The Prosperity Doctrine

interesting how the great commission of making disciples of men, became a get rich scheme, selling the gospel for a price?

dkbwarrior said:

wonder why men of god walking on money while sactifiying it with a prayer of annointing and blessing for those that gave it would offend anyone?

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Actually it looks like they are holding a money worship service. You know, the 'love of money' thing?

Is money so precious to you that you don't want people walking on it?

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No.

dollarsbill said:

Actually it looks like they are holding a money worship service. You know, the 'love of money' thing?

No.

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I guess it is in the eye of the beholder then. I don't see anyone worshipping money in that clip. I see them walking on the money and calling on the annointing of God to sanctify it. You might call that worship, but if so, is that how you worship God? By walking on Him and asking the Spirit to sanctify Him with the annointing?

Peace...

dollarsbill said:

Actually it looks like they are holding a money worship service. You know, the 'love of money' thing?

No.

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I agree with this. It would have been better for them to chant "Lord come to me" rather than "money come to me" in a place/time of worship. Just my personal opinion. I do think these ministers believe in God and for sure the people are there to serve God. It's just money is not what Jesus instructed us to be rich in. More like be rich in mercy, love, and commitment to God and his son's ministry. We all know Jesus warnings about money and such. I think we pray for what we need and not just money money money.

dollarsbill said:

Oh my! I can't believe what I just watched. Is this WOF?

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Well I suppose that these two con artists have been trampling on the Word of God for years so to see then trampling over money should be seen as being a lesser crime. [They were dollar notes and not pages of the Bible?]

Even though we can rightfully criticise these two shameful actors we should remember that they are only there due to the gullibility, greed and selfishness of the hangers-on who sit in the pews.

When these celebrity Woffers meet together they must roll on the ground laughing with how they can so easily con so many – of course human greed and selfishness is not only found in the world but also inside of church buildings.

People bash WOF in ngeneral. Prosperuty is about God supoplying all your need, not doctors, not government, not anyone other than God. Is it biblical? Of course just as sowing and reaping is as well. While I agree that there is to much emphasis on this by some and has been twisted by some as well it doesnt change the fact that Jesus made Himself poor that we may be rich, that is spiritually as well as financially as well.

Biblicist said:

Well I suppose that these two con artists have been trampling on the Word of God for years so to see then trampling over money should be seen as being a lesser crime. [They were dollar notes and not pages of the Bible?]

Even though we can rightfully criticise these two shameful actors we should remember that they are only there due to the gullibility, greed and selfishness of the hangers-on who sit in the pews.

When these celebrity Woffers meet together they must roll on the ground laughing with how they can so easily con so many – of course human greed and selfishness is not only found in the world but also inside of church buildings.

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That is why they are preaching the gospel around the world and you are sitting in your chair at home criticizing them.

By their fruits ye shall know them.

Peace...

posted by Psalms91: Is it biblical? Of course just as sowing and reaping is as well. While I agree that there is to much emphasis on this by some and has been twisted by some...

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With your use of twisted you are spot on but with some I think that it would be better restated as most when it comes to the celebrity WoF promoters.

I trust that you are not offended when the Body of Christ critices the vile practices that are all too often encountered within the WoF movement - or are you simply sensitive to any criticism of this movement?

dkbwarrior said:

I guess it is in the eye of the beholder then. I don't see anyone worshipping money in that clip. I see them walking on the money and calling on the annointing of God to sanctify it. You might call that worship, but if so, is that how you worship God? By walking on Him and asking the Spirit to sanctify Him with the annointing?

Peace...

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As a matter of fact, if you think that is worshipping, then I don't think that you and I could worship together.

Peace...

Biblicist said:

Is it biblical? Of course just as sowing and reaping is as well. While I agree that there is to much emphasis on this by some and has been twisted by some...

With your use of twisted you are spot on but with some I think that it would be better restated as most when it comes to the celebrity WoF promoters.

I trust that you are not offended when the Body of Christ critices the vile practices that are all too often encountered within the WoF movement - or are you simply sensitive to any criticism of this movement?

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What is vile is that people are not afriad to speak evil of things they know nothing about.

10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time.
-2 Peter 2:10-13

It is not wise to speak evil of those whom God is using.

Peace...

