give this a shot.

ac28 said:

These thefts usually involve things like THE Mystery and the Church which is the Body of Christ. I won't discuss these things now, but I will after we're finished the Calling.

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It was not a "mystery" to Hosea.

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

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BABerean2 said:

It was not a "mystery" to Hosea.

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

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I can't see any correlation between the church in Eph and the scripture you posted.

The church in Ephesians, etc., which is literally Christ's Body, was not known in the writings of the OT prophets, nor was it known during Acts. It was hid in God until revealed to Paul after Acts 28:28.

The body in 1 Corinthians 12, for example, is related to gifts, vs 1. Nowhere in 1 Cor 12 do the words "church" and "body" occur in the same verse.

Same with THE Mystery in Paul's last 7 books. It has been 100% hidden in God and was never revealed, in any form, until it was revealed to Paul after Acts 28:28 - Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:26. This is totally different than the mystery in Romans 25-26, which it says was hidden in the scriptures of the prophets - vs 26.

ac28 said:

I can't see any correlation between the church in Eph and the scripture you posted.

The church in Ephesians, etc., which is literally Christ's Body, was not known in the writings of the OT prophets, nor was it known during Acts. It was hid in God until revealed to Paul after Acts 28:28.

The body in 1 Corinthians 12, for example, is related to gifts, vs 1. Nowhere in 1 Cor 12 do the words "church" and "body" occur in the same verse.

Same with THE Mystery in Paul's last 7 books. It has been 100% hidden in God and was never revealed, in any form, until it was revealed to Paul after Acts 28:28 - Ephesians 3:9, Colossians 1:26. This is totally different than the mystery in Romans 25-26, which it says was hidden in the scriptures of the prophets - vs 26.

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The problem for you is that what you are claiming conflicts with what Paul plainly said in Romans 9:24-28.

If a system only works by ignoring the verses that disprove that system, then it cannot be correct.

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BABerean2 said:

The problem for you is that what you are claiming conflicts with what Paul plainly said in Romans 9:24-28.

If a system only works by ignoring the verses that disprove that system, then it cannot be correct.

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Generally speaking, there are 4 types of truth in the Bible: Dispensational, Doctrinal, Prophetic, and Practical. Dispensational truth for individuals depends on who they are and when they are (or, were) alive. In an extreme fashion, anyone that doesn't practice animal sacrifice or doesn't think it's for them, is a dispensationalist.

What you have never understood is that, dispensationally, I couldn't care less about any of Paul's Acts books, since I know absolutely that nothing in them, dispensationally, applies to me in any shape, form, or fashion. I know that, dispensationally, the truth for today is found only in Paul's last 7 books. You can never disprove any thing I say, dispensationally, by quoting Romans, 1 Cor, the Gospels etc., or any thing from the OT. In other words, by quoting from nothing but Paul's last 7 books. In this frame of reference, what Paul says in Romans, dispensationally, is meaningless.

You've wasted a lot of your time worrying about Acts 2 dispensationalism, the weakest and milkiest form of dispensationalism, although there are a lot more sheep involved with it. Acts 9D is similar but isn't much better. I would agree that both are totally wrong in their basic concepts. Acts 28D is a totally different ballgame than the other 2. Instead of manipulating and distorting scripture to prove their weak doctrine, A28D sees something that no other group in the world sees, that Paul's last 7 books and, in particular, the 4 prison epistles, Eph, Phil, Col, and 2Tim, contain a brand new calling that is found nowhere else in scripture. This is, for those that see it, a hope of being resurrected or translated into the infinite UNCREATED heaven, the only place that existed before the creation - God's Secret Place, where I am already raised up and seated (Ephesians 2:6), although, as an earthling, I don't yet have the senses to sense it.

The 100,000, or so, people in this world that "see" this calling (only about 1 in every 20,000 Christians), all have a common thought, once they see it, "This is so obvious and easy to see. It's like the nose on your face. Why can't everyone see it?" Some have proposed that people wouldn't be given the eyes to see it or ears to hear unless they first break out of the doctrinal prison they're in = Acts. Sounds logical to me.

