The question of lying

[Saint Steven]

I only intended to defend the reputation of Christ, and what I thought Colossians said about lying. Besides, I don't have an answer. But, the Lord does. I'll pray that He'll give you the answer you seek. I'm sorry if I misread your thread and wasted your time. I only intended to present what I thought Jesus would have done in that situation. Feel free to disagree with me. As to whether the Priest had done the correct thing is for God Almighty to judge. Kindly excuse me and God bless.

Thanks for your reply.

I just realized that you are caught in a conundrum here.

On the one hand you believe that making a false statement (lying) is never permitted for a Christian to do. (I believe you are not fully understanding the scripture you quote on that) On the other hand you are making statements to defend Christ that would be considered perjury in a court of law. (lying to the judge)

Which of us (you and I) are being more honest about this?

 

[Tomb523]

Excellent argument. Hopefully, the Lord will accept it. I'll have to disagree as well, and I stand with Colossians 3:9. I don't recall the Lord ever lying, so that something good may happen.

I started out after reading the original post thinking the lie of the priest of ok, but then I started to look at your Colossian 3:9. I went to all my commentaries and read through, not just 3:9, but all of chapter 3. As in all things in scripture, context is highly important and in the context of this Chapter, it is important we not lie to one another as brothers and sisters in Christ and any lie that leads to our own personal gain is bad without doubt. In the case of the priest, had he been lying to say a bishop and it was the church who was upholding the values, then the lie would have been wrong, but because the lie did not intend to cause a benefit to the priest, it was not to a person in Christ and it did not harm, albeit the opposite of harming, the thief by bearing false witness then it wasn't a sinful lie. IN fact, you could consider it an act of forgiveness on the part of the Priest. It was the Priest who was injuried by the theft and yet he forgave the man and, in the end, gave him the silver. The act of forgiveness changed the truth.

 

[friend of]

This thread just made me think of Matthew 5:19

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Saint Steven]

This thread just made me think of Matthew 5:19

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Which are "the least of these commands"?

 

[friend of]

Which are "the least of these commands"?

lying would be the least of the commandments due to the ease of violating the command "do not bear false witness" I think for integrity's sake we shouldn't teach violating any commandment, nor make concession for the violation thereof. But I would agree, if it works to save someone or bring another to repentance, then the ends (fibbing) justifies the means. I just wanted to point out be careful here

 

[Saint Steven]

lying would be the least of the commandments due to the ease of violating the command "do not bear false witness" I think for integrity's sake we shouldn't teach violating any commandment, nor make concession for the violation thereof. But I would agree, if it works to save someone or bring another to repentance, then the ends (fibbing) justifies the means. I just wanted to point out be careful here

How did you arrive at that conclusion? (curious)
That "lying would be the least of the commandments"?
Other than the reasoning of "due to the ease of violating"?
Also, the scripture you quoted used the word "commands", not "commandments".

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is that sometimes translated "Words", or "Instructions", or "directions"
or
by unbelievers even translated "advice" (as if optional).....

 

[friend of]

Yes, i believe the Lord was speaking about Commandments when he issued that command.

Other than the reasoning of "due to the ease of violating"?

Nope. That is the main reason. It's super easy to lie with the tongue. The mouth is a small vessel that makes great boasts and can change ones course on the waters of faith instantly. We must be very careful to guard this member.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, i believe the Lord was speaking about Commandments when he issued that command.

Nope. That is the main reason. It's super easy to lie with the tongue. The mouth is a small vessel that makes great boasts and can change ones course on the waters of faith instantly. We must be very careful to guard this member.

That sounds like a BIG thing. Why would it be least?
Let's check the context.

James 3:2-6
We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.
3 When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal.
4 Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go.
5 Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark.
6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

 

[friend of]

That sounds like a BIG thing. Why would it be least?
Let's check the context.

Thanks for James quote. What would a lesser sin be in your opinion?

 

[Saint Steven]

Thanks for James quote. What would a lesser sin be in your opinion?

The question is: "Which are the least of these commands?" (or commandments)

I don't know the answer. And I've never received a reasonable response to the question.
Those who quote that scripture are always focused on something else.

The same passage says:

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, the next question is:
How do you abolish a Prophet?

 

[friend of]

To make what they've said to be worthless, I would think. Jesus came to fulfill their prophecies where the religious leaders condemned what the prophets said.

 

[Gell]

The second great commandment is to love neighbor and I believe this is where the 'thou shalt not lie' comes from. It's always a problem of the heart, an ill-will towards another.
When you gave the medicine, did you have an ill-will for the person in your heart? No, far from it actually.
This is not to condone lying. At the end of the day, the heart of the matter is the matter of the heart.

 

[Saint Steven]

To make what they've said to be worthless, I would think. Jesus came to fulfill their prophecies where the religious leaders condemned what the prophets said.

That's good.
After Jesus' resurrection from the dead, he had this to say about it.

Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Many claim that Matthew chapter five is supportive of "the law". When in fact it was putting the law aside. Even the "You have heard that it was said... But I tell you..." statements were treating the law as hearsay and replacing them with Christ's commands.

The Apostle Paul said of the law and the resurrection:

Romans 7:4
So, my brothers and sisters,
you also died to the law through the body of Christ,
that you might belong to another,
to him who was raised from the dead,
in order that we might bear fruit for God.

