The Proper use of Reason in Christianity

Pavel Mosko

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic
Supporter
Oct 4, 2016
7,236
7,312
56
Boyertown, PA.
✟768,575.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I Facebook blogged this today, and decided to do a thread on it.


I found a nice little article that talks a bit about the proper use reason in the Christian Faith. Originally I was on the web looking at articles that pertain to atheists because, I sometimes talk a lot to atheists which can be frustrating. This topic however is an important topic because I've often seen reason downplayed or portrayed as being downright unspiritual by some Christians of various traditions."



"The biblical understanding of reason and the use of the mind in pursuing rational lines of arguments is quite different from that of the rationalist. “The Christian is not hostile to reason as reason, but to Reason as god. The Christian does not believe in reason [as an ultimate authority]; he believes in God and he uses reason under God.”[7] We were created to use our minds. “Do not be as the horse or as the mule which have no understanding” (Prov. 32:9a). The Christian who does not think in terms of God’s Word is described as “senseless and ignorant,” like the “beast” (Ps. 73:22). They act “like unreasoning animals” (2 Pet. 2:12). Reasoning is required of the Christian and non-Christian, but on God’s terms. In this way, “reason can be thought of as a tool — man’s intellectual or mental capacity. Taken in this sense, reason is a gift of God to man, indeed part of the divine image. When God bids His people ‘Come let us reason together’ (Isa. 1:18), we see that, like God, we are capable of rational thought and communication. God has given us our mental abilities to serve and glorify Him. It is part of the greatest commandment of the law that we should”[8] love God with our mind (Matt. 22:37). In general, the church agreed. Take, for example, Tertullian (c. 155–230): “Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason—nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason.”[9]

The Soulless Atheist • by Gary DeMar • The American Vision
 
Last edited:

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,172
9,191
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,152,592.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Philosophers (non believers at times) also say much the same in a way -- there are significant limits on reasoning, and it's quite easy to just make errors, far more than people tend to understand.

Instead of getting into that kind of subtle and sometimes complex explanation of how reason can go wrong, I'd like to just simply point to one of the most common problems people have, non believers so repeatedly on Christian sites:

To reason from a premise that itself should be an open question. Or in other words, to assume your conclusion (circular reasoning).

A prime example: "Why does God allow innocent children to die? He must be either not-beneficent, or else not omniscient or else not omnipotent."

But here, they used a premise that caused the entire reasoning process to merely be circular reasoning.

This is far more common than people realize. Atheists have a couple dozen or more common talking points, and they pretty much uniformly have hidden premises that are false assumptions. It's then not hard to discover the false premise if you search for it. That makes it easy to help point out the flaw. (though it gets already-done-that for me, where I can get bored with giving the same explanation to like the 58th person bringing up the talking point. And that's even if they are willing to listen at all. Many can be merely dogmatic, and unable to hear what you say to them.)
 
Upvote 0

Randy777

Well-Known Member
Oct 18, 2017
1,174
312
Atlanta
✟91,969.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” c

20Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Daniel Marsh
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I Facebook blogged this today, and decided to do a thread on it.I found a nice little article that talks a bit about the proper use reason in the Christian Faith. Originally I was on the web looking at articles that pertain to atheists because, I sometimes talk a lot to atheists which can be frustrating. This topic however is an important topic because I've often seen reason downplayed or portrayed as being downright unspiritual by some Christians of various traditions."
All conflicting views cause me to revisit the reasons for my faith,
which is always a good thing that I enjoy. It never pains me to walk
down the same path I once walked.
 
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,667
9,977
78
Auckland
✟376,544.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
James 3
13Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Daniel Marsh
Upvote 0

Pavel Mosko

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic
Supporter
Oct 4, 2016
7,236
7,312
56
Boyertown, PA.
✟768,575.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
This is far more common than people realize. Atheists have a couple dozen or more common talking points, and they pretty much uniformly have hidden premises that are false assumptions. It's then not hard to discover the false premise if you search for it. That makes it easy to help point out the flaw. (though it gets already-done-that for me, where I can get bored with giving the same explanation to like the 58th person bringing up the talking point. And that's even if they are willing to listen at all. Many can be merely dogmatic, and unable to hear what you say to them.)

Yes I've really tried to cover that, explain that. One trick I've especially from a few is to try to funnel or shoe horn everything down into a "it's either A or B, logically syllogism", and that often cannot really be done. Because with God, you end up getting into the stuff that you cannot completely see and no about. And that especially is the problem. It's the saying concerning computing "Garbage in equals garbage out." So many of them want to weigh in on things that they do not have any expertise in. Theology, the nature of ancient languages, literary genres, ancient idioms etc. And they come at from a modern perspective etc. So of course it is going to be nonsense.

