The purpose of debating

[Stryder06]

Cant rightly say if its wrong to have faith in a prophet, I have faith in Jesus Christ!

THe thing is, there is a definite SDA framework laid out by EGW. Making it difficult to have a different opinion.

I dont know if its real faith if something is based on a prophet and stuff... faith you can have only in Jesus Christ Himself.

This is not so much about asking questions but rather discussing things that might be the other way round.

I have faith in my Pastor. I have faith in my Wife. I have faith in my Parents. That's the type of faith I'm referring to when I ask if it's wrong to have faith in a prophet.

And what type of second opinion are you looking to have within the church? Certain things are non-negotiable, and I'm not sorry for that. Other things however should be understood in their proper context, and should not be taught as doctrine. If Sr White was a prophet (as I believe she was) then don't I have a responsibility to heed the words she spoke?

Was her message, for our time, any different than Elijah, for his time, or Isaiah, for his time? Nothing good ever comes from distrusting the word of a prophet sent by God.

 

[JohnMarsten]

I have faith in my Pastor. I have faith in my Wife. I have faith in my Parents. That's the type of faith I'm referring to when I ask if it's wrong to have faith in a prophet.

And what type of second opinion are you looking to have within the church? Certain things are non-negotiable, and I'm not sorry for that. Other things however should be understood in their proper context, and should not be taught as doctrine. If Sr White was a prophet (as I believe she was) then don't I have a responsibility to heed the words she spoke?

Was her message, for our time, any different than Elijah, for his time, or Isaiah, for his time? Nothing good ever comes from distrusting the word of a prophet sent by God.

So you rather referred to a socall trust/faith, now thats Ok....

If you believe she was a prophet then keep up with it. Mormons, too, believe they have a prophet and it apparently works...

As for me, I think there is too much problems with EGW as to regard her as a prophet. I know how the system works, once you believe in a religious framework you will consider everyone who is opposing/questioning it, a threat, and you will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to defend your./her position.

Let me give you a few examples:

First thing, test the prophet!

EGW prophecies failed, lets take the food for worm stuff. From the moment on that she uttered/wrote down the prophecy passed a lot of years,since that was (and I might be mistaken) in the 1850s/1860s she was alive for lets say 50 years, she never got back to that prophecy, claiming it was all conditional, conditions having not been met and stuff. Instead people expected that it was gonna happen.
After everybody died (indluding her) we are facing a problem. The prophecy as such did not come to pass and can never come to pass (with regard to the believers present (not the 2nd coming of course).
What do we do?
two ways out: 1. conditions were not met - problem, there were no conditions to be fulfilled - solution, the 2nd coming was the condition - backdoor - she later claimed that the 2nd coming had been put on hold, and again never coming back to that prophecy. 2. Jonah and Niniveh are classic examples...

As for me I dont believe in stuff like the 2nd coming delayed, I believe in a set time by the Most High God. If you were to put my trust in her, I would not only have to accept that, but also and this is what most people dont seem to realize, would need to accept the possibility of God changing His plans contrary to what He stated (apparently that is in regard to EGW) earlier. In essence: Any future predictions by EGW or other bible prophets may be not valid any longer, since the possibility exists that God changed His plans. I know this is some crazy stuff, and of course I dont believe that, but its possible if you follow EGW.

Another thing that bothers me:

EGW forbis alcohol and calls it grape juice.

It has been talked about numerous times, fact is that alcohol was used in the bible, Paul says its good not to drink it and I agree with that but I dont agree with a mandatory abstinence. Personally I might even be abstinent if in the right environment (lets stay an adventist marriage and stuff) but I couldnt honestly tell everyone that I dont drink because the bible tells me not to and if someone came up with water into wine I couldnt tell him that a bishop is not entitled to drink too much grape juice, I just cant make that stunt. Its just not biblical.

There is so much more, people dont realize most of the things (someone said they cant think, cant read, poor David Conklin ). It is because they are engaged in that framework lifestyle, they just accept what is going on, afraid to question it. And right, if questioning it would destroy anyones faith, then lets not question it. Did people lose their faith because Luther question the authority of the pope?

