The question cessationists must answer.

Francis Drake · Nov 6, 2018

Anto9us said:
I feel a big majority of Christians neither speak in Tongues, Prophesy, or give Word of Knowledge themselves; yet they have no doctrinal position regarding their continuation or cessation.

I agree. Unfortunately, such people are then easy targets for cessationists who use the absence of gifts to deceive people into believing the gifts have ceased. And once they believe that lie, they will get the results of that lie, spiritual silence.

Absence of evidence, is not the same as evidence of absence.

Billy Evmur · Nov 6, 2018

GingerBeer said:
Are written prayers of the Spirit?

Was Jesu's prayers written down?

GingerBeer · Nov 6, 2018

Billy Evmur said:
Was Jesu's prayers written down?

Yes, we have a few of them in the new testament.

swordsman1 · Nov 6, 2018

Hillsage said:
I can think of two things just as dangerous.

DANGER ONE is declaring the Bible as the inerrant word when scripture itself declares that not to be the case.

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

One of the oldest copies of the Bible which dates back to the fifth century is the Codex Bezae, of which the Britannica writes: "Codex Bezae… has a text that is very different from other witnesses. Codex Bezae has many distinctive longer and shorter readings and seems almost to be a separate edition. Its 'Acts, for example, is one-tenth longer than usual’". How can we have a Bible that is said to be "almost… a separate edition"?

St. Jerome when he wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).

The veracity of those various new testament texts is way off-topic.

Hillsage said:
DANGER TWO is a fundamental preacher who loudly proclaims cessasionism and God not speaking today, but then avidly declares that he was 'CALLED to be a preacher.'

Since when did cessationists not believe God speaks today. He speaks today through scripture. It says “Your Word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path”. When cessationist preachers say they are 'called' I am quite sure they do not mean they received a prophecy or a new revelation, least of all a feeling that someone has presumptuously declared to be a 'word from the Lord' for them. This is what scripture says about people who presumptuously claim their feelings to be prophecies:

Ezekiel 13:1 "Say to those who prophesy out of their own imagination: ‘Hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing!"

Jeremiah 14:14 Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.

Jeremiah 23:16. This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord."

Jeremiah 23:26 How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds?

Not only does scripture condemn such prophecies from people's minds but the practice is wide open to abuse. Eg, someone might say "God told me you are to be my wife" or "God told me my brother's company should undertake the church building work". Innocent God-fearing believers thinking they were genuine prophecies would never dare go against the Lord's commands.

swordsman1 · Nov 6, 2018

RDKirk said:
Paul mentions Christ and His return all over the place. Multiple times in ever letter. He alludes to it in dozens of different ways, and to his audience this would be another such allusion...

Paul never said the 'the perfect' or 'completion' in 1 Cor 13 is the return of Christ. The fact that the 2nd coming is mentioned elsewhere in scripture does not give weight to that being the meaning in this particular passage. It is beside the point. Neither the 2nd coming nor the completion of the canon are explicitly named, so it is case of determining which of those 2 views are more favorable given the context.

RDKirk said:
...because he never, ever otherwise talks about a new set of scriptures coming together. There is no other witness indicating that Paul or any other apostle expected there to be a New Testament, nor is said explicitly here.

The apostles knew they were writing scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16) and that when they died there would obviously be no further apostles to write scripture. The canon would then be complete. Paul was well aware of the concept of a completed canon - he had one in his own hands, the OT. Now that they were in a new covenant era it would be perfectly reasonable for him to realise there would be a completed New Testament canon.

Dave L · Nov 6, 2018

Billy Evmur said:
So your admission is that you minister wisdom of men, in your own power and strength.

No, the Charismatic Gifts expired with the apostles. The scriptures do a far better job than those gifts. But we all are baptized in the Holy Spirit and have ministerial gifts.

Dave L · Nov 6, 2018

Billy Evmur said:
Nonsense Ananias laid his hands upon Saul and he was filled with the Holy Spirit, became Paul the greatest apostle of all.

Others received the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands.

Ananias was an apostle, one of the original 70 commissioned by Christ. And Jesus specifically sent him to Paul.

Dave L · Nov 6, 2018

Billy Evmur said:
See that is an interesting point...how then does the direction come [those which are from God?] if it is a thought it is God SPEAKING, that's is exactly how the gifts work. And I believe it is happening all the time with Christians...they just don't follow through with it.

Jesus is Lord when love determines our choices. Plus; “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (KJV 1900)

Dave L · Nov 6, 2018

RDKirk said:
Nothing says that the laying of hands is necessary.

But you move beyond scripture when you assume that.

Dave L · Nov 6, 2018

Strong in Him said:
Acts doesn't cover every event and conversion in the church, even then; never mind now.
1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12 and Ephesians 4 say that the Spirit gives gifts to the church.
The church is still present on earth - where does it say that the Spirit has stopped giving gifts and helping God's children to serve him?

Christians today have gifts from the Spirit to serve God -fact. If you are saying that such gifts, like prophecy and tongues, are fraudulent, then you are saying that they are not from God.
What did Jesus say about attributing the works of God to the devil? (You didn't use those words, but if something's not from God, there's only one other source it can be from.)

Christians have the Holy Spirit baptism and many gifts. Except the charismatic gifts expired with the apostles.

Dave L · Nov 6, 2018

NBB said:
With the Holy spirit is more like a little touch from him in your inside that let you know something, not a voice in your head. But the point is that you are saying that God is incapable of communicating with humans, why mute God if he was never like that before?
And you are limiting God in his interaction with us with this cessationism, because he can't even order us to do something.

I'm saying prophecy, tongues and word of knowledge expired with the apostles. God directs our steps internally and externally.

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (KJV 1900)

Dave L · Nov 6, 2018

Francis Drake said:
Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.