Exactly! People just look for what they can critisize without ever looking to see what God says about things. It is a shame that those with a plank strive to remove the splinter. By their fruits indeed we shall know them. Only spiritual can interpret or understand spiritual things which is why scripture has so many layers to it. Those that operate in the natural will never grasp the spiritual or walk in the blessings of God as they will never grasp the concepts or stand on faith when everything looks bleak.

rturner76 said:

I agree with this. It would have been better for them to chant "Lord come to me" rather than "money come to me" in a place/time of worship. Just my personal opinion. I do think these ministers believe in God and for sure the people are there to serve God. It's just money is not what Jesus instructed us to be rich in. More like be rich in mercy, love, and commitment to God and his son's ministry. We all know Jesus warnings about money and such. I think we pray for what we need and not just money money money.

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Why do people get so distraught when it is money that we are talking about? I think the ones that have the issue are the ones that can't handle moeny being talked about.

After all, charismatics have no problem glorifying God when healing is manifested, nor do they have any problem asking for healing, or even centering a whole service, or multiple services around healing. But center it around money, and religious folk get uncomfortable. They accuse the men of God as well as the poeple of worshipping money, when even a cursory listening to their other materials will tell them this is far from the truth.

So why does it bother them so much? Likely they already have a wrong relationship with money, and don't realize that it is simply a tool that God can use to His glory, like any other. They project their own lusts regarding money onto everyone else. They cannot conceive of a person desiring money to further the kindom of God and witness to His glory, because that is not what they would do with it. And in this they may be wise, because money will ruin the fool. Where they miss it is that not everyone in the kingdom of God is a fool.

Peace...

dkbwarrior said:

So why does it bother them so much? Likely they already have a wrong relationship with money, and don't realize that it is simply a tool that God can use to His glory, like any other. They project their own lusts regarding money onto everyone else. They cannot conceive of a person desiring money to further the kindom of God and witness to His glory, because that is not what they would do with it. And in this they may be wise, because money will ruin the fool. Where they miss it is that not everyone in the kingdom of God is a fool.
Peace...

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I don't know if the intention of this post was to label me a fool but I will be the first to admit I have been a fool and a sinner when it comes to getting and spending and managing money. I have sold, brokered, stolen, borrowed, begged, and everything else for money. That is why I know first hand of the lust for money Christ talks about when he speaks about the rich man in all 3 gospels. There's an old saying, Behind every fortune there's a crime. It's not the money I have a "problem" with. It is the lust for money. This is a lesson that I have humbled myself to believe with all my heart. GOD PROVIDES. Of that I have no doubt. On that you can count and I don't down anyone for depending on that. When preachers encourage people to pray TO BE RICH or HAVE MONEY IN EXCESS. From the study I have done. That is NOT what Jesus taught. In fact, he is so against that notion, he says it twice in Matthew:

Matthew 19:23 KJV
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:24 KJV
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

I believe he said this twice because he wanted there to be no mistake about it. Does that mean you are to work for free? No, there is nothing wrong with being successful in your profession or make good business decisions. Bring honor to God in everything you do. Ask for money? no. Ask for knowledge of God's will and the power to carry out that will. I stand firm on the principle that a preacher should be concerned for the spiritual welfare of his followers and not so concerned with things like people getting rich. Jesus is very very clear about warning us against desiring the riches of this world. If that makes me a fool, I guess I'll be a fool until somebody can really show me it is the will of Christ that we be financially wealthy.

You can give a blessing with your money but how much more of a blessing is it to you if you give your personal time and effort and still give the little bit you can? I believe Jesus wants us our time our effort, not our money after we make it big. I'm sorry I can't agree with Creflo and them on that one. Creflo "Dollar" COming to a conference near you....How much is a ticket for that? Can I use Visa? No problem! Can I bring the wife? Of course, we got a couples discount, and don't forget the cd, dvd, cd and dvd-rom, both of our books, and we'll throw in a book mark for free! Munny come to me! Amen

dkbwarrior said:

What is vile is that people are not afriad to speak evil of things they know nothing about.

10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time.
-2 Peter 2:10-13

It is not wise to speak evil of those whom God is using.

Peace...

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Hey Dkb,

I think you've taken that text a little out of context.

