The question Evolutionsists can't answer

[Nathan David]

You're right, the_gloaming. I assumed #1 was true for the purposes of my response, and that's why my response isn't entirely correct. I don't think my dog makes a conscious decision to eat horse manure, but she sure takes pleasure in it.

 

[the_gloaming]

OK, no problem.

Volition: animals desire sex, and make a conscious decision (volition) to pursue sexual relations.

Perception: animals perceive that they enjoy sex.

I disagree in terms of a definition of conscious. I'm not sure how many animals out there can [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] but I would think only humans and maybe chimps would be able to make a conscious decision, if being conscious means being self-aware.

 

[Jet Black]

dolphins also show self awareness.

 

[the_gloaming]

I don't think my dog makes a conscious decision to eat horse manure, but she sure takes pleasure in it.

haha...i know what you mean...i'm pretty sure my labrador enjoys it too. It's mostly semantics though; I had to check the dictionary several times for words which I thought I understood the meaning of but had to make sure.

 

[the_gloaming]

dolphins also show self awareness.

Oh yeah...oops. Anyone know if they have [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] ?

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Not more NECESSARY more EFFECTIVE. To use an analogy, a bow and arrow will kill, but a gun is far more efficient.
You are comparing apples with oranges: evolution has no perception or intelligence. You analogy is moot.

I am not comparing anything I am using an analogy to illustrate the difference between the words "Necessary" and "effective" in the hope you will grasp it. Evidently not. The point still stands, we are discussing something which increases efficiency here not something which is necessary. Since analogies seem to baffle you I am not certain how else I can explain the conceptual difference.

Ghost

 

[DJ_Ghost]

I think this is the best worded of the many correct answers to the questions in the OP.

I also think there is a misconception in the OP. Animals do not desire [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], they desire sex. Once they experience [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], they are likely to desire sex even more through simple Pavlovian conditioning.

Exactly.

Ghost

 

[Jimmy The Hand]

After reading this entire thread, I am finally convinced.

We really did come from a rock.

And some of us didn't get very far.

 

[Něco hrubého oprýskaného 1]

...nevermind...

 

[PhantomLlama]

...nevermind...

You win the username prize.

 

[Něco hrubého oprýskaného 1]

What category is my prize in?

Ridiculousness?
Unpronounceability?

 

[PhantomLlama]

What category is my prize in?

Ridiculousness?
Unpronounceability?

Both.

Also the special award for largest number of non-standard characters.

How do you pronounce it, anyway?

 

[Něco hrubého oprýskaného 1]

It's not easy to explain Czech that way...There's a few online dictionaries with soundbites of each word you can find.

It's a real bummer of a language to learn, too...kind of like Georgian. People are known to commit suicide after a really good Georgian class.

 

[Mistermystery]

It's not easy to explain Czech that way...There's a few online dictionaries with soundbites of each word you can find.

It's a real bummer of a language to learn, too...kind of like Georgian. People are known to commit suicide after a really good Georgian class.

Then we just will assume that your name is "Kittycat of the Gods".

 

[Megaman]

There is also hormones which create desire for sex. If [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] were the only reason for sex, then how would one know to sexually experiment?

 

[Sopharos]

We have seen alot of bluff here. But no answers from the evolutionist camp which address the philosophical impasse.

Philosphy & Morality Forum is down the corridor to the right.

And we have seen bluff of the kind designed to suck in naive moderators to rule against things like "trolling". (Always assign a label to the opposition's style which is ostensibly in the name of diplomacy - makes you at least look noble when you lack brilliance. If you can't beat them then by your argument, at least you can disqualify them by the rules!)

Broken another record right there.

Here is a typical example of the sort of cart-before-horse thinking we get from their camp, which sums up just nicely the redundancy of their position:

Pleasure is a good incentive to reproduce. If you don't enjoy reproducing, you are less likely to be willing to invest the time and energy to reproduce
Synopsis:
I perceive a need to reproduce (of course I myself am a reproduction, but that doesn't matter here.. I'm don't notice circularity when I am presenting it), and so I have a great incentive to reproduce (afterall, if I dont reproduce, my grand children won't be able to talk about me in years to come.)

