The Quiet Thread

Lucretius

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(Continued from previous post)

Occam’s Razor

Why make the assumption that white holes exist, when they cannot? Why assume that the Earth resides in the center of the universe, when there is no center? The Big Bang is a perfectly valid theory that does not rely on assumptions that violate known laws of physics, and in fact, that are well in line with the evidence collected. Gravitational time dilation, though an observed occurrence, does nothing to help the Creationist case. The Creationist model violates the principle of Occam’s Razor by positing unnecessary pluralities when the Big Bang Theory does an excellent job explaining the evolution of the universe from a very early period several billion years ago. We have taken a clear look at the notion of time dilation, and how it is unusable to demonstrate that the Earth is 6,000 years old, or that appearance of age is a possibility.

Among observed qualities of the universe that Creationist cosmology fails to account for, but that Inflation does an excellent job of account for are the fluctuations in the Cosmic Background Radiation and the large-scale structure of the universe. Humphrey’s reliance on divine intervention in these cases help to show that his idea is nothing more than an attempt to reconcile the Bible with science.

References

1.http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ/tdil.html, Length Contraction

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation, Time Dilation

3. Humphreys, Russell ‘Seven Years of Starlight and Time’ ICR

4. Malone, Bruce ’Big Problems with the Big Bang’ Creation Science Evangelism

5. Jacob, Robin http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae510.cfm, Physlink

6. http://www.crystalinks.com/wormholes.html, White Holes

7. http://home.cwru.edu/~sjr16/stars_blackhole.html, Black Holes

8. Guth, Alan H. 1997, The Inflationary Universe, pp. 289-293

9. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_force, Tidal Forces
 
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jlerollin

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The design filter
ID basic proposition of much use hope i can lodge it here for ref.

node 1 Law
Q.is it produced by a natural law given a set of circumstances. i.e. wave pattern
if yes we cant say it is definitely designed ( though it might be as it is possible to arrange artificats to look as though they fit natural law or chance occurence but that is not useful to us here. we want to say when we can prove that design is the only option for its creation not one of many (i wont complicate things by invoking god as creator of the laws of physics though i do think this is an area that shows desing just as much as any of the phenomena bound by the laws of science - the laws of science properties of matter etc are themselves rather highly specified for life but lets not go there.)

if no we proceed to node 2

node 2 chance

is the phenomena the result of chance if it has a intermediate probability of occuring say simultaneous snakes eyes, then we can say it can be explained by chance.
if no say 60 snakes eyes in a row we are now in the very low probability realm and for some this is enough but there is something else needed to infer design. as any 60 roll of the dice is a highly unlikely event ( you try getting exactly the same sequence again)


node 3 design

specificity the low probability event also has to follow a set pattern that is not itself random the product of chance.

i.e. the roll of 60 dice in a row all alligning to a preset pattern snakes eyes or pi ro anything else would be the killer in assigning design. say i was playing dice with you and i always rolled what i predicted you would (because this is the explicit version of the natural design inference process) infer that i have loaded the dice

an element of design has been inserted into the process.

I hope now you can see that not only do we all infer design all the time but that you dont have to see someone desinging something to tell that it is designed and that is scientific. it is used in law in forensics, in archeology in every sort of endeaveour
 
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TeddyKGB

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jlerollin's design filter seems only to be useful when the probability of some event occurring is known in advance. At least, that's what I gather from the dice-rolling example.

We do not know the a priori probability of life arising in the universe, in a solar system, or on a planet, and no amount of jargonny rhetoric will change that.
 
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J

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While the creationists are busy arguing over whether Tiktaalik is a fish or a terrestrial animal (would that make it a beast or a creeping thing) and failing to agree with one another, precious few have actually addressed how the fossil itself was found. That will be the focus of this thread.

Using the previously found tetrapods as a reference, a range of radiometrically determined ages was found in which the tetrapods appear. This period is referred to as the devonian, since it has the same radiomatric age as the rocks of this age first determined in Devon, UK. Utilizing our knowledge of plate tectonics we can reconstruct a map of the world as it would have appeared that length of time ago, and we find that there was a continent, which has been named the "Euramerican landmass" since it shares rock from what we now know as Europe and America. So using both the radiometric dates and the knowledge of plate tectonics, it is possible to identify regions where we would find rocks of certain ages. Analysing the rocks can give an indication of how they were formed, for example it is pretty clear when a particular rock formed in a river basin or such. Bringing all this information together, the paleontologists along with the geologists identified a previously unexplored area which had the right radiometric ages and physical properties to slop it in the devonian, inbetween the radiometric ages determined by previous tetrapod finds. Since it is inbetween previous finds, we would expect to find intermediate organisms. This is where Tiktaalik was found; In the Nunavut territory, southern Ellesmere Island, near the eastern arm of Bird Fiord, N77° 09.808' W86° 16.151'. Bear in mind the majorits of the other fossils were found in greenland and finland, so it is not immediately obvious to search northern canada unless one expects the two to have been united.

So how is it, that not using any YEC theory whatsoever, and relying on radiometric dating, which according to YECs does not work, and the combination of this with conventional plate tectonics (which according to YECs is wrong) and picking a time period between two groups of tetrapods (which according to YECs should not matter because they were all created together), that scientists could find a rock formation on a different (current) continent to the one on which the other fossils were originally found, with a particular set of radiological properties, and find exactly the sort of fossil they were looking for, one that had never been found before?

Furthermore, not only is the radiomatric age of Tiktaalik intermediate to the other tetrapod transitionals, but the features are too. Claims that Tiktaalik were a large tadpole or a crocodile were thoroughly dismantled here.

There are a large number of morphological features intermediate between the earlier and later tetrapods, from the numbers of bones in the skull, the structure of the jaw, positions and articulation of the bones in the limbs, features of the gills and opercular system, imbricate ribs and so on. This isn't an argument about whether this is a fossil transitional or not, the fact is that it is intermediate between earlier and later tetrapods (in that it does have features partially like one and partially like the other). The question is why can the scientists predict, without ever having seen the said fossil before, where a fossil with certain characteristics should be.
 
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J

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Chalk is a particular form of limestone that forms in shallow water as a result of the breakdown of microscopic green algae called cocolithophores. The chalk consists primarily of the microscopic calcium plates called cocoliths. Cocolithophores can only live in a fairly narrow layer near the surface of the water. Famous Chalk deposits, such as the White Cliffs of Dover are several hundred feet thick. Cocoliths are very small, only a few micrometres in size, and this means that they experience a very low terminal velocity in water. (Terminal velocity is a property of the mass and surface area of an object. To give an example, drop a metal sphere and a ball of cotton wool at the same time. The former will hit the floor before the latter due to the higher terminal velocity.) The terminal velocity in fact is so low, that if you take a cocolith in the typical deep water in which limestones form, a cocolith should take about a hundred years to reach the bottom.

Cocoliths belinging to cocolithophores like Emiliania huxleyi have a diameter of something like about 1-2 micrometres . (a human hair is about 200 micrometres) so 40 times thinner than a human hair. and a thickness somewhere in the order of 0.1micrometres

The upper layer of chalk formations in the UK average about 480m thick, so if you were to take a column of these cocoliths and stack them on top of one another, you are looking at several billion cocoliths. Now consider this over the area of the formations. Here is a picture of the white cliffs of Dover with a building on top (I think it is a church) just to give you an idea of scale

photo17.jpg


Now bear in mind that these cliffs consist of very high purity chalk, they aren't mixed with loads of sand, and that in the south of the UK there are three overlying layers of chalk, with different rock types inbetween. There is also evidence of bioturbidity in the limestone, and occasional fossils of molluscs and bivalves.

so far we have a number of issues
  • Thick limestone and chalk deposits such as those in the south of England consist of multiple layers of limestone, each of which may be several hundred metres thick
  • Limestone deposits of this kind are made chiefly from cololiths, the calcium plates of cocolithophores which are onls fractions of a micrometre thick, and a micrometre or so in diameter
  • cocolithophores only live in the upper layers of the sea
  • Cololiths take something like a hundred years to settle into deep water deposits.
  • Many of the limestone deposits, such as those in the UK show high purity (they are not mixed with sand and unrelated detritus)
  • Many show evidence of bioturbidity, that is, animals moving around on the base of the sea.

As you can see, the sheer size and purity of these deposits is simply not conducive so a single year long flood. First of all there are multiple layers, i.e. limestone-sandstone-limestone, with two relatively pure limestone layers. Since the cocoliths take so long to settle, it is not possible within a year to form such structures, since you would see a mixture of the limestone with other deposits such as sand. Furthermore, cocoliths need lots of light, they only live in the sunlit parts of the ocean, and you simply cannot pack in enough cocolithophores in the space of a year to make such deposits. Furthermore, the amount of calcium sequestered from the water required to make formations such as the white cliffs would not be possible in the space of a year.


Cocoliths settle out of the water very slowly, and there can only be a certain density of cocolithophores in the upper surface . even if (and this is trivially unlikely) all the cocolithophores were at the surface of the sea at t=0, you would still have to wait a hundred years for a limestone deposit to form on the surface of the sea. If you have three layers with other stuff inbetween, then you are looking at at least three hundred years for the three layers to form (that also ignores formation time for the intermediate layers). but of course a time length that short is impossible, since you aren't going to start off with hundreds of metres thick of cocoliths at the surface of the sea, they do have to be produced.

The most severe algal blooms result in densities of about a million or so algae per millilitre. I'll say 10 million. For an average algal size of about 5micrometres, this equates to 5x10^-9 cubic metres of algae per mililitre (1x10^-6 m^3) of water. so the algae make up something like 5x10^-3 of the volume (0.5%). (in reality they cannot keep this up for very long, since it depletes the water of all nutrients and starts spreading toxins very rapidly) you could pancake all the algae in this volume into a thickness of 5x10^-5m. take a 500 metre thickness of limestone, that means you need something like 10 million of these layers (I'm being really good here and assuming that all of the algae by volume makes up the limestone, when only a fraction of it does so), and that means you need a column of water with an algal bloom density of Cocolithophores, some 100 km thick. to support all of the algae in one go. of course that isn't going to happen, so we'll distribute it over a year, 365 days at a maximal production rate. We'll say that every single day, the cocolithphores can regenerate their entire mass (it will be lower than this in reality). that would mean that each day we need 270m of water producing a maximal amount of cocolithophores. A significant amount of sunlight can only penetrate 100m of clear sea water, and cocoliths have a very high reflectivity, so that would reduce the amount of sunlight penetrating the sea even further, especially if they are at algal bloom density. These figures show that expecting even a single layer of the chalk deposits to form in the flood are simply not realistic at all.
 
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J

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Some creationists have complained that Tiktaalik is probably just a big tadpole or a mutant crocodile, that we don't know whether they had lungs or gills and a number of other points.. The following post outlines why these claims are nonsense.

Tiktaalik had lungs and gills

There are a number of features that show that Tiktaalik had lungs and gills. Tiktaalik has "elongate and robust ceratobranchials extend[ing] into the gill chamber and bear[ing] a deep a deep, longitudinal sulcus along their ventral surfaces that is indicative of well developed gills" Additionally there is an inward turned blade on the shoulder of Tiktaalik that corresponds to the same blade in fishes that forms the back wall of the gill chamber.

A number of features such as expanded gular plates, and emphasis on buccal pumping, expansion of the width of the skull, loss of the operculum and reduction to the oppercular apparatus are strongly indicative of air breathing and lungs.

Tiktaalik is not just a big tadpole

Tiktaalik has a skull, tadpoles don't even have a skull. at the most they have a hard cartilaginous horny beak, but do not develop a skull until late on. The morphology of tadpoles during their metamorphosis to frogs makes it abundantly clear that the two are not the same, and that the tiktaalik limb is not the same.

the following pdf shows a number of stained tadpoles during development

http://app.pan.pl/acta48/app48-595.pdf

and here is a graphic showing the forelimb of tiktaalik

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6182/1617/1600/FinIllus.jpg

as you can see, at no stage does the tadpole ever develop such a structure, the organisation of the bones is very different to the tadpole, and typically tetrapod like. frog limbs more closely resemble bats and humans than they do Tiktaalik.

Tiktaalik had a large number of imbricate ribs, whereas frogs do not have ribs. The number of bones in the skull of Tiktaalik is intermediate between other groups of tetrapods, and is not the same as the number of bones seen in an adult frog, or the frog at any stage of development.

Tiktaalik was not a frog, nor a tadpole.

Tiktaalik is not a mutant crocodile

Similar to the tadpole above, Tiktaalik had a large number of features which do not exist in crocodiles at any stage of their development, such as all the gill structures, the numbers of bones in the skull, the structure of the forelimbs. The only comparisons are the position of the external nares, dorsal eyes and the mouth extending posterior to the eyes (features not seen in tadpoles btw)

Tiktaalik did not simply die while growing

Bearing in mind that many of the features seen in tiktaalik are intermediate between other tetrapod groups, of which there are huge numbers of fossil finds of varying levels of completion, and many of these features are not seen in any extant terrestrial organisms during development, the above claim is already somewhat of a dud. However just to drive the point home, there have been some 27 fossils of tiktaalik found (of varying levels of completion) varying in size by a factor of two, and many showing these features such as the forelimbs and so on regardless of size, indicating that these specimins (a) all belong to one species and (2) have not all died at exactly the same stage in their growth. indeed most are likely to be adults.

In addition to the earlier post on the discovery of tiktaalik, it is clear that the creationist reponses claiming that tiktaalik is not an intermediate fossil, and their attempts at dismissal are extremely weak and just clutching at straws.
 
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[1] Background: The Properties of Electromagnetic Radiation.

Light is perhaps the form of EM Radiation we are most familiar with, being able to detect it directly, but we are also familiar with other radiation, from Gamma Rays through to the longest of radio waves. These are all forms of electromagnetic radiation, in that they are propagating oscillations of the electromagnetic field. Light was initially thought to have only wave like properties (young et al) or particulate properties (Newton thought this, despite Newton's rings), but with the advent of quatum mechanics, it was found to have both. We call a single excitation of the electromagnetic field a photon, though we cannot really think of this as a particle, because it does have both wave and particle properties at the same time, in that it behaves like a wave, but interacts in a quantum (stepwise) manner.

Light in a vacuum travels at a constant speed, regardless of the frame of reference of the observer. So for example, if I am flying towards you in a rocket at 0.9c and you shine a torch at me, you will see the photons flying away from you at c, and I will see them flying towards me at c. This is unlike normal classical thinking, where if I am driving a car towards you at 60mph and you throw a baseball at me at 30mph, you see the ball moving away from you at 30mph, and I see it approaching me at 90mph.

This constant speed is a function of elementary properties of space, the permittivity and permeability of free space, which are invariant under acceleration and different velocities.

The Energy of a photon E is related to the frequency (and thus the wavelength) by E=hf, where h is Planck's constant (and so E=hc/l, where h is Planck's constant, c is the speed of light in vacuum and l is the wavelength).

[2] Radiation and Atoms

Atoms are fundamentally quantum mechanical structures. Unlike a ball orbitting the moon (I pick the moon because it has no atmosphere), which can orbit at any altitude, and thus any energy (within the limits of bouncing off things) Electrons are limited to particular energy levels as a result of them being Fermions (having half integer spin, a quantum mechanical property). This means that there may only be a certain number of electrons in the particular "energy bands" around the atom. the number of electrons orbitting the nucleus is the same as the number of protons in the nucleus for an uncharged atom, and this is why the atoms have the chemical properties that they do - it is linked to the number of available energy slots in the outermost band with electrons in it, but this is about light, not chemistry, and thus that is a digression. Electrons may be excited from a lower level to a higher level, and due to these levels being discrete in nature, this means that a particular quantity of energy is absorbed. If we remember that E=hc/l, then this corresponds to absorbing a photon at a particular wavelength. When we look at the light emitted or absorbed by a gas, we can see these lines, and they are known as the atomic spectra. here is a picture of the spectrum from hydrogen, showing part of the Balmer series

h2spec.JPG


and here is an image of the energy levels in hydrogen

kauf5_22.JPG


For other atoms, this gets very complex, as there are a much wider variety of possible shifts in energy, and a number of other effects such as lamb shift.

Looking at these lines and spectra in general is known as spectrometry, and knowing the lines produced by various atoms and molecules means that one can detect them very clearly, due to their characteristic energies, and hence wavelengths.

Here is a picture of the visible spectrum of the sun. the black lines are the absorption lines, where the atoms in the sun absorb the black body spectrum of the sun

400px-High_Resolution_Solar_Spectrum.jpg


[3] Black Body Spectra

The Black Body spectrum, first mentioned in [2] is a function only of the temperature of an object, and only objects in thermal equilibrium between the matter and energy emit them. It is the result of repeated absorptions and collisions of light from within the object before it is radiated into space. The black body spectrum has a very distinctive form - a broad spectrum object whose peak and slope corresponds to a specific temperature.

planck.gif


This shows the black body spectrum for a number of different temperatures. So looking at the sun (and taking into account the perturbations from the absorption lines, which are not particularly strong), we can deduce the surface temperature of the sun just by looking at the black body spectrum, ant it turns out that the sun has a surface temperature of about 6000K

The Sun has a black body spectrum, because it is in thermal equilibrium with space: it produces heat at the same rate as it loses it.

[4] The Cosmic Microwave Background

The cosmic microwave background is a microwave spectrum from all around us. It is approximately the same in all directions, though there are slight perturbations that are of great interest to science, due to the early distribution of matter. The CMB is a black body spectrum. Since the CMB is a black body spectrum, it indicates that at some point in the past, all matter and radiation were in equilibrium (same temperature). This is clearly not the case now, for example, the sun is not the same temperature as the earth, and neither are the same temperature as the CMB. Now the CMB is very cold, and shows a black body temperature of just a few degrees above absolute zero. Now if we extrapolate the expansion of the universe backwards, we find that at a certain point, the temperature of the CMB matches the average temperature of the matter at the temperature where hydrogen becomes opaque. Prior to this point, all the hydrogen was opaque, and thus the matter and radiation remain in equilibrium, and after this point, the hydrogen became transparent, releasing the radiation, and the eqilibrium was lost.
 
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[5] Radiation and Atoms (2) Introduction to the fundamental constants

The distance between the electron bands, and hence the energies, is a function of a number of fundamental properties. The radius is a function of the charge on an electron, the mass of the proton the permeability of free space (see speed of light) and plancks constant. If any of these things have changed, then we would observe it in the changes of the positions of the energy levels. Regardless of how far away we look, we do not see any such changes. The changes we do see cannot be accounted for by canging these constants, which would have a far more complex effect on the lines than say, red shift, which results in a uniform shift towards the red end of the spectrum. Here for example are the hydrogen lines from a number of galaxies of differing distance:

Red_shift.jpg


So already we have one piece of evidence in the pan which shows that the constants have not changed: the particular energies of the absorption and emission lines of atoms. Are there any others? Well as I pointed out, the constants include the permeability of free space, plancks constant, the charge on the electron and mass of the proton, so where else do these constants pop up?
Perhaps the most important place is in the fine structure constant.

[6] The Fine Structure Constant.

The fine structure constant is a number that characterizes the strength of electromagnetic interaction. alteration in the fine structure consant would have massive implications right across observed physics, affecting the fusion rates and structures of stars, suprnovae, the energies of particles emitted in fusion and fission events, the stability of atoms and chemistry. It is calculated from plancks constant, the charge on the electron, the speed of light in vacuum and the permittivity of free space, and is a dimensionless constant. If any of those values changes, it would become immediately apparent in the way things appear. Needless to say, wherever we look, we do not see variations from the same stuff as we see in the lab, right here on earth right now. The decay rates of short lived elements such as Cobalt 56 produced and observed in Supernova events such as SN 1987A are the same as here in labs on earth, and they would not be if the fine structure constant changed. The structures of stars would not be the same due to the different balances of radiation pressure and gravitational pressures in stars, the radiative and convective processes of stars, which all use the same sorts of physics as we can see in the lab. neutrino fluxes (such as those observed again in SN1987A and from the sun) would be different from what we see. The fact that none of these things are different from what is observed indicates that all the constants used in the fine structure constant have not changed by more than one part in several billion since the earliest moments of the universe.

[7] The speed of light and Neutron Stars

It is occasionally suggested that the speed of light may have changed substantially, giving the appearance of old age, since light that we think came from a certain distance and hence took a certain length of time, may have taken a shorter length of time. The problem with this is that if events that we see right now occur at a certain rate, this means that they must have happened at a faster rate in the past.

Pulsars are a particular sort of Neutron star that spin, often at incredibly fast rates. They are very small, but have a high mass and are highly regular in their rotational period. The most rapid of these are the millisecond pulsars, which spin round hundreds of times per second. These millisecond pulsars have a mass about the same as our entire sun, but packed into an area about as wide as a city. for kicks, here is a comparison between the size of a neutron star and chicago:

ns.gif


Millisecond pulsars spin at rates very close to the maxumum possible rate allowable before the centripetal forces would rip them apart. If the speed of light was faster in the past, then to observe these rotating at the speed we do, they would have had to be rotating even faster in the past still, beyond their maximum possible speeds.
 