In this passage - ironically - Peter was in the middle of speaking against false teachers, and false prophets in the church; men who were exploiting the church out of greed.

The speaking evil Peter was condemning was the evil of blasphemy. If you are suggesting it's blasphemy to speak out against false teachers, then that would mean Peter was condemning himself.

Here's the passage with more context:


1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)
9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12 But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed--an accursed brood!

2 Peter 2:1-14 NIV


peace,
Simon

It's not wise to speak evil of those God is using. I like those words DK used. The words I would use is don't throw stones from a glass house.

Simon Peter said:

Hey Dkb,

I think you've taken that text a little out of context.

In this passage - ironically - Peter was in the middle of speaking against false teachers, and false prophets in the church; men who were exploiting the church out of greed.

The speaking evil Peter was condemning was the evil of blasphemy. If you are suggesting it's blasphemy to speak out against false teachers, then that would mean Peter was condemning himself.

Here's the passage with more context:


1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)
9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12 But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed--an accursed brood!

2 Peter 2:1-14 NIV


peace,
Simon

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No, I didn't take it out of context at all. The writer is listing different manifestations and signs of false teachers. One of those manifestations and signs is that they easily depise those that have positions of authority in the church, and are not afraid to speak evil of them.

This does not at all apply to the men that are being spoken of in this thread; in fact, just the opposite, I have never heard any of them ever talk of another minister in a bad way, but IT MOST CERTAINLY APPLIES TO MANY OF THOSE POSTING IN THIS THREAD. You don't need to have a worldwide ministry to be a false teacher.

Peace...

rturner76 said:

I don't know if the intention of this post was to label me a fool but I will be the first to admit I have been a fool and a sinner when it comes to getting and spending and managing money. I have sold, brokered, stolen, borrowed, begged, and everything else for money. That is why I know first hand of the lust for money Christ talks about when he speaks about the rich man in all 3 gospels. There's an old saying, Behind every fortune there's a crime. It's not the money I have a "problem" with. It is the lust for money. This is a lesson that I have humbled myself to believe with all my heart. GOD PROVIDES. Of that I have no doubt. On that you can count and I don't down anyone for depending on that. When preachers encourage people to pray TO BE RICH or HAVE MONEY IN EXCESS. From the study I have done. That is NOT what Jesus taught. In fact, he is so against that notion, he says it twice in Matthew:

Matthew 19:23 KJV
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:24 KJV
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

I believe he said this twice because he wanted there to be no mistake about it. Does that mean you are to work for free? No, there is nothing wrong with being successful in your profession or make good business decisions. Bring honor to God in everything you do. Ask for money? no. Ask for knowledge of God's will and the power to carry out that will. I stand firm on the principle that a preacher should be concerned for the spiritual welfare of his followers and not so concerned with things like people getting rich. Jesus is very very clear about warning us against desiring the riches of this world. If that makes me a fool, I guess I'll be a fool until somebody can really show me it is the will of Christ that we be financially wealthy.

You can give a blessing with your money but how much more of a blessing is it to you if you give your personal time and effort and still give the little bit you can? I believe Jesus wants us our time our effort, not our money after we make it big. I'm sorry I can't agree with Creflo and them on that one. Creflo "Dollar" COming to a conference near you....How much is a ticket for that? Can I use Visa? No problem! Can I bring the wife? Of course, we got a couples discount, and don't forget the cd, dvd, cd and dvd-rom, both of our books, and we'll throw in a book mark for free! Munny come to me! Amen

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No, I wasn't calling you a fool. I respected the fact that you said:

I do think these ministers believe in God and for sure the people are there to serve God.

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I simply disagree with you that wealth is not one of the blessings of the covenant. The Bible is pretty clear:

9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
-2 Corinthians 8:9

This verse is not talking about spiritual riches. It is smack in the middle of two chapters that are entirely about money, taking up a collection for the poor saints in Jerusalem, and he is talking of sowing and reaping, giving and receiving. This is talking about money.

18But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
-Deueteronomy 8:18

There are scores more verses that promise wealth in the Bible. Do you want me to list about 20 or so for you?

The problem that you seem to be having is in understanding that the promises of God regarding wealth are not for the rich, but for the poor.

9Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
-James 1:9-10

In the scripture that you keep quoting of Jesus, he was talking to the rich, not to the poor.