"Perception of need" is irrelevent. If a population don't develope an incentive to reproduce, it dies out, simple is that.

But although I have this great incentive, it is not great enough: I need to 'evolve' a pleasure on top of my incentive, which will become my incentive.
So the pleasure which evolves emanates out of my initial incentive to stay alive, but by some special wizardry, is more necessary than my initial incentive to stay alive (otherwise I would not have needed to evolve it).
And although I cannot evolve all of an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] in my own life-time, I pass on the part I have evolved (sort of like passing on part-pregnancy) to those whom I am currently reproducing without [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], in order that they might be able to reproduce....eh...

Buy a box of Scrabble if you want to play with words.

Having an incentive to reproduce is an evolutionary advantage. That means those without such evolutionary advantage will not survive Natural Selection and pass their genes to the next generation. They will be outcompeted and outnumbered by those that have the evolutionary advantageous feature. Perception of need is irrelevent.

Pleasure and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] makes up a primal and very effective incentive to reproduce, and that's why populations that developed [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] survived, and those didn't, well, didn't. Natural selection at it's best.

Evolutionists like trying to pull themselves off the ground by their own bootstraps.
And then they tell you this occured because their bootstraps needed to be pulled.

Oh the irony.

 

[Sopharos]

The evolutionist has convinced himself that no intelligence behaves as one with intelligence would behave.

He reasons that an organism can memorize pleasure, and then change itself so that it will get more of the same in generations to come. So he has organisms with perception, who like joy-trips, and wished they'd evolved more of them in their own life-time.
I can just hear these organisms now: "If only we'd known what pleasure we could have had earlier! Now it's too late! But let's pass on what we have learned to our progeny whom we produce without this pleasure! Yeah! Great idea!"

Once again our evolution friends have our ends producing another's path to it.
In the Republic of Evolutionary, rain falls on people because cows are wearing raincoats.

Organisms cannot change itself arccording to need, regardless of presense or absense of perception. It does't take intelligence, it's just as simple as "survival of the most evolutionarily advantaged". Harder rocks will survive a flood while sandstone and mudstone will crumble and get washed away. Pleasure is an evolutionary advantage, and so organisms that did not evolved pleasure will be outcompeted and die out.

Simple. Is. And. As. Easy. As. That.

 

[Sopharos]

Jet Black,

Here is a hint or 2 for you and your cronies (to help you get to the gist of things):

1. Pleasure has no utility where volition is absent.

Says who? You?

In this case, volition is derived from pleasure, pleasure which was developed as part of normal variation amongst populations of organisms, developement which is an evolutionary advantage, and therefore allowed those of the population with this development to outcompete those without, and those without this devlopement die out, those with lives on.

2. Pleasure is a non-entity where perception is absent.

Again, who says that? You?

In evolution, perception is irrelevant, and I've repeatedly demonstrated why.

 

[Osiris]

You need to think again, this time at the fundamental level.

I am logging off now - it is late in this part of the world. When I next attend this thread, I will expect a thoughtful response to the full ramifications of the 2 pointers I have provided in bold font.

And I shall expect such from you.

Evolution 'needs' for species to reproduce, that is the whole idea!

Species have to eat, else they will die and not be able to reproduce. Does hunger prove evolution wrong? Feeling hungry makes a specimen eat, and able to survive. In the same sense, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] make a specimen want to be able to reproduce and pass their traits down. Simple as that, next question?

ev·o·lu·tion

1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development.
2. Biology.
   1. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.

 

[Jet Black]

Oh yeah...oops. Anyone know if they have [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] ?

they seem to find sex pleasurable and do it for fun, like certain other great apes. dolphins are also one of the only animals other than humans that commit gang rape.