I actually often cite the concept of the Johari window, especially concerning the nature of "the blind spot", after having some problems in life that came from that. Since atheists don't value many areas related to spirituality, religion, Christianity etc. they tend to not study them, and this basically makes the blind spot area even more significant (because the more you avoid those areas the larger it is). Some of them may learn somewhat from talking to Christians etc. but for the most part I don't think many of them actually learn anything because that is not the reason they are on the web site.


Johari window - Wikipedia
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Daniel Marsh
Upvote 0

Pavel Mosko

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic
Supporter
Oct 4, 2016
7,236
7,312
56
Boyertown, PA.
✟768,575.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
nstead of getting into that kind of subtle and sometimes complex explanation of how reason can go wrong, I'd like to just simply point to one of the most common problems people have, non believers so repeatedly on Christian sites:

To reason from a premise that itself should be an open question. Or in other words, to assume your conclusion (circular reasoning).

A prime example: "Why does God allow innocent children to die? He must be either not-beneficent, or else not omniscient or else not omnipotent."

But here, they used a premise that caused the entire reasoning process to merely be circular reasoning.


Yes. The article actually lays out one problem from Sam Harris. Harris believes that someday Science will reveal to us all truth, as far as from a metaphysical, and moral sense. In some ways, that is very naive from what we know about Science. There is a classic text book that I had as an undergraduate in the 80s that is still read, called "Science and Human Values".

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00623K040/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1


One essay in particular really takes that view of Scientism to task. (I wish I could find the exact quote. I think out of all the books of undergraduate school that was the only one I kept to this day). Anyway in a nutshell the author describes research methods, especially statistical analysis "levels of confidence" and points out that there is nothing intrinsic or magical about why a 95% confidence level is used etc. These things were simply chosen, or picked by subjective human standards (hoping to have the optimal balance between avoiding false positives and false negatives etc.). And he goes on like that on other issues especially talking about moral choices etc. but essentially in the opposite vein of what Harris suggests namely that Science cannot deal with moral choices, and other philosophical stuff, that is the providence of things like religion, philosophy, law etc. But its funny, because folks like Harris might attack various views of infallibility and inspiration but they seem to giving that to Science and Logic etc.
 
Upvote 0

Jamsie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 2, 2017
2,211
1,279
73
Vermont
✟324,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
"The biblical understanding of reason and the use of the mind in pursuing rational lines of arguments is quite different from that of the rationalist. “The Christian is not hostile to reason as reason, but to Reason as god. The Christian does not believe in reason [as an ultimate authority]; he believes in God and he uses reason under God.”[7] We were created to use our minds. “Do not be as the horse or as the mule which have no understanding” (Prov. 32:9a). The Christian who does not think in terms of God’s Word is described as “senseless and ignorant,” like the “beast” (Ps. 73:22). They act “like unreasoning animals” (2 Pet. 2:12). Reasoning is required of the Christian and non-Christian, but on God’s terms. In this way, “reason can be thought of as a tool — man’s intellectual or mental capacity. Taken in this sense, reason is a gift of God to man, indeed part of the divine image. When God bids His people ‘Come let us reason together’ (Isa. 1:18), we see that, like God, we are capable of rational thought and communication. God has given us our mental abilities to serve and glorify Him. It is part of the greatest commandment of the law that we should”[8] love God with our mind (Matt. 22:37). In general, the church agreed. Take, for example, Tertullian (c. 155–230): “Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as there is nothing which God the Maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason—nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason.”[9]

The Soulless Atheist • by Gary DeMar • The American Vision

Reason’s last step is that recognition that there are an infinite number of things beyond it -
Pascal

“If we submit everything to reason our religion will be left with nothing mysterious or supernatural. If we offend the principles of reason our religion will be absurd and ridiculous . . . There are two equally dangerous extremes: to exclude reason, to admit nothing but reason.” - Pascal
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pavel Mosko
Upvote 0

Hawkins

Member
Supporter
Apr 27, 2005
2,559
394
Canada
✟235,114.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is difficult to reason with the atheists because they are firmly captive by Satan. They are all fooled with fallacious concepts they use to start with any reasoning. While some of them initially may sound reasonable and logical, but whenever their bubble is burst they may suddenly turn to trolls or play dumb or ask questions such as are't Christians supposed to be polite and patient, or throw in all types of intellectual dishonesty.

Their purpose of plaguing the Internet is to mock Christianity instead of actually reasoning with anyone.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Reason’s last step is that recognition that there are an infinite number of things beyond it -
Pascal

“If we submit everything to reason our religion will be left with nothing mysterious or supernatural. If we offend the principles of reