The Proper use of Reason in Christianity

[dms1972]

I Facebook blogged this today, and decided to do a thread on it.


I found a nice little article that talks a bit about the proper use reason in the Christian Faith. Originally I was on the web looking at articles that pertain to atheists because, I sometimes talk a lot to atheists which can be frustrating. This topic however is an important topic because I've often seen reason downplayed or portrayed as being downright unspiritual by some Christians of various traditions."



"The biblical understanding of reason and the use of the mind in pursuing rational lines of arguments is quite different from that of the rationalist. “The Christian is not hostile to reason as reason, but to Reason as god. The Christian does not believe in reason [as an ultimate authority]; he believes in God and he uses reason under God.”[7] We were created to use our minds. “Do not be as the horse or as the mule which have no understanding” (Prov. 32:9a). The Christian who does not think in terms of God’s Word is described as “senseless and ignorant,” like the “beast” (Ps. 73:22). They act “like unreasoning animals” (2 Pet. 2:12). Reasoning is required of the Christian and non-Christian, but on God’s terms. In this way, “reason can be thought of as a tool — man’s intellectual or mental capacity. Taken in this sense, reason is a gift of God to man, indeed part of the divine image. When God bids His people ‘Come let us reason together’ (Isa. 1:18), we see that, like God, we are capable of rational thought and communication. God has given us our mental abilities to serve and glorify Him. It is part of the greatest commandment of the law that we should”[8] love God with our mind (Matt. 22:37). In general, the church agreed. Take, for example, Tertullian (c. 155–230): “Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason—nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason.”[9]

The Soulless Atheist • by Gary DeMar • The American Vision

This is a great topic to start a thread on, and of considerable importance today.
It is one I have given a good deal of thought to particularly earlier in my life, as I seem to from a young age have had an interest in philosophy and intellectual studies. I really wish I was more adept at putting together what I have learned and read in more coherent manner. For a good while I leaned towards existentialism mainly in its christian form as I found it in a couple of books by Kierrkegarrd.

I think now that I know more about Kierrkegarrd the man (I found both Karl Stern's and William Barrett's writings about him very helpful) and have read more widely I would question some the thought expressed in his books, yet I do believe he was a christian, though one with peculiar struggles.

I think today we are plagued by a departure from reason, the loss of the ability to think well. This doesn't affect everyone of course, and not to the same degree. How and why this has come about is complicated and a few writers have attempted to chart that departure, for instance Francis Schaeffer in a short book called Escape from Reason, drew a rather sweeping picture of thought from Byzantian times up to the 1980s. Another trenchant analysis was Harry Blamires: The Christian Mind. Both books still very worth reading.

The gift or instrument of Reason (which could be loosely described as the ability to make sense of things) is I think of great importance. We do need to develop the ability to think well in Christ and under God.

 

[dms1972]

GK Chesterton, a person of great intellectual stature once gave this advice to young friend [he wrote it on the flyleaf of a book he gave them]

Stand up and keep your childishness:
Read all the pedants’ screeds and strictures;
But don’t believe in anything
That can’t be told in coloured pictures.

I sometimes quip, half deprecatory, if offered a book to read, does it have any pictures?

What do you think of Chesterton's advice?

 

[Jamsie]

GK Chesterton, a person of great intellectual stature once gave this advice to young child:

And don't believe in anything
That cannot be told in coloured pictures

I sometimes quip, half deprecatory, if offered a book to read, does it have any pictures?

What do you think of Chesterton's advice?

I believe Chesterton was brilliant and rightly called the "Apostle of Common Sense". (though reason and logic often extend beyond common sense in areas) I recall a dear friend, quite a student of the Bible, said that often scripture should be seen as painting a picture.

Considering all of the apologetics past and present it is worth considering that the Christian worldview is a rational faith... though I suppose, as noted with Pascal, is such an engagement pre or post.

*"Orthodoxy" can simply be read for his marvelous wit... and certainly with "sufficient delicacy"!

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I think today we are plagued by a departure from reason, the loss of the ability to think well.

Yes this first became an issue for me decades ago while I was in the Charismatic movement. I actually tried to do a thread on it a year or so ago, but found opposition that sort of personified the problems I earlier encountered in the 90s.

Anti-intellectualism and hostility to Theology

I think now that I know more about Kierrkegarrd the man (I found both Karl Stern's and William Barrett's writings about him very helpful) and have read more widely I would question some the thought expressed in his books, yet I do believe he was a christian, though one with peculiar struggles.

Someday I should read Kerrekegarrd. He tends to get quoted and referenced in various things I read from time to time.

Escape from Reason, drew a rather sweeping picture of thought from Byzantian times up to the 1980s.

I've read a Catholic writer that has noted something like that. He noticed that the Eastern Orthodox haven't had any intellectual saints since the Great Schism. Some of their popular theology can seem a bit luddite with polemics against reason etc. coming as a reaction against Catholic Scholasticism. But I've heard much worse things coming from Luther, for the same sort of reason.


Take Care.

 

[dms1972]

I once read what I thought was a helpful distinction between rational and reasonable at least as it comes to the ministry of healing. Leanne Payne wrote :

"The church that omits prayer for healing of the sick in mind and in body is a church that has either become wholly rational or is in danger of becoming so. This state contrast with being reasonable, for the good of reason is preserved in the church only when the windows of our minds and hearts are fully open to God's immediate Healing Presence and Word. When a church is content to remain merely "rational," it inevitably proceeds towards unbelief and apostasy and ironically is eventually given over to the dark supernatural. Pagan superstitions and even the outright occult infiltrate, for they take root in and arise out of the darkness of unbelief." (Restoring the Christian Soul)

 

[Pavel Mosko]

James 3
13Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Years back (1994-1995) I had some conflicts with this one Foursquare pastor. He really didn't seem to like the intellectual tendencies of a friend and myself. And he really tried to put us on defensive when we talked to him. (For a time we considered him a friend which was a definite mistake). But he was very quick, to try to label anything any kind of use of reason, analytics etc. as not being spiritual, fleshly etc.


Anyway a few months after, I stopped associating with that guy, I started to study the Lexical meaning of the various Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic words that dealt with subjects like wisdom, spiritual discernment etc. a number of them actually have analytical connotations! But that really went against the "Two Trees in the Garden" theology of Rick Joyner and other popular Charismatic speakers at the time that was accepted at face value and preached etc.

 

[dms1972]

As far as secularism is concerned, reason and science are often made the sole source of knowledge in the world. The Enlightenment enthroned a form of reasoning, but rejected Agape Love.

I think what matters for the christian is having a sanctified intellect and imagination, and these working together in ones soul, in Christ and under God.

I actually think my imaginative capacity is underdeveloped compared to my intellect, the true imagination that is.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Reason the the method used to draw conclusions from premises. Any use of reason must start with a premise based on something other than reason.

 

[QvQ]

Reason the the method used to draw conclusions from premises. Any use of reason must start with a premise based on something other than reason.

I was thinking about "premises" as "theories." Raw data is inserted into a framework, often shoehorned to make it fit and this is called "reason." I had a friend who Always Knew, Because Because Because. It is raining? Oh, that is global warming. It is dry? That is global warming. Stating reasons to jackhammer raw data into tales of Why. "Oh I know why! Because....
Is this Pride? Knowing, having it all tucked neatly into the preconstructed forms and allowed to harden into unquestioned mental cement. I think it is Pride. I know, I know, I know it all, because the teacher told me so.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I was thinking about "premises" as "theories." Raw data is inserted into a framework, often shoehorned to make it fit and this is called "reason." I had a friend who Always Knew, Because Because Because. It is raining? Oh, that is global warming. It is dry? That is global warming. Stating reasons to jackhammer raw data into tales of Why. "Oh I know why! Because....
Is this Pride? Knowing, having it all tucked neatly into the preconstructed forms and allowed to harden into unquestioned mental cement. I think it is Pride. I know, I know, I know it all, because the teacher told me so.

How about arrogance?

 

[QvQ]

How about arrogance?