 

[Saint Steven]

Perhaps a definition is in order. (Wiki)

A lie is a statement that is known or intended by its source to be misleading, inaccurate, or false. The practice of communicating lies is called lying, and a person who communicates a lie may be termed a liar. Lies may be employed to serve a variety of instrumental, interpersonal, or psychological functions for the individuals who use them.

 

[grasping the after wind]

The motive is a key issue with false information given.

I would agree and contend that the motive is rarely benevolent and almost always self serving. That being the case, I would advise everyone to find a way to always speak the truth. It is so very easy to come up with a reason why a lie that benefits me in some way is actually motivated by my concern for someone else's interest. I admit that there may be a very extremely rare situation in which a lie might be the lesser of two evils, but those extremely rare situations are not somehow every day occurrences and the vast majority of people the vast majority of times will not encounter them. The likelihood that a person will contend that their motives were pure far exceeds the times such situations occur. As , from my experience with my own frame of mind and those I have had contact with, people tend to be deceptive , especially as concerns their motivations and especially as they narrate things to their own selves on that, it is much safer to assume that one is fooling oneself if one is trying to convince oneself that the lie one told was for the benefit of someone else rather than for one's own benefit.

 

[Saint Steven]

I would agree and contend that the motive is rarely benevolent and almost always self serving. That being the case, I would advise everyone to find a way to always speak the truth. It is so very easy to come up with a reason why a lie that benefits me in some way is actually motivated by my concern for someone else's interest. I admit that there may be a very extremely rare situation in which a lie might be the lesser of two evils, but those extremely rare situations are not somehow every day occurrences and the vast majority of people the vast majority of times will not encounter them. The likelihood that a person will contend that their motives were pure far exceeds the times such situations occur. As , from my experience with my own frame of mind and those I have had contact with, people tend to be deceptive , especially as concerns their motivations and especially as they narrate things to their own selves on that, it is much safer to assume that one is fooling oneself if one is trying to convince oneself that the lie one told was for the benefit of someone else rather than for one's own benefit.

I agree.

There is also a societal aspect to this. Currently a scourge. To be labeled as a liar is one of the most damaging things that can happen to a person's reputation. But what do we see? People being labeled right and left. And oftentimes over a difference of opinion, or an unintentionally inaccurate statement, or inference.

Even in an encounter with police. They are quick to accuse someone of lying. Quite ironic considering that they are trained to lie (or use deceptive tactics) in order to get the desired result. Correct me if I am wrong on this.

 

[JoeP222w]

Is lying ever justified? Let me give you two examples.

The first one is fictional. In the book Les Miserables from Victor Hugo, the prisoner Valjean, who was on parole, stole silver from a priest. However, when he was caught and brought before the priest, he made up a lie and said that he gave the silver to Valjean. This touched Valjean so much, that he dedicated his life to God after that. If the priest would've told the truth, Valjean would've perished, but through his lie Valjean's life and soul were saved. Did the priest sin?

The second example is real. The other day, there was a parkinson patient, who was suffering side effects from his medication, which causes symptoms similar to schizophrenia. He was aggressive at first, then he despaired and was calling for his wife, wanting to ser her one last time. It was important, that the took another pill, which is ease the symptoms, but he wouldn't. The only way I managed to calm him down, so he could get take his pill and not hurt himself as well as him not becoming a problem for the next shift was for me to lie to him and to say I spoke with his wife and she told me that he needs to take his pill and that she would visit him tomorrow. He believed me, took it and calmed down. Chances are good, that he will not recall his instance. These sort of situations are common with parkinson patients. Still, I told him lie with a clear intention of doing so. Did I sin?

I know that the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment is falsy translated, as the action is question is murder (taking an innocent life with a malicious intent). However, I do not think this is the case with lying, unless "giving false testimony" is different than lying. None of the above had a malicious intent and were both meant to help the person.

Thoughts?

Lying is never justified, because God never lies. And the majority of time that people lie is to get themselves out of an uncomfortable or inconvenient situation, where telling the truth is very difficult. God never said it was ok to sin just because something is very difficult.

Remaining silent is not a lie.

 

[Saint Steven]

Lying is never justified, because God never lies. And the majority of time that people lie is to get themselves out of an uncomfortable or inconvenient situation, where telling the truth is very difficult. God never said it was ok to sin just because something is very difficult.

Remaining silent is not a lie.

That's interesting. You contradicted yourself.

You say that "Lying is never justified...", but then say, "the majority of time that people lie..."

The "majority of time"? What about the "times" outside of the majority of times? Are you not justifying those times? (even though you claim lying is NEVER justified)

You also say, "Remaining silent is not a lie."
But, remaining silent may be a betrayal for personal gain. Would that be a sin?

If you had to choose between honoring a confidence (or protecting private information) would you remain silent to preference your own reputation above that of another? Especially when your silence obviously confirms the inquiry.

 

[Saint Steven]

Lying is never justified, because God never lies. And the majority of time that people lie is to get themselves out of an uncomfortable or inconvenient situation, where telling the truth is very difficult. God never said it was ok to sin just because something is very difficult.

Remaining silent is not a lie.

---- SORRY this is a duplicate post ----

That's interesting. You contradicted yourself.

You say that "Lying is never justified...", but then say, "the majority of time that people lie..."

The "majority of time"? What about the "times" outside of the majority of times? Are you not justifying those times? (even though you claim lying is NEVER justified)