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Grafted In

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Also, I have never considered those during His 3 days in the earth who Scripture says Jesus led captivity captive having been taken to heaven.

May i ask if you believe those whose graves opened at Jesus's death on the cross, those who came out of their graves after His resurection....were they taken to heaven with the first group you mentioned?
 
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eleos1954

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Satan Bound
Revelation 20
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

It includes the martyrs AND those who had not worshiped the beast of its image ...
 
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keras

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It includes the martyrs AND those who had not worshiped the beast of its image ...
You have added AND.
I checked with several versions; the word AND is not in scripture there. You have added it, to your discredit.

Quite plainly, ....They [who will] come to life again and reign with Christ for the next thousand years, are only the GT martyrs.
Obviously - all the rest of the dead; are yet to be Judged, which will happen after the Millennium. Proof is - Revelation 20:5 & 11-15

This issue is a very serious matter, as the wrong belief of all the Christian dead, being resurrected when Jesus Returns, leads to complacency and supports the false 'rapture to heaven' belief.
 
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RandyPNW

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Eleos1954, you wrote that

Where is it written that angels will harvest at the 'Rapture'?
Matthew 13.39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
24.31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


It really depends on what you mean by "the Rapture?" I do not believe a *Pretrib Rapture* is a reality. It isn't in the Bible. But the "Rapture," as defined by angels seizing living saints at the Harvest, is there.

Rev 14.15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
 
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eleos1954

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  • Revelation 20:5
    "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended"
  • John 5:28, 29
    "All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation"
The Second Resurrection is also known as the resurrection of condemnation, and it's when those who rejected Jesus as their Savior will be resurrected. The unsaved will be punished by annihilation and will not experience eternal life

Hell is the grave .... we are mortal we do not have a immortal "spirit" ... we do not receive immortality until Jesus returns.
 
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Grafted In

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Those you believe are in heaven now, will they not become part of the Bride of Christ.
If not, what is their position?
Perhaps bridesmaids.
We who will be taken in the next harvest are the very Bride, are they not?
Scripture tells us that we will rule over angels.
Where are the 2 groups in position of order of those you say Jesus took with Him and the next time He harvests men?
 
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eleos1954

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the harvest of the saved will take place at the second coming of Jesus Christ:

The Bible says that believers will judge angels, but it doesn't say that they will rule over them:

  • 1 Corinthians 6:3
    In his letter to the church in Corinth, the apostle Paul says, "Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life". This passage suggests that believers will be given a higher position than angels because they are created in God's image and redeemed by Christ.
 
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keras

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the harvest of the saved will take place at the second coming of Jesus Christ:
You are wrong and I proved you wrong in #104.
However, if people like to believe theories, unsupported by scripture. so be it.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I pretty much agree with this.
 
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Jan001

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I think that a remnant of Israel's Jews has been saved during the past 2000 years, and more will continue coming into Christ's church. The remaining remnant will enter his church shortly before Jesus' second coming.

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time, there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

I do not think Italy as a nation is powerful today. The deep-state/one-worlders are the threat today.
God's kingdom is a spiritual kingdom. When Jesus returns at his second coming at the end of time, his coming will defeat death forever. No human being will ever physically be born or physically die ever again. When Jesus returns at the end of time, after gathering his kingdom to himself, he will then turn his kingdom over to his Father. None of the righteous will need to be ruled over ever again. We will all be one in God.

1 Corinthians 15:21-28
For since death came into the world through a man, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a man.
22 Just as in Adam all die, so all will be brought to life in Christ, 23 but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward, at his coming, those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every sovereignty and authority and power. 25 For he is destined to reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he has put all things under his feet. But when it says “all things are put under,” it is obvious that this excludes the one who subjected everything to him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who made all things subject to him, so that God may be all in all.

Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit, as well as one hope to which you have been called by your vocation, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


My opinion, of course.
 
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Jan001

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Gehenna/hell was one part of Hades. Hades was the abode of ALL the spirits of the people who had physically died.

Hell/Gehenna is the abode of all the unrighteous spirits, both demons and humans who rejected God by their evil works. Luke 16:24

The prison was another part of Hades, which was the abode of the righteous who had not yet been made perfect. 1 Peter 3:19, Luke 12:59

Abraham's bosom was another part of Hades, and this was the abode of the spirits of the righteous who had already been made perfect. Hebrews 12:23

These righteous spirits who were residing in Abraham's bosom are the saints who went to heaven after Jesus' resurrection. These are the spirits who are ruling and reigning in heaven with Jesus and they will reign with him there until his second coming at the end of time. Revelation 20:6
As soon as we physically die, we are judged.

Hebrews 9:27 And just as human beings are destined to die but once, and after that to face judgment,


Our spirits then go to our own place that was prepared for us.

John 14:2, Acts 1:25, Luke 16:24

Our spirits never die and they never sleep.

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that weighs us down and the sins that so easily distract us and with perseverance run the race that lies ahead of us,

Who is in this spiritual cloud of witnesses to our faith? Some of these saints are listed in Hebrews 11: the spirits of Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham.
 
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Jan001

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The tombs opened when Jesus died on the cross. The bodies in these tombs were raised, but they were not incorruptible. The spirits of these bodies belonged to the righteous souls/spirits residing in Abraham's bosom in Hades. Jesus released these souls/spirits from Hades and they animated their human bodies so that they could appear to many. These spirits/souls then returned their corruptible bodies to their tombs. After this, Jesus accompanied these spirits/souls to heaven where they are reigning with him there. Revelation 20:4-7

Matthew 27:51-53 And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and rocks were split apart. 52 The tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.[a]
 
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Longing to kneel

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While I respect your perspective, I believe Scripture presents a different view regarding the rapture and the glorification of believers.

First, the concept of a "rapture to heaven" is rooted in passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, which states:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."
This describes an event where believers are "caught up" (raptured) to meet the Lord. This does not negate God's ability to protect His people but emphasizes His direct intervention in gathering His church to Himself.

Second, regarding the glorification of our bodies, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 states:
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
This passage ties the transformation of believers to the return of Christ and the "last trumpet," signifying that this glorification occurs before the Millennium, not after it.

Finally, while Revelation 20:11-15 speaks of final judgment, it is distinct from the promises made to believers regarding eternal life and transformation at Christ’s second coming. The two events—the glorification of believers and the final judgment—are not the same and occur at different times according to Scripture.

I encourage continued study of these passages with prayerful consideration of their context and cross-references to gain clarity on these significant events.
 
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Jan001

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Why do you think there will be a millennium after Jesus returns at his second coming?
It seems to me that when the dead are raised, their bodies become immortal/incorruptible, and it is the end of time, aka Judgment Day.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.
The final judgment, aka the white throne judgment and the sheep and goats judgment, occurs immediately after Jesus' second coming.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I like your thoughts... but do you have some basis for this:
"These spirits/souls then returned their corruptible bodies to their tombs..."
It makes sense... but do you have some evidence?
 
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eleos1954

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We don't have a "spirit" that goes somewhere .... we are mortal (subject to death - possibility of 2 deaths) and the bible is very clear about this. No where in the bible does it say after we die (earthly death) we have a conscious of some kind.

Jesus died to provide the way TO HAVE eternal life .... eternal life was forfeited when Adam & Eve sinned ... it is restored when Jesus returns.

If we are immortal in any way for what reason did Jesus lay down His life?

We are completely 100 percent mortal until Jesus returns

1 Corinthians 15:53-55

King James Version

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal (subject to death) must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal (subject to death) shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Ecclesiastes 9:10 New International Version (NIV)​

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Mortal and in the grave ... NOT immortal and in heaven (this don't happen until Jesus returns)

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Death in the bible is described as a dormant sleep .... why? Because Jesus has the power of resurrection.

Nothing immortal about us until Jesus returns and we are reserrected.
 
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Jan001

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I like your thoughts... but do you have some basis for this:
"These spirits/souls then returned their corruptible bodies to their tombs..."
It makes sense... but do you have some evidence?
Thank you. I learn from others on these forums as well.

The spirits of the saints, who were residing in Abraham's bosom until Jesus died on the cross, are reigning in heaven with Jesus right now, and they will be reigning there with Jesus until he returns in the flesh at his second coming at the end of time.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.....Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

"Souls" means "spirits." None of these people have glorified physical bodies.


The first resurrection refers to the spirits/souls of the righteous people who had died before Jesus' death and resurrection. These spirits ascended into heaven after Jesus' resurrection, but they will not receive their glorified physical bodies until the end of time at Jesus' second coming. They have no fear of the second death because the second death is condemnation and hellfire for the wicked. Revelation 20:14

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [a]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


The spirits of the apostles (i.e. James, Peter, Paul) and the disciples (i.e. Stephen) and all the other saints who were murdered by the unbelieving Jews are also reigning with Jesus in heaven right now.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.
 
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keras

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First, the concept of a "rapture to heaven" is rooted in passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17,
Heaven is only mentioned in 1 Thess 4, as the place Jesus departs from. NEVER as the place the Chruch goes to.
Jesus is Returning and is on His way to Jerusalem, specifically - the Mt of lives. Zechariah 14:4
Proved by Matthew 24:30-31, His angels will transport those who remain; to where He will be, - Jerusalem.
Second, regarding the glorification of our bodies, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 states:
1 Cor 15:50-56, is a Prophecy about what will happen at the Great White throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
Proved by Revelation 21:4, when Death will be no more.
You fail to provide any scriptural; support for this belief. Because there isn't any!
ONLY the GT martyrs will be brought back to life, that is: mortal life, when Jesus Returns, Rev 20:4-5
I encourage continued study of these passages with prayerful consideration of their context and cross-references to gain clarity on these significant events.
Clear your mind of false teachings first.
 
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Jan001

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Scripture states that after Jesus died, He preached to the spirits of the people in Hades (Abraham's bosom). These spirits were not mortal. They did not die when their physical bodies died.

Jesus would not have preached to people who could not hear him and understand him.

1 Peter 4:6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

I can assure you that Jesus did not preach to the spirits in hell. It would not benefit them in any way. Luke 16:24

Jesus also preached to the spirits in the prison part of Hades during his three days in the grave. These souls/spirits repented of their sins when the flood waters were drowning them while Noah was safely in the ark. They will have to remain there until they have paid the "you will reap what you sow" penalty for their sins. Matthew 5:25-26, Galatians 6:7

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Jesus laid down his life, because if he had not, no human could ever have entered into heaven to live with God. Adam's sin separated us from God. Only Jesus' death on the cross could make reparation for Adams sin, and thereby make it possible for mankind to be reconciled with God.
 
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