In reality, Dave denies that.
He admits to the indwelling spirit, but denies visions etc, so it could never be called "eye opening"
Dave also constantly insults those who hear the voice of that Holy Spirit.
Thus by his own proclamation, Dave is both blind and deaf, a great example of the blind leading the blind. Lol

I have never said that and do not believe it.
Look at my previous posts and you will see me calling for discernment in understanding of both prophetic words, and bible teaching.

I support all that I say with direct quotes from scripture. You need to use scripture to prove me wrong, not opinions.

Strong in Him · Nov 6, 2018

Dave L said:
Christians have the Holy Spirit baptism and many gifts. Except the charismatic gifts expired with the apostles.

What reason, and Scripture, do you have to show that some of God's gifts expired - disappeared - and not others?
I have told you of 2 miraculous healings, there have been others and many - even on these forums - will testify that they have spoken in tongues. I'd be very careful before dismissing all that testimony as "fraudulent" if I were you.

Deborah D · Nov 6, 2018

After 40 years of being a Christian and seeing the supernatural gifts operate in my life and in the lives of other Christians, I've reached the conclusion that Cessationism is straight from the pit of hell. God didn't end these gifts, but the devil is trying to rob God's people of gifts that we need to operate in the body of Christ.

I've also come to see that the Christian who has the gift of prophecy and uses it in the power of the Holy Spirit is like the canary in the coal mine. He/she is used by God to warn the church when they are getting off God's course. But this gift has been mostly silenced because of some who have abused it. It takes mature church leaders to allow the gifts to operate and make sure they aren't being abused, but it's doable and worth it!

Strong in Him · Nov 6, 2018

Dave L said:
I support all that I say with direct quotes from scripture. You need to use scripture to prove me wrong, not opinions.

You might as well say "you need to use Scripture to prove that I mustn't use a computer".
Scripture doesn't say that certain things would happen, or not be able to happen, in the church at some point in the future. It doesn't say that computers, cars, aeroplanes would be invented centuries later and that it would be either wrong, or permitted, to use them.

You need to show Scripture which says that the God who gives gifts to build up the church, Ephesians 4:11-12, would at some point stop doing that, or at least, only give selective gifts.

Dave L · Nov 6, 2018

Strong in Him said:
You might as well say "you need to use Scripture to prove that I mustn't use a computer".
Scripture doesn't say that certain things would happen, or not be able to happen, in the church at some point in the future. It doesn't say that computers, cars, aeroplanes would be invented centuries later and that it would be either wrong, or permitted, to use them.

You need to show Scripture which says that the God who gives gifts to build up the church, Ephesians 4:11-12, would at some point stop doing that, or at least, only give selective gifts.

If you add to scripture, you are in serious error. If you control yourself, and go only by what scripture says, you are on safe footing. Sola Scriptura

Dave L · Nov 6, 2018

Strong in Him said:
What reason, and Scripture, do you have to show that some of God's gifts expired - disappeared - and not others?
I have told you of 2 miraculous healings, there have been others and many - even on these forums - will testify that they have spoken in tongues. I'd be very careful before dismissing all that testimony as "fraudulent" if I were you.

If you limit yourself to what I say, the charismatic gifts expired with the Apostles. They verified the Apostles' authority. Just as miracles verified Moses' authority. But God still heals through the prayer of faith. And all believers have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. And we all have ministerial gifts.

GTW27 · Nov 6, 2018

Sam81 said:
Fountain of living water in my deepest place comes up when I pray...fear cast out...identify with cross of Christ on personal level...life and words of Jesus a BLUEPRINT and not just warm fuzzy feelings...powerful deep revelations in Bible...overwhelming understanding of the vanity of all things but JESUS...crucified to all things and Christ ressurrected in me...Acts as a BLUEPRINT and not just a history...

Yep...I love being hardcore, 100% Jesus in every waking thought, Pentecostal. But there is a cost and not everyone wants to pay it.

Not everyone wants to pray 2 hours a day and under their breath throughout the day. Not everyone wants to be confronted with obstacles that must be overcome to go deeper (its called breakthrough for a reason). Not everone wants to fall to the ground and die to win souls. They wanna sit in church on their butt and edify themselves only. What do they even need the Holy Spirit for? The Holy Spirit descends on those who are heading to die, not on those who want to live. When the spirit drops, you know where you are going. And why. May I go low, may Christ be lifted so high, and I lay my life for the sheep.

I laid it out, but not all can receive it.

In other words, "Are you willing to lay down your life so that others may live?"

Sam81 · Nov 6, 2018

GTW27 said:
In other words, "Are you willing to lay down your life so that others may live?"

I always marvel at how before I was right with God I could read the gospel of John and be moved by the words of Jesus but never once did it occur to me that He was telling me to follow and do likewise.

W2L · Nov 6, 2018

Strong in Him said:
Firstly because they may not be called to do that.
Secondly, miracles do not always produce faith. The Israelites saw the plagues of Egypt, saw the sea parting, had manna from heaven, water from a rock, and still grumbled and doubted. The Pharisees saw a dead Lazarus walking out of the tomb, and their response was to want to kill him before people believed. Another time they told Jesus that he performed miracles by the power of Satan.
Thirdly, if clearing a hospital ward would cause mass repentance and revival, God would do it. He is very capable of letting his glory be seen. He allows us to share in the miracles, but doesn't need us for them to happen.
Fourthly, how do you know that God doesn't want to heal some of these people through your prayers, or witness to them through your testimony and teaching? Have you asked him? Do you work/volunteer at a hospital so that you can take Christ onto the wards and pray for patients and staff?

BY His stripes we are healed. Thats what they say.

The question cessationists must answer.

Returning adventurer.

Brother

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