Of course you can have faith in a prophet but always do remember that if the blind lead the blind, will they not both fall into the pit? Jesus speaks about many false prophets and never about a genuine one... the book of revelation is for me the end of the prophets, Why would God need another prophet if everything has been outlined in detail in the bible. The times of the prophets have ended. Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit, who would guide us, He never promised us another prophet who as a prolific writer would write x-times more stuff than found in the whole bible.

In fact it can be pretty dangerous to follow a prophet as these can lead many astray...

Question: Some people might have faith in the mormon prophets, their lifes had been changed, they 'seem' to follow Jesus, isnt it wonderful, yet no true SDA would accept those prophets right? why is that?

 

[Stryder06]

So you rather referred to a socall trust/faith, now thats Ok....

If you believe she was a prophet then keep up with it. Mormons, too, believe they have a prophet and it apparently works...

As for me, I think there is too much problems with EGW as to regard her as a prophet...

Well I don't see any problems with what sr white said. The "false prophet" arguements have been debunked already so we need not get into that. From what I've expereinced, root issues with Ellen are covered up by the "false prophet" stance. People have a problem with something she said that disagrees with something in their life that they think they ought to be able to do, so they have to find something to justify her being a false prophet. Once that is done, than you can throw everything else out.

 

[Kira Light]

Well I don't see any problems with what sr white said. The "false prophet" arguements have been debunked already so we need not get into that. From what I've expereinced, root issues with Ellen are covered up by the "false prophet" stance. People have a problem with something she said that disagrees with something in their life that they think they ought to be able to do, so they have to find something to justify her being a false prophet. Once that is done, than you can throw everything else out.

I too would hate to see the false prophet argument rehashed here, but you can't just say its been "debunked" and try to move on. It most certainly has not. EGW wrote and said so many things that were just plain false, and pretty much all of it supposedly came from God Himself. That is not okay.

 

[Stryder06]

I too would hate to see the false prophet argument rehashed here, but you can't just say its been "debunked" and try to move on. It most certainly has not. EGW wrote and said so many things that were just plain false, and pretty much all of it supposedly came from God Himself. That is not okay.

I can move on because we have a thread that has already gone over those same issues, plus many an explanation can be found from the EGW estate. I'm not trying to skirt an issue, but I know that if one doesn't want to believe something, no amount of "proof" presented will change that. This is why I said it's been debunked.

If you have specifics, I will do my best to provide you with an explanation that I hope you would consider, but if you want to prove to me that she's a false prophet, then I have no interest.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Too All:​

This is a forum of various beliefs, which I feel was set up for a good purpose. I feel that is was set up for those who choose to learn or ask questions about another person's belief. However many come to argue, ridicule and even put down those they differ with. It is sad because truly we can learn from each other. I do agree that Adventist have the same tendencies that the Jews had in Yashua's day. However, all have some type of bigotry attitude when you claim to have the spirit of Yashua and act the same way. I Have been Adventist since the fifties and it is my goal to show those in my church as well as other what the Bible states with understanding through meekness.

But sanctify the Yahweh Elohim in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1Pe 3:15​

So I am here to answer many of the statements made with love and according to the Word of Elohim that all is suppose to adhere too!

Is it even possible to be "one family" with Adventists? The entire thing is based on exclusivity. In fact, they actively avoid being part of the greater Christian community because "narrow is the way".​

As a young girl, I was laugh at and made fun of because we did not eat unclean flesh and we kept all of the commandments that included the Sabbath. I learn also that what we taught about the remnant was wrong and apologize. SDA's have many problems as do all churches who do not follow the blue print of the Bible.​

Call us nominal churches and harlots and Babylon. Whatever you use for justification, you do actively avoid being a part of the active Christian community then. That was my point. I know very well you folks call Christians that worship on Sunday harlots of Babylon.​

Yes EGW did call the churches of her day nominal that relates to or consisting of a name or names. However, many churches during this time felt that their church was better than the other was so we must be fair and learn from the pass. I have never heard us call other churches harlots of Babylon and if SDA did, they are wrong! The Bible only call the woman riding on the beast the harlot and the kings or the earth are the ones she committed fornication with. Rev 17:1-7, 15-18 Many have blame the SDA Church for some of their belief which comes from one of the most well known and distinguish Baptist minister during the time of EGW, namely the late Rev. Alexander Hislop! His book he wrote is called the "Two Babylon" It is an excellent book except for one thing he was wrong about Cush. He was I feel maybe somewhat racist in his view about Ham and Cush. But I also know it was the thought of the day to put blacks down and against the Almighty and the whites as the only ones who were pure!​

Don't you have your own boy and girl scout thing (pathfinders) so you don't have to associate with us?