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Aggie

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Mocca asked me to post this here, so now I’m finally getting around to it. My original thread about this can be found here, and the article in question is here.
The body and soul of Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution was his idea that evolution was made possible through natural selection. This concept is based on the suggestion that those members of a species that are a little stronger, a little larger, or run a little faster will live longer to procreate offspring with these superior adaptations. Darwin's theory suggests that millions of generations later the changes will result in new species. These adaptations are called links or intermediates.
This is an oversimplification, but no major problems here quite yet. On to the next paragraph…

The idea of natural selection sounds great when considering deer. The deer that can sense danger the quickest and run the fastest are able to escape the predator on a more consistent basis. However, other examples on the evolutionary tree have many laughable flaws. One of the best is the thought that a bird began to evolve a wing. Why this would occur is not answered by evolutionists. The wing stub did not make the bird more adaptable in his environment. The wing was much too small for the bird to fly. Why would a bird evolve a wing that was useless? This is backwards from the evolutionary natural selection concept that birds adapt and change in order to survive better in their environment. The bird with a half-size wing is placed at a disa6dvantage in its environment. Why would the bird continue for millions of generations improving a wing that was useless? The theory of evolution is based on natural selection of the most adaptable member of a species. A bird with a useless wing is at a severe disadvantage and the opposite from natural selection. According to natural selection the members of the bird species with the smallest useless wing would be the most adaptable and most likely to survive in the largest numbers. According to the theory of natural selection birds could never evolve to fly. Evolution is simply nonsense. This is so funny.
Its seems as though the person who wrote this article never even read a children’s book about the origin of birds, since that would have been enough for them to learn that paleontologists have never suggested the existence of the sort of half-sized wing described here. The evolution of wings went through a few stages, each documented by fossils, which are as follows.

Stage 1: grasping forearms

coelophysisbaurimanus.jpg

(Drawn by Robert Gay)

Most people probably wouldn’t consider this a wing, but I’m including it for completeness’s sake because it’s what wings were developed from. This is from the dinosaur Coelophysis bauri, an early theropod (carnivorous dinosaur) from about 225 million years ago. Like most theropods it was bipedal, which freed its forelimbs to be used for capturing and holding onto prey.

Although this doesn’t resemble a bird’s wing very much, its skeletal anatomy is already fairly similar to what’s found in birds. For example, this animal’s clavicles had been fused into a furcula (or “wishbone”) because this helped it to hold onto its prey. Unfortunately, I was unable to find a picture of this.

Stage 2: grasping forearms with insulatory feathers

sinosauropteryx1.jpg


This dinosaur, Sinosauropteryx prima, still had arms that were functionally pretty similar to what Coelophysis had. Unlike Coelophysis, however, its fossils preserve a covering of hair-like filaments that were probably used as insulation. When this dinosaur was discovered in 1996, it was the first direct evidence of anything of this nature in a non-avian theropod, lending support to a theory proposed ten years earlier by Gregory Paul and Robert Bakker that the first feathers evolved in dinosaurs for a purpose unrelated to flight.

Here a couple attempted creationists rebuttals about this, and the problems with them.

1: These might not really be primitive feathers; maybe they’re collagen fibers or the sort of frill found on the back of an iguana.

Upon closer examination, though, it’s clear that this isn’t the case. Unlike collagen fibers, these filaments are visibly hollow, and occur in the wrong places on the animal to be an iguana-like frill. While this sort of frill also occurs only in a single line along the backs of animals that have it, there are overlapping layers of these filaments visible along the back of Sinosauropteryx, and the fossil’s counterslab shows them extending down the animal’s sides also.

2: Sinosauropteryx lived after the earliest known bird (Archaeopteryx) so it must be irrelevant to bird evolution.

It’s true that Sinosauropteryx lived later than the first birds, but this fact isn’t as significant as creationists make it out to be. Nobody is claiming that Sinosauropteryx is a direct bird ancestor, but only that it shows an example of the type of animal from which birds evolved. Birds would have been descended from an earlier animal similar to this, such as Compsognathus. The reason I’m using Sinosauropteryx as an example instead of Compsognathus is because skin impressions of the latter have never been found.

Stage 3: grasping forearms with fringes of contour feathers

caudipteryx.jpg


This dinosaur, Caudipteryx zoui, has hands with a skeletal structure more similar to that of birds than Sinosauropteryx’s is, but the most important difference is that its feathers have developed into long plumes that were probably used for displaying to rivals or potential mates. These are preserved on both its arms and tail. These feathers show interlocking barbs and barbules, the same as exist on modern birds. However, because of the symmetry of these feathers and the short length of Caudipteryx’s arms relative to the size of its body, it’s unlikely that Caudipteryx could fly.

An attempted creationist rebuttal: What if this is just a flightless bird?

Gregory Paul, a legitimate paleontologist, has proposed this theory also. But what creationist fail to realize about this is that if Caudipteryx is a bird, it has so many traits associated only with nonavian dinosaurs that it would have had to regain several features of dinosaurs that aren’t present in birds. This would only have been possible if birds were descended from dinosaurs, and still had some of the genetic code for the traits that were being regained. Two of this animal’s most notable uniquely dinosaurian features are its forward-pointing pubis, and the contact in its ankle joint between the calcanaeum and the fibula.

Stage 4: gliding/early flying

05-38_MicroraporWeb.jpg


This animal, Microraptor gui, has asymmetrical feathers. This is an adaptation that modern birds use to ensure that they push themselves up with each downstroke of their wings more than they push themselves down with each upstroke, so it means that Microraptor gui was probably capable of a primitive form of powered flight.

This animal is unique in that it had flight feathers on both its front and hind limbs, which is something that William Beebe hypothesized approximately 100 years ago would have existed in the ancestors of birds. However, its legs lacked the muscle arrangement that would have been necessary for it to flap the “wings” on them, so these were probably used primarily for gliding. This, and the type of environment in which Microraptor gui lived has led paleontologists to conclude that it was arboreal, and used its wings to glide from tree to tree in the same manner as a flying squirrel.

This provides some insight into the development of flight. Young birds of some species are able to use their wings as an airfoil to press themselves onto tree trunks in order to help them climb, so this is one possible use for primitive wings in an arboreal dinosaur. Eventually this method would have been combined with gliding in order to lengthen and steer its leaps, until it was able to remain airborne under its own power.

Two of the main creationist claims about Microraptor are that it’s actually a bird, and that it lived too late to be a bird ancestor. Since I’ve already dealt with these claims about Sinosauropteryx and Caudipteryx, the main point I’m going to address about this is AiG’s argument about wings being used for traction: But it makes no sense that natural selection for traction should lead to flight. Rather, on the face of it, traction would require the opposite force to lift, so the selective direction would be away from flight.

However, this shows a lack of knowledge about how the method of using wings for traction actually works. Birds that do this tilt their bodies towards the surface they’re climbing, so that their wings push them forward rather than up. By inclining their bodies the opposite direction, they could alternatively use their wings to push themselves away from the surface in order to take off from it. This is similar to the way a spoiler works on a race car: it’s essentially the same structure as an airplane wing, the only difference being that it’s used to push a car down rather than push an airplane up.
 
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Aggie

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Stage 5: the first birds

archie2.jpg


I probably don’t even need to say what this animal is, since it’s the most famous of all the transitional forms between dinosaurs and birds: Archaeopteryx. There are two known species of Archaeopteryx, A. lithograhica and A. baravica. I’ll explain in a minute why this is important.

Under the Linnaean system of taxonomy, this is both the earliest known bird, and anatomically the most primitive. Creationists have a tendency to make a big deal out of the fact that it’s classified as a bird rather than a dinosaur, despite the fact that there’s essentially an arbitrary distinction between the two. This animal is no more different from Microraptor gui than a leopard is from a cheetah, and the only reason why Microraptor is classified as a reptile and Archaeopteryx as a bird is because the Linnaean system forces a line between the two classes to be drawn somewhere in this transition.

Like Microraptor gui, both species of Archaeopteryx have asymmetrical flight feathers. Archaeopteryx also had fairly well-developed flight muscles that attached to its furcula, which probably would have been enough for it to fly short distances. However, in almost every respect it retains the skeletal anatomy of a theropod dinosaur, and specimens of it have initially been misidentified as belonging to the dinosaur Compsognathus on two separate occasions.

This is the aspect of Archaeopteryx that creationists attack most often: they claim that it’s merely a bird, with nothing uniquely dinosaurian about it. However, this overlooks quite a few important traits it has in common with dinosaurs that are atypical of birds:
  1. It has teeth. Teeth are present in almost all theropods (with only a few specialized exceptions, such as oviraptorids) but not in any modern birds.
  2. It has ventral ribs (gastralia). This is typical of reptiles and dinosaurs, but not birds.
  3. It lacks a triosseal canal, the pulley-like shoulder joint that enables modern birds to take off from the ground by performing a wing flip. Instead, the shoulder joint of Archaeopteryx has the same structure as that of theropod dinosaurs.
  4. Its spine enters its skull from the rear, rather than the bottom. This is typical of dinosaurs but not birds.
  5. It doesn’t have a carinate (keeled) sternum. Archaeopteryx lithographica doesn’t have a sternum at all; all it has is a pair of unfused sternal plates, which are found in most theropods but no modern birds. These plates are fused in Archaeopteryx bavarica, but the sternum still doesn’t have a carina. The only modern birds that lack a carinate sternum are those that either lost the ability to fly early in their evolution (ratites), or those that lost it secondarily because of a unique lifestyle, such as the Hoatzin.

    EDIT: a friend of mine just told me about a new study I wasn’t aware of, suggesting that what was previously identified as the sternum of A. baravica may have in fact been one of its coracoids. If this is correct, both species of Archaeopteryx probably had unfused sternal plates instead of an ossified sternum. My main point remains the same, though: there are no living birds that have this.

    The article about this new study is at http://dml.cmnh.org/2005Feb/msg00544.html.
There are more than 20 uniquely dinosaurian traits present in Archaeopteryx, but I don’t have the space to list them all here. Talk.Origins has a more complete list at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/archaeopteryx/info.html#reptile-features

One other creationist claim about this: “Maybe Archaeopteryx is a forgery created to provide false support for Darwin’s theory of evolution.”

There are too many problems with this claim to list, but the most obvious is that the Teyler specimen of Achaeopteryx was discovered about four years before Darwin published his theory. If the creationists claiming this were correct, someone would have had to forge this fossil in an effort to support a theory that didn’t exist yet. Although Answers in Genesis does not recognize the problems with the “it’s just a bird” argument, they’ve recognized that the forgery argument is so obviously false that they’ve asked creationists to stop using it.

One other thing worth pointing out about this is that in November of 1999, National Geographic published an article about a feathered dinosaur that was indeed a forgery, which had been given the name “Archaeoraptor”. However, the Chinese peasants responsible for this hoax created it only because they wanted to increase the market value of the fossil, not to provide unwarranted support for evolution. The two fossils from which this chimera was constructed, Yanornis martini and Microraptor zhaoianus, are important enough transitional fossils in their own right that they would have provided stronger evidence for the dinosaurian ancestry of birds if they had been kept separate.

Before I move on to the rest of BibleLife’s article about bird origins, I’d like to point out that none of these fossils actually prove the existence of an evolutionary link between dinosaurs and birds. Outside of mathematics, it’s impossible to prove anything with 100% certainty. However, the theory that birds are descended from dinosaurs explains this evidence in a way that no other theory can, and the only alternative explanation for a creationist is that God created this evidence with the specific intention of deceiving us. And if you’re going to claim that God is a liar, Whether or not the theory of evolution is true is likely to be the least of your worries.

Here’s the rest of BibleLife’s article:

We are then led to believe that some birds got tired of carrying around a worthless half-size wing so they grew fingers on the end to help climb trees. The wings became arms and a new species was developed. Evolutionists actually believe this nonsense.
As should be clear from my description of the five stages in the evolution of flight, the author of this article has reversed the order in which this transition occurred. Grasping hands didn’t develop from wings; it was the other way around. I think the explanation I’ve already provided is sufficient too show what’s wrong with this claim.

The theory of "natural selection" is the basis and foundation for the Theory of Evolution. The existence of birds literally destroys the theory of natural selection sending the Theory of Evolution crashing like Tweety bird below. The rest of this page stomps and grinds the failed Theory of Evolution into dust..

tweety.gif


The bird is said by evolutionists to grow hollow bones for less weight in order to fly. How would a bird pass this long-term plan to the millions of generations in order to keep the lighter bone plan progressing? The idea that birds or anything else has million-generation evolutionary plans is childish. The evolutionary concept of growing a wing over millions of generations violates the very foundation of evolution, natural selection.
I swear I’m not making this up—the original article actually contains this image. Perhaps at some point, Warner Brothers can be persuaded to shut down BibleLife.org for violating their copyright.

Other than the same displays of ignorance that are found throughout the article, there’s one other claim here that’s worth addressing. No paleontologists currently hold the theory that hollow bones originally evolved in dinosaurs for the purpose of flight. As early on as stage 1, in dinosaurs such as Coelophysis, their bones were becoming hollow simply because the improvement in agility this brought them made it easier for them to capture prey. This eventually became one of the traits that enabled dinosaurs to evolve flight, but the animals in which it first evolved never planned for this to happen.

This presents a flaw in ID theory’s claim about “irreducible complexity”. ID theorists have used flight in birds as an example of something that couldn’t have have evolved because it wouldn’t be possible without several different elements working together, none of which would have been useful for flight on its own. What this theory fails to take into account, however, is that in most cases of “irreducible complexity” these sorts of traits originally evolved for purposes completely unrelated to their current use. In the case of bird evolution, flight became possible in theropod dinosaurs as a result of several different traits they had evolved for the purpose of display, predation, and mobility.
 
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sfs

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Common ancestry of humans and chimpanzees: mutations

I am going to describe here a small part of the genetic evidence for common ancestry of humans and chimpanzees, which is one tiny piece of the overall evolutionary picture of life. I hope it will give some idea of what geneticists see when they compare species, and why they rely on evolution for interpreting their observations. The data come two sources: first, the comparison of the human and chimpanzee genomes (in whole or in part), which gives detailed information about huma-chimpanzee genetic divergence, and second, the study of genetic variation between humans, which gives information about human genetic diversity.

First, some background. Humans and chimpanzees are thought to have diverged from a common ancestral species about five to seven million years ago. This means that if you compare a human chromosome with the corresponding chimpanzee chromosome, the two pieces of DNA were originally identical, because they were once the same chromosome. (Note: the last common ancestor of the two chromosomes is actually somewhat further back in time than the species split, by a million years or so. This is because you also have to include the time to get back to the common ancestor of two chromosomes within the ancestral species. So I will use seven million years as the time to the last common ancestral chromosome.) Of course, this assumes that the evolutionary picture is true.

Humans and chimpanzees differ genetically because during those seven million years, mutations have been accumulating in both species' genomes. The great majority, perhaps 95%, of these can be treated as being selectively neutral, neither helping nor hurting the organism; mostly, in fact, they do nothing at all. These are the mutations I am interested in. Since they do not have any effect on survival, these mutations accumulate steadily, with a new crop being added every generation. Similarly, all genetic differences between individual humans are the result of mutations accumulated over the last several hundred thousand years. Presumably this is very different from most creationist scenarios, in which the human and chimpanzee genomes were indidually created with whatever characteristics and genes the creator desired, while human variants are either the result of a short period of mutation or were created in Adam and Eve. (I say presumably because there are not many detailed creationist models of genetics.)

What are these mutations? They are any change in genetic information that can be passed to offspring. The genome can be thought of as a string of letters (called nucleotides, or bases), some of which spell out words (genes). (In this alphabet, though, there are only four letters, A, C, G and T). In the human or chimpanzee genome there are three billion of these letters, grouped into a couple of dozen chromosomes. A mutation can be a change from one letter to another (an A to a T, for example), or it can be the deletion of a group of nucleotides, or the addition or inversion of a group, or the fusion or splitting of whole chromosomes. The first of these, the single-base substitution (the replacement of a single nucleotide by another) is the most common kind of mutation and the best studied, so that is what I will focus on.

The scientific question then is this: Do genetic differences between humans and chimpanzees look like they are the result of lots of accumulated mutations? What predictions about the differences can one make, based on the hypothesis that they are all the result of mutation?

Total divergence

For starters, we should be able to predict how different the genomes should be. The seven million years of evolution in each lineage represents about 350,000 generations in each (assuming 20 years per generation). How many mutations happen per generation? Estimating mutation rates is not easy (at least without assuming common descent): it is hard to find a few changed nucleotides out of 3 billion that have not changed. By studying new cases of genetic diseases, individuals whose parents' do not have the disease, however, it is possible to identify and count new mutations, at least in a small number of genes. Using this technique, it has been estimated[1] that the single-base substitution rate for humans is approximately 1.7 x 10^-8 substitutions/nucleotide/generation, that is, 17 changes per billion nucleotides. That translates into ~100 new mutations for every human birth. (17 x 3, for the 3 billion nucleotides in the genome, x 2 for the two genome copies we each carry). At that rate, in 350,000 generations a copy of the human genome should have accumulated about 18 million mutations, while the chimpanzee genome should have accumulated a similar number.

The evolutionary prediction, then, is that there should be roughly 36 million single-base differences between humans and chimpanzees. The actual number could be determined when both the chimpanzee and human genomes had been completely sequenced. When the two genomes were compared[2], thirty-five million substitutions were found, in remarkably good agreement with the evolutionary expectation. Fortuitously good agreement, in fact: the uncertainty on most of the numbers used in the estimate is large enough that it took luck to come that close.

Types of mutation

Next, we can analyze different types of substitution. This is worth doing because not all sites in the genome mutate at the same rate, which means that we should expect to find different levels of divergence at different kinds of site. One important consideration is simply which nucleotide is doing the mutating. The bases A and G are chemically similar to one another, as are C and T. A nucleotide is more likely to be replaced by a similar one; as a result, rates for mutations between similar nucleotides (called transitions) are higher than for mutations between dissimilar ones (called transversions). Another important effect is that one particular combination of nucleotides is unusually prone to mutation: a C followed by a G (called a "CpG") is chemically unstable under some circumstances, and is known to mutate at very high rates. Thus, in the disease study mentioned above, the mutation rate at CpG sites was 11 times higher than the non-CpG rate. The rate for transitions was also found to be higher than the transversion rate, by more than a factor of three.

The prediction from common descent is that human-chimpanzee differences should show the same pattern. They do. In a human-chimpanzee comparison[3], transition differences were 2.4 times
as common as transversions, and substitutions at CpG sites were 17 times as common as at non-CpG sites; the agreement with the mutation rate estimates is quite good, considering the large uncertainties on the latter. In other words, we see the same pattern in new mutations occurring in humans today as in the genetic differences between humans and chimpanzees. This is to be expected if the same process, random mutation, is driving both phenomena; it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense in other models.

It is also possible to make a better test than the crude mutation rate estimates permit. We can do this by looking at the genetic differences between individual humans, since these differences are also (according to standard evolutionary thinking) the result of accumulated mutations. The test is to see whether patterns in genetic diversity within humans match those already described for human-chimpanzee divergence. This comparison has been done[3]. Here are the results:

mutclassA.png

mutclassB.png


The first plot shows the pattern for the human-chimpanzee comparison, while the second shows the pattern for human diversity. Differences are broken down into CpG and non-CpG, and into transitions ("Ti") and the three kinds of transversion (G<->C, A<->T, and A<->C/G<->T). The similarity of the two patterns is striking. It is difficult to escape the conclusion that genetic diversity among humans and genetic divergence between humans and chimpanzees have both been produced by accumulated mutations.

Local mutation rate

We can use the same technique, comparing human diversity with human-chimpanzee divergence, to look at various regions of the genome, rather than at different kinds of sites. It is well known that the mutation rate varies somewhat from place to place on the chromosomes. If the hypothesis of common descent is correct, parts of the genome with higher mutation rates should show both a larger divergence between species and more variation within a single species. It is a simple matter to compare the two and see if there really is this kind of correlation. Here is the comparison:

div_pi.gif


For the figure, I divided the genome into 1 million nucleotide windows and calculated divergence and diversity within each window. Each point on the plot represents one window, with the human diversity along the x axis and the human-chimpanzee divergence along the y axis. As expected, there is a strong correlation between the two: spots with large divergence are very likely to have large diversity as well. Again, this is a simple prediction from common descent, and I cannot think of any reason why it should be true in a creationist model.

Mutation on the sex chromosomes

Yet another way that mutation rates vary is by the sex of the parent. For many mutations, it is known that males have a higher rate of mutation than females, at least in part because it takes many more cycles of cell division to generate sperm than eggs. One implication of this is that the X and Y chromosomes should accumulate mutations at different rates from the rest of the chromosomes (the autosomes), since the Y chromosome is only found in males, while the X chromosome spends two/thirds of its evolutionary life in females. The prediction from common descent, therefore, is that human-chimpanzee divergence should be higher on the Y and lower on the X than on the autosomes. In this case a quantitative prediction is hard to make, since the size of the effect can only be measured by assuming common ancestry. The qualitative prediction, however, has been confirmed very nicely by observation[2]: divergence on the X chromosome, the Y chromosome and the autosomes is, respectively, 0.94%, 1.90% and 1.23%.

Conclusion

Consistently, the hypothesis of common ancestry makes accurate predictions about the comparative genetics of humans and chimpanzees. No other hypothesis has been offered that provides any kind of useful prediction. Not surprisingly, geneticists overwhelming use evolution, because that is what works.

References

[1] Kondrashov AS. Direct estimates of human per nucleotide mutation rates at 20 loci causing Mendelian diseases. Human Mutation 21:12-27 (2003).

[2] The Chimpanzee Sequencing and Analysis Consortium. Initial sequencing of the chimpanzee genome and comparison with the human genome. Nature 437:69-87 (2005).

[3] Ingo Ebersberger, Dirk Metzler, Carsten Schwarz, and Svante Paabo. Genomewide Comparison of DNA Sequences between Humans and Chimpanzees. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 70:1490-1497 (2002).
 
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juvenissun

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What are we to think when we find karsts very deep in the geologic record with evidence that the collapse occurred during the middle of the geologic column?

(someone reminded me on this old post, which nobody tried to respond at that time)

Your post is very long and I am not sure where is the focus. So I pick the very first question.

"deep in the geologic record" could mean: 1: old rock; 2: deep rock. A reasonable choice is: an old rock layer, such as a layer of Ordovician Limestone.

"collapse occurred during the middle of the geologic column" is interpreted as: Karst cavity or Karst refill is found in a limestone layer.

What do I (a YEC) think about that? Not much. These features are not more significant than other Karst features.

So, what?
 
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