The purpose of debating

[Stryder06]

Debate or not debate that is the question!

From what I read (not just in this thread, but in others) some people seem to be a little bit against my being here. Apparently I am just copying from anti-adventist webpages, not seeking the Truth and being in need of repentance.

Well, first of all I want to share with you that I am going to post less in the time to come, maybe not all, I have thought about this before I read those post of yours today, so dont worry I took no offence. Rejoice!!!

As far as this debate thing is concerned I want to share my position with you.

As you already know I was involved with the SDA church some time ago, I know the church, I know the people, I know the strategies, there is nothing knew under the sun.

Before I got a lot of information from the internet I had some thoughts before that turned into doubts, being dissatisfied with what was going on in the church I didnt want to let it suck me dry and stopped attending. It was after that that I started to get info from the net, from people who have studied it and found some fault.

It is only natural that anti adventist sites will post negative views on SDAizm. And they are way beyond the position of seeking some affirmation on whether the SDA is the so-called true church, remnant or something...

Lets cut to the chase, after having all that info it was just interesting for me how people would react to the stuff I posted, IMHO it is disturbing info/news indeed.

From what I can read even in this post, we have a guy like ECR who is not up to debate he is up to spreading the pioneer truth, there is no room for debate, no humbleness to accept.ackowledge mistake, its just spreading some truth which doesnt necessarily have to be truth. THat is what debate is for.

Its like, does the bible allow for a glass of wine? Debate would allow all people to come up with arguments, in this case let the bible speak for its own. But no, if people say a bishop cannot drink too much wine, which in turn means he was allowed to drink at least some wine, no, we will not accept that but come up with wild theories, grape juice thing and stuff...

We live in a free world (for now, and partially of course) debate is a means of expressing opinion. THe other side of the coin is dictatorship, thats what the Roman Catholic church has done over the ages, I think all sects work the same, they come up with ideology which cannot be questioned, and if questioned, people are encouraged to leave, if they dont repent.

As for me I cannot accept such a stand. And of course it dawns on me that people like ECR are only interested in having two kinds of visitor to this forum. ONe the hand indoctrinated people who possess a vast knowledge of SDA truth (especially EGW) and post it and on the other hand people who are seeking to get to know more of it. THe third kind, people who question it, are not welcome...

Be it as it may...

Not exactly sure if I'm following you here. To be honest, my post here has little to do with anyone I engage with in the Adventist forum. I don't think there is anything wrong with healthy discussion, but to debate is something entirely different. When you debate, you're trying to prove your side as being the correct one, while disproving your opponent. I don't think that many of the debates here are conducted in a way that honor and glorify God. Throwing scripture at each other like we're in a food fight does nothing but cause confusion and give way for the advesary to step in. That's not what I want.

And I've had my fill of doubts. I don't think I've ever doubted everything I've been taught the way I have since I started debating on this forum. I praise God that He was able to use my wife to bring my back from the abyss of depression and emptiness that was looming over me. Like I said before, when we debate, we're engaging with the Devil. Entertaining thoughts and doubts is not what we're called to do. Even scripture tells us to avoid such things, since they are useless.

 

[ricker]

I'm sorry, but how exclusive can you be when you hold to a mission that involves reaching the entire world? And what do you mean by actively avoiding being part of the greater Christian community?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't y'all call us nominal churches and harlots and Babylon and such things?

Don't you shrink in horror from anything that faintly resembles ecumenicalism? Don't you have your own boy and girl scout thing (pathfinders) so you don't have to associate with us? Do you accept baptism if done in another denomination? I could, of course, go on.....

 

[Pythons]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't y'all call us nominal churches and harlots and Babylon and such things?

Don't you shrink in horror from anything that faintly resembles ecumenicalism? Don't you have your own boy and girl scout thing (pathfinders) so you don't have to associate with us? Do you accept baptism if done in another denomination? I could, of course, go on.....

Ellen White
I saw the state of the different churches since the second angel proclaimed their fall (in 1844), they have been growing more and more corrupt. Satan has taken full possession of the churches as a body. Their professions, their prayers and their exhortations are an abomination in the sight of GOD." (Spiritual Gifts, Vol 1, p.189).

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't y'all call us nominal churches and harlots and Babylon and such things?

Don't you shrink in horror from anything that faintly resembles ecumenicalism? Don't you have your own boy and girl scout thing (pathfinders) so you don't have to associate with us? Do you accept baptism if done in another denomination? I could, of course, go on.....

Do you think this verse was put in the Bible for grins and giggles? We have become to socially/politically correct to call sin, sin and to indentify behaviour and actions that God finds abominable and detestable. Those that worship Him in all truth will be accepted, those that mix truth with error will be found lukewarm and spewed out of His mouth.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?


And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

[Stryder06]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't y'all call us nominal churches and harlots and Babylon and such things?

No. We call those who are not walking in the will of God such things. And those people exist in every church, even the Adventist church. The harlot of Babylon is spelled out in scripture. I can't help who that applies to.