For the rich, they need to be willing to part with their riches. If they can't give what they have away, then they are in trouble.

For the poor however, they need to rejoice in the promises of wealth, and believe God for their needs to be met. If and when God raises them from their state, they need to be willing to give it away.

What I see from the critics, most often, is the rich saying that it is wrong for the poor to believe for wealth. It is almost as if they don't want others to be in the position that they are in. (Not saying this is the case with you, but it is often the case). Often, the people who are against the "prosperity" message have good jobs, retirement packages and health care. They may have a few hundred thousand in their retirment accounts, and don't think they NEED to believe God for their needs to be met. They then criticize those that don't have the good job, or the retirement account, for believing God for wealth, and quote Jesus when He said how hard it is for a rich man to enter into heaven.

But who is the rich man that Jesus is talking to? Certainly, it is NOT the poor man who is believing God for prosperity. No, the person that Jesus IS talking to is the comfortable one that doesn't bother to believe God, because he thinks that he has already MET HIS OWN needs, and doesn't need Gods help. This means that in essence, these critics are taking what Jesus said, and twisting it to mean just the opposite. If they were to be true to what Jesus said, they would empty their retirement account and give it to the poor, because that is what Jesus told the rich man to do in the full context of that scripture that you keep bringing up. However, I have yet to see one critic of the prosperity message do this, I wonder why?

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
-Matthew 19:16-24

Now, I am not advocating that everyone should give away their retirement account. However, what I am saying is that if you are comfortable and taken care of with a retirement account in the western world, YOU ARE insanely rich compared to the rest of the world. YOU ARE the person Jesus was talking to, and YOU ARE the one who will hardly enter the kingdom of God. He was NOT talking to those that are poor, believing God to have the wealth that you already have. If you are going to talk the talk, then walk the walk. Until you (not 'you' specifically, but 'you' meaning the critics in general) give away your wealth, your talk has no credibility with me.

Now, that is not to say that I don't believe that there have been some excesses in the prosperity movement. Namely, I think we need to be aware of keeping the second part of James instruction. For those that have become rich in this world, they can stop confessing that they are rich, and thank God and confess that they are brought low by the cross, on the same level as everyone else, for God is no respecter of persons.

I am not talking about the men mentioned in this thread by name, because we simply don't know the personal lives of these men, nor how much humility or lack thereof that they display in their personal lives. That is really not for us to judge any ways, without any information to draw from. Who are you that judgeth another, to their own master they stand or fall, said the apostle Paul, so that is between them and God. But in general terms, when one receives the promise, they can stop believing for it, and start believing God to keep them tender and humble before Him. I for one, believe that as long as one is sticking to the Word of promise, and rightly dividing it, pride wont be a problem in their personal lives.

Peace...

dkbwarrior said:

That is why they are preaching the gospel around the world and you are sitting in your chair at home criticizing them.

By their fruits ye shall know them.

Peace...

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I agree with you wholeheartedly in that I have no doubt that I would never be able to do what they can do - praise God for that!

Wealth can indeed be a blessing from God. I still think what was going on in the video is a disgrace unto God.

As far as I am concerned...

- If you don't believe in divine healing.... Stay sick!
- If you don't believe in prosperity... Stay poor!
- If you don't believe in word of faith... Stay in your unbelief!
- If you don't believe in speaking in tongues - Pray in your own prayer language!


But to those who us whom God has prospered also comes a responsibility...

Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; - 1 Timothy 6:17

And if we get carried away in the flesh it may become difficult for us to keep up the true fires of God... As Jesus said...

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. - Matthew 19:24

I have laid out a seven step plan for receiving the baptism in the Holy ghost in the metaphor of the Hebrew Temple...

1. The outer gates - Justification by faith
2. The Alter - Jesus Christ is our sacrifice
3. The Laver - Conforming to a righteous believers standard
--- Inner Temple - Inward Sanctification
4. The Table of Shewbread - The Word of God
5. The Candlestick - The proper spiritual light and energy
6. The Alter of Golden Incense - Prayer and praise
--- The veil - The eye of the needle
7. The Holy of Holies - The Baptism in the Holy Ghost
Holy Ghost Baptism (w/ Darlene Zschech): Seymour-Azusa Street - YouTube