I noted when discussing "evolution" or "global warming" or other soft science constructs, raw data and the reasons for stuffing same into the framework are admitted to the discussion but the Premise (theory) was absolute "fact" not subject to any heretical questions or reasoned argument.
It is science and We Know Everything, can Explain Everything, can plug all raw data into the premises (theories)
Yes, it is arrogance but the most enlightening and frightening words in the language are "I don't know."
So I started to think about original sin, Pride and humility. Those are profound so I am still mulling the subject but reason, as in "having a reason" is not the same as Reason.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes... when we say we do not know, we leave room for a wisdom beyond ourselves.

The original sin was to know...

So many brothers and sisters are still caught in this fundamental sin running hither and thither for more knowledge. Learning more and more about the roadmap but not stepping out on the road.

What they should be taught is to hand the questions upstairs and leave them there, being content to only receive understanding that aligns with His purpose.

This is intellectual humility. Sadly it is unusual to find strong intellect and strong faith.

 

[QvQ]

Yes... when we say we do not know, we leave room for a wisdom beyond ourselves.

The original sin was to know...

So many brothers and sisters are still caught in this fundamental sin running hither and thither for more knowledge. Learning more and more about the roadmap but not stepping out on the road.

What they should be taught is to hand the questions upstairs and leave them there, being content to only receive understanding that aligns with His purpose.

This is intellectual humility. Sadly it is unusual to find strong intellect and strong faith.

All true knowledge and understanding comes from an honest question and an open mind. God does answer all inquiries. The original sin is Pride. Pride in knowing. Grandmother used to say, "everyone goes to hell in their own hand basket. By that she meant that sin is the road of the proud soul who is convinced of the absolute rightness and infallibility of his own learning and judgement. Having a reason is not the same as Reason.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Years back (1994-1995) I had some conflicts with this one Foursquare pastor. He really didn't seem to like the intellectual tendencies of a friend and myself. And he really tried to put us on defensive when we talked to him. (For a time we considered him a friend which was a definite mistake). But he was very quick, to try to label anything any kind of use of reason, analytics etc. as not being spiritual, fleshly etc.


Anyway a few months after, I stopped associating with that guy, I started to study the Lexical meaning of the various Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic words that dealt with subjects like wisdom, spiritual discernment etc. a number of them actually have analytical connotations! But that really went against the "Two Trees in the Garden" theology of Rick Joyner and other popular Charismatic speakers at the time that was accepted at face value and preached etc.

check out this book,
Out of Context: How to Avoid Misinterpreting the Bible
Book by Richard L. Schultz

 

[Daniel Marsh]

How about arrogance?

One can walk in the Holy Spirit, Be filled by the Spirit and still use their minds at the same time.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Yes... when we say we do not know, we leave room for a wisdom beyond ourselves.

The original sin was to know...

So many brothers and sisters are still caught in this fundamental sin running hither and thither for more knowledge. Learning more and more about the roadmap but not stepping out on the road.

What they should be taught is to hand the questions upstairs and leave them there, being content to only receive understanding that aligns with His purpose.

This is intellectual humility. Sadly it is unusual to find strong intellect and strong faith.

When did knowing what to call the animals come in? Adam was using his mind.

 

[Carl Emerson]

When did knowing what to call the animals come in? Adam was using his mind.

I am not sure where you got the impression that I do not advocate using the mind...

 

[QvQ]

I am wondering about Adam. I assumed that Adam was without sin. He was a gullible innocent. He was seduced by Satan through Eve. Satan said "You will know good and evil. You will be as god." Satan's sin was Pride, in the sense of "haughty spirit challenging God."
If the original sin of Adam was Pride then Adam had a Haughty Spirit before the Fall, desiring the knowledge and the power of God. Adam therefore sinned in his heart and mind before he committed the action. I doubt God would have punished a rube who was fooled but He did punish the rebellious and the haughty (the Proud) as Satan can testify.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I am not sure where you got the impression that I do not advocate using the mind...

My Apologies, just tired.

 

[QvQ]

I am not sure where you got the impression that I do not advocate using the mind...

I do believe you are searching for words other then pride. Pride is celebration of excellence in modern language. I do believe that "knowing it all" is pride in the old fashioned sense although haughty or arrogant work fine. However, I used to say, if I had any humility I would be proud of it. I have considered pride more closely than some.