This is totally wrong and unfair. When I was a child I wanted to be a brownie but we could not participate because every event or outing was on Friday night and Sabbath day! So Adventist had to do the best next thing to aid their children and that was to form our own clubs. I became a "Master Guide," we did everything, and I loved it. My son also continued in my footsteps. Our Pioneers have been in major parades all over the world and I know it has help make me a better person. You know all churches have some type of organizations that is within the churches to aid their children what is wrong with that?​

Do you accept baptism if done in another denomination? I have been a Bible worker for numerous years and have seen some who join the SDA church by profession of faith.

Ellen made about the different churches......Included ALL churches which rejected the 7th month / midnight cry movement.

When we begin to point fingers on ones belief I suggest to all know what you believe and the history about it. Many point a finger at EGW who grew up in the Methodist Church. During EGW's time, many movements started in the 1800 called the "Great Awakening." Many are not aware but Margaret MacDonald born in 1815 in Scotland also, Isabella and Mary Campbell of the parish of Rosneath all were Catholic and actually started the Dispensationalist movement known today as the rapture. These women history notes were to have the very first manifested charismatic experiences such as speaking in tongues known today by fundamentalist Christians. Many want to put down EGW because of her visions that I stand firm were true. She stated that an angel spoke to her and she saw various Biblical events. Margaret also wrote down her visions but the difference was she never had a visitation of an angel and many of her events were not in harmony with Biblical records. There were many others who had vision during this time and some were similar to EGW and others were not. However, EGW herself never refer herself to being a prophetess she stated clearly that Yashua said she was to be a messenger. She had a third grade education and she did plagiarize, as did many others during this period. I have been in this church for over fifty years and I have seen many errors made by the Adventist leadership that has moved from I original standings. Many books that have the sayings of EGW have been put together for mainly sales. She changed many of thoughts later in life but not the main principles of the original Advent movement. What she saw in visions never changed but her opinion and better understanding of the gospel changed, as she grew older. She wrote one of the best books warning the ministers and gospel not to hold on to their old opinions or doctrines and traditions of the church. ​

On a somewhat unrelated subject, would a person who was raised Baptist have to get rebaptised to join the SDA church?

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Mat 28:19, 20​

Unless you truly follow, Yashua and the truth He taught that were His Father's commandments and not the law or Book of Moses. He obeyed the Laws of Moses because they dealt strictly to His death and His services in the Heavenly Sanctuary that only He could perform and not man! Take the Bible and understand it first before joining any church!​

Now I hope that I have justly answered certain misunderstandings about Adventist to both those who are not members and to those who are members. Here are some Scriptures why I feel we should not debate but give an answer and to stand firm to the truth of the Bible. When people make certain comments I feel there should be a response but alway with kindness and a humble spirit and not with malice or a condescending attitude. I do not feel that any church is better than any other church but what I stand firm on is this:

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1Th 5:21; 1Ki 10:1; 1Pe 3:15 ​

Blessings and have a happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri​

 

[ricker]

Too All:​

This is a forum of various beliefs, which I feel was set up for a good purpose. I feel that is was set up for those who choose to learn or ask questions about another person's belief. However many come to argue, ridicule and even put down those they differ with. It is sad because truly we can learn from each other. I do agree that Adventist have the same tendencies that the Jews had in Yashua's day. However, all have some type of bigotry attitude when you claim to have the spirit of Yashua and act the same way. I Have been Adventist since the fifties and it is my goal to show those in my church as well as other what the Bible states with understanding through meekness.

But sanctify the Yahweh Elohim in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1Pe 3:15​

So I am here to answer many of the statements made with love and according to the Word of Elohim that all is suppose to adhere too!