It seems to me that Satan does want anyone to go to the place that he aspired to go - God's Holy of Holies, Far Above All Heavens, Heavenly Places, God's Secret Place. For that reason, he wants to keep everyone in Acts. Satan is surely the culprit behind Margaret Macdonald's trance. A lot of lies resulting from that trance have developed into doctrine designed mainly to keep people in Acts.

If Acts 28 dispensationalists are right in believing that their truth for today is the unique calling found only in Paul's last 7 books, it means that every other group on the planet, whether dispensationalists or non-dispensationalists, are totally wrong in many of their core beliefs.

ac28 said:

Generally speaking, there are 4 types of truth in the Bible: Dispensational, Doctrinal, Prophetic, and Practical. Dispensational truth for individuals depends on who they are and when they are (or, were) alive. In an extreme fashion, anyone that doesn't practice animal sacrifice or doesn't think it's for them, is a dispensationalist.

What you have never understood is that, dispensationally, I couldn't care less about any of Paul's Acts books, since I know absolutely that nothing in them, dispensationally, applies to me in any shape, form, or fashion. I know that, dispensationally, the truth for today is found only in Paul's last 7 books. You can never disprove any thing I say, dispensationally, by quoting Romans, 1 Cor, the Gospels etc., or any thing from the OT. In other words, by quoting from nothing but Paul's last 7 books. In this frame of reference, what Paul says in Romans, dispensationally, is meaningless.

You've wasted a lot of your time worrying about Acts 2 dispensationalism, the weakest and milkiest form of dispensationalism, although there are a lot more sheep involved with it. Acts 9D is similar but isn't much better. I would agree that both are totally wrong in their basic concepts. Acts 28D is a totally different ballgame than the other 2. Instead of manipulating and distorting scripture to prove their weak doctrine, A28D sees something that no other group in the world sees, that Paul's last 7 books and, in particular, the 4 prison epistles, Eph, Phil, Col, and 2Tim, contain a brand new calling that is found nowhere else in scripture. This is, for those that see it, a hope of being resurrected or translated into the infinite UNCREATED heaven, the only place that existed before the creation - God's Secret Place, where I am already raised up and seated (Ephesians 2:6), although, as an earthling, I don't yet have the senses to sense it.

The 100,000, or so, people in this world that "see" this calling (only about 1 in every 20,000 Christians), all have a common thought, once they see it, "This is so obvious and easy to see. It's like the nose on your face. Why can't everyone see it?" Some have proposed that people wouldn't be given the eyes to see it or ears to hear unless they first break out of the doctrinal prison they're in = Acts. Sounds logical to me.

It seems to me that Satan does want anyone to go to the place that he aspired to go - God's Holy of Holies, Far Above All Heavens, Heavenly Places, God's Secret Place. For that reason, he wants to keep everyone in Acts. Satan is surely the culprit behind Margaret Macdonald's trance. A lot of lies resulting from that trance have developed into doctrine designed mainly to keep people in Acts.

If Acts 28 dispensationalists are right in believing that their truth for today is the unique calling found only in Paul's last 7 books, it means that every other group on the planet, whether dispensationalists or non-dispensationalists, are totally wrong in many of their core beliefs.

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Ignoring scripture that destroys one's doctrine is most certainly an effective way to get a doctrine to work...

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BABerean2 said:

Ignoring scripture that destroys one's doctrine is most certainly an effective way to get a doctrine to work...

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Amen. But sadly, that's exactly what you are doing. You are continually using your interpretation of what you think some scriptures mean as an excuse to deny what numerous other scriptures explicitly say.

Biblewriter said:

Amen. But sadly, that's exactly what you are doing. You are continually using your interpretation of what you think some scriptures mean as an excuse to deny what numerous other scriptures explicitly say.

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Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:



Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.



Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

(2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.)

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


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Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,



Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
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