Don't you shrink in horror from anything that faintly resembles ecumenicalism? Don't you have your own boy and girl scout thing (pathfinders) so you don't have to associate with us? Do you accept baptism if done in another denomination? I could, of course, go on.....

Shrink in horror? Not so much. I have no problem agreeing with you or anyone else on things that we have in common. What I will not do is ignore those things that are considered to be "non-salvific" by most. There's too much compromise among God's people, in the name of "unity".

 

[Stryder06]

Ellen White
I saw the state of the different churches since the second angel proclaimed their fall (in 1844), they have been growing more and more corrupt. Satan has taken full possession of the churches as a body. Their professions, their prayers and their exhortations are an abomination in the sight of GOD." (Spiritual Gifts, Vol 1, p.189).

Not exactly sure what point you're trying to make Pythons. Scripture makes it clear that the majority of the world will wonder after the beast. I find it interesting that you neglected to highlight the portion of this statement that qualified who she was talking about, i.e, the churches which had grown corrupt.

No prayer of a righteous man goes unheard before God, no matter what denomination they belong to. I'm telling you, you'd be better off trying to understand Sr White's writings the way they're meant to be understood, instead of trying to build a case against them.

 

[ricker]

Do you think this verse was put in the Bible for grins and giggles? We have become to socially/politically correct to call sin, sin and to indentify behaviour and actions that God finds abominable and detestable. Those that worship Him in all truth will be accepted, those that mix truth with error will be found lukewarm and spewed out of His mouth.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?


And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Whatever you use for justification, you do actively avoid being a part of the active Christian community then. That was my point.

 

[ricker]

No. We call those who are not walking in the will of God such things. And those people exist in every church, even the Adventist church. The harlot of Babylon is spelled out in scripture. I can't help who that applies to.



Shrink in horror? Not so much. I have no problem agreeing with you or anyone else on things that we have in common. What I will not do is ignore those things that are considered to be "non-salvific" by most. There's too much compromise among God's people, in the name of "unity".

Nice dodge. I know very well you folks call Christians that worship on Sunday harlots of Babylon.

So do you actively avoid being a part of the active Christian community? I say you do and gave examples

 

[Stryder06]

Nice dodge. I know very well you folks call Christians that worship on Sunday harlots of Babylon.

So do you actively avoid being a part of the active Christian community? I say you do and gave examples

It's no dodge. I'm sorry you feel like it comes off that way. It could be due to the urgency with which we try to spread our message that it comes off that way.

The truth is that scripture speaks of the harlot and her daughters. It's true that most churches avoid these issues, when they should be investigating (no pun intended ) them. Is it not stated in Revelation that Christ calls out to His people to come out of Babylon? If He calls them to come out, that means that they are in Babylon, but not of Babylon.

And I'm not even sure what you mean by avoid being part of the christian community. My Pastor has spoken at several sunday churches. Our childrens choir has sung at sunday churches, and our dance group has done the same. So yeah. I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. We're just as active in relief efforts, and believe our prayers join with the prayers of all the faithful, to seek the mercies of our God in a fallen world.

Just because we have Pathfinders, and don't do Boy's and Girls club, doesn't mean anything.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Not exactly sure if I'm following you here. To be honest, my post here has little to do with anyone I engage with in the Adventist forum. I don't think there is anything wrong with healthy discussion, but to debate is something entirely different. When you debate, you're trying to prove your side as being the correct one, while disproving your opponent. I don't think that many of the debates here are conducted in a way that honor and glorify God. Throwing scripture at each other like we're in a food fight does nothing but cause confusion and give way for the advesary to step in. That's not what I want.

And I've had my fill of doubts. I don't think I've ever doubted everything I've been taught the way I have since I started debating on this forum. I praise God that He was able to use my wife to bring my back from the abyss of depression and emptiness that was looming over me. Like I said before, when we debate, we're engaging with the Devil. Entertaining thoughts and doubts is not what we're called to do. Even scripture tells us to avoid such things, since they are useless.

What I was basically referring to is the fact that SDA communities (be it a local church or even this forum) dont allow space for different opinions (I am not talking about to meat or not to meat).

There is one big opinion, having its source in EGW writings, and thats basically it...

If somebody question something by bringing up new stuff or new interpretation, people are generally conservative.

ECR mentioned the fact that somebody might lose their faith because of some writings. IMHO faiith should be based on Jesus Christ, that is faith that brings salvation. SDA are rather up to hiding inconvenient news and info rather than to acknowledge that there might be something wrong...

So long...

 

[Pythons]

Not exactly sure what point you're trying to make Pythons. Scripture makes it clear that the majority of the world will wonder after the beast. I find it interesting that you neglected to highlight the portion of this statement that qualified who she was talking about, i.e, the churches which had grown corrupt.

No prayer of a righteous man goes unheard before God, no matter what denomination they belong to. I'm telling you, you'd be better off trying to understand Sr White's writings the way they're meant to be understood, instead of trying to build a case against them.