Is it even possible to be "one family" with Adventists? The entire thing is based on exclusivity. In fact, they actively avoid being part of the greater Christian community because "narrow is the way".​

As a young girl, I was laugh at and made fun of because we did not eat unclean flesh and we kept all of the commandments that included the Sabbath. I learn also that what we taught about the remnant was wrong and apologize. SDA's have many problems as do all churches who do not follow the blue print of the Bible.​

Call us nominal churches and harlots and Babylon. Whatever you use for justification, you do actively avoid being a part of the active Christian community then. That was my point. I know very well you folks call Christians that worship on Sunday harlots of Babylon.​

Yes EGW did call the churches of her day nominal that relates to or consisting of a name or names. However, many churches during this time felt that their church was better than the other was so we must be fair and learn from the pass. I have never heard us call other churches harlots of Babylon and if SDA did, they are wrong! The Bible only call the woman riding on the beast the harlot and the kings or the earth are the ones she committed fornication with. Rev 17:1-7, 15-18 Many have blame the SDA Church for some of their belief which comes from one of the most well known and distinguish Baptist minister during the time of EGW, namely the late Rev. Alexander Hislop! His book he wrote is called the "Two Babylon" It is an excellent book except for one thing he was wrong about Cush. He was I feel maybe somewhat racist in his view about Ham and Cush. But I also know it was the thought of the day to put blacks down and against the Almighty and the whites as the only ones who were pure!​

Don't you have your own boy and girl scout thing (pathfinders) so you don't have to associate with us?

This is totally wrong and unfair. When I was a child I wanted to be a brownie but we could not participate because every event or outing was on Friday night and Sabbath day! So Adventist had to do the best next thing to aid their children and that was to form our own clubs. I became a "Master Guide," we did everything, and I loved it. My son also continued in my footsteps. Our Pioneers have been in major parades all over the world and I know it has help make me a better person. You know all churches have some type of organizations that is within the churches to aid their children what is wrong with that?​

Do you accept baptism if done in another denomination? I have been a Bible worker for numerous years and have seen some who join the SDA church by profession of faith.

Ellen made about the different churches......Included ALL churches which rejected the 7th month / midnight cry movement.

When we begin to point fingers on ones belief I suggest to all know what you believe and the history about it. Many point a finger at EGW who grew up in the Methodist Church. During EGW's time, many movements started in the 1800 called the "Great Awakening." Many are not aware but Margaret MacDonald born in 1815 in Scotland also, Isabella and Mary Campbell of the parish of Rosneath all were Catholic and actually started the Dispensationalist movement known today as the rapture. These women history notes were to have the very first manifested charismatic experiences such as speaking in tongues known today by fundamentalist Christians. Many want to put down EGW because of her visions that I stand firm were true. She stated that an angel spoke to her and she saw various Biblical events. Margaret also wrote down her visions but the difference was she never had a visitation of an angel and many of her events were not in harmony with Biblical records. There were many others who had vision during this time and some were similar to EGW and others were not. However, EGW herself never refer herself to being a prophetess she stated clearly that Yashua said she was to be a messenger. She had a third grade education and she did plagiarize, as did many others during this period. I have been in this church for over fifty years and I have seen many errors made by the Adventist leadership that has moved from I original standings. Many books that have the sayings of EGW have been put together for mainly sales. She changed many of thoughts later in life but not the main principles of the original Advent movement. What she saw in visions never changed but her opinion and better understanding of the gospel changed, as she grew older. She wrote one of the best books warning the ministers and gospel not to hold on to their old opinions or doctrines and traditions of the church. ​

On a somewhat unrelated subject, would a person who was raised Baptist have to get rebaptised to join the SDA church?

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Mat 28:19, 20​

Unless you truly follow, Yashua and the truth He taught that were His Father's commandments and not the law or Book of Moses. He obeyed the Laws of Moses because they dealt strictly to His death and His services in the Heavenly Sanctuary that only He could perform and not man! Take the Bible and understand it first before joining any church!​

Now I hope that I have justly answered certain misunderstandings about Adventist to both those who are not members and to those who are members. Here are some Scriptures why I feel we should not debate but give an answer and to stand firm to the truth of the Bible. When people make certain comments I feel there should be a response but alway with kindness and a humble spirit and not with malice or a condescending attitude. I do not feel that any church is better than any other church but what I stand firm on is this:

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1Th 5:21; 1Ki 10:1; 1Pe 3:15 ​

Blessings and have a happy Sabbath,

stinsonmarri​

Thank you for your comprehensive answer. It seems that Adventism is more open minded about some things than I had thought. We all hold dear to what we believe, and yet should not feel like we know it all and judge others. You come across this way. God bless.

 

[ChrisCarol]

Deleted.