At that time-hack those comments Ellen made about the different churches...
...Included ALL churches which rejected the 7th month / midnight cry movement.
...Therefore any and all who had rejected Incarnation of Elijah's rubrics were under the control of Lucifer.

 

[Stryder06]

At that time-hack those comments Ellen made about the different churches...
...Included ALL churches which rejected the 7th month / midnight cry movement.
...Therefore any and all who had rejected Incarnation of Elijah's rubrics were under the control of Lucifer.

Like I said Python's, you'd be better served in seeing Ellen as an ally, not an enemy.

 

[Stryder06]

What I was basically referring to is the fact that SDA communities (be it a local church or even this forum) dont allow space for different opinions (I am not talking about to meat or not to meat).

There is one big opinion, having its source in EGW writings, and thats basically it...

If somebody question something by bringing up new stuff or new interpretation, people are generally conservative.

ECR mentioned the fact that somebody might lose their faith because of some writings. IMHO faiith should be based on Jesus Christ, that is faith that brings salvation. SDA are rather up to hiding inconvenient news and info rather than to acknowledge that there might be something wrong...

So long...

I don't think there's a problem with asking questions. I think you should. But the reasoning behind why you're asking the question will determine which way you go. Many people are looking for an out. Thus they find something to justify why they don't want to believe XYZ. This in turn can lead to the destroying of the faith of a weaker brother.

Do you think that it's wrong to have faith in a prophet? And I don't mean in a "unto salvation" type of way.

 

[ricker]

[=Stryder06;58939174]It's no dodge. I'm sorry you feel like it comes off that way. It could be due to the urgency with which we try to spread our message that it comes off that way.

The truth is that scripture speaks of the harlot and her daughters. It's true that most churches avoid these issues, when they should be investigating (no pun intended ) them. Is it not stated in Revelation that Christ calls out to His people to come out of Babylon? If He calls them to come out, that means that they are in Babylon, but not of Babylon.

Yes, but Babylon and her harlots are not necessarily the Baptist or Lutheran church, for example.

And I'm not even sure what you mean by avoid being part of the christian community. My Pastor has spoken at several sunday churches. Our childrens choir has sung at sunday churches, and our dance group has done the same. So yeah. I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. We're just as active in relief efforts, and believe our prayers join with the prayers of all the faithful, to seek the mercies of our God in a fallen world.

Just because we have Pathfinders, and don't do Boy's and Girls club, doesn't mean anything.

I stand corrected. It sounds like your church doesn't necessarily avoid other people from other churches. Just curious, do you allow pastors from other denominaions to speak from your pulpit?

On a somewhat unrelated subject, would a person who was raised Baptist have to get rebaptised to join the SDA church?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Yes, but Babylon and her harlots are not necessarily the Baptist or Lutheran church, for example.

Who or what do you perceive the harlot and her daughters to be?

 

[ricker]

Who or what do you perceive the harlot and her daughters to be?

Future events will tell. I don't believe God fearing, devout, faithfull Christians who happen to understand a couple things differently than you are included.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Future events will tell. I don't believe God fearing, devout, faithfull Christians who happen to understand a couple things differently than you are included.

Do you believe that a woman in prophesy represents a church?

 

[JohnMarsten]

I don't think there's a problem with asking questions. I think you should. But the reasoning behind why you're asking the question will determine which way you go. Many people are looking for an out. Thus they find something to justify why they don't want to believe XYZ. This in turn can lead to the destroying of the faith of a weaker brother.

Do you think that it's wrong to have faith in a prophet? And I don't mean in a "unto salvation" type of way.

Cant rightly say if its wrong to have faith in a prophet, I have faith in Jesus Christ!

THe thing is, there is a definite SDA framework laid out by EGW. Making it difficult to have a different opinion.

I dont know if its real faith if something is based on a prophet and stuff... faith you can have only in Jesus Christ Himself.

This is not so much about asking questions but rather discussing things that might be the other way round.

 

[chuck77]

Our time would probably be better spent studying together, and praying for others. That's just my $.02

When you debate with people you are contantly in the word, researching, reading, learning new things, etc etc etc.

Simply put, there are things I never would have learned without debating. It keeps us on our toes and it's a witnessing tool to use from all the things we learn about while doing it. It may seem like nothing is happening but it's nice to have answers for our faith when the skeptics ask.

Defend the truth and be ready to give an answer:


1 Peter 3:15

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 But sanctify the Lord God[a] in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

 

[Stryder06]

Yes, but Babylon and her harlots are not necessarily the Baptist or Lutheran church, for example.

If women are used in the bible to represent the children of God, who do you think the harlot and her children represent?

I stand corrected. It sounds like your church doesn't necessarily avoid other people from other churches. Just curious, do you allow pastors from other denominaions to speak from your pulpit?

As in preach sermons? That's never happened so long as I can remember. We have invited visiting pastors and elders to sit on the pulpit, and there was a time when one pastor gave words of encouragement to our congregation.

On a somewhat unrelated subject, would a person who was raised Baptist have to get rebaptised to join the SDA church?

Nope. Profession of faith is all that's required, unless that individual requests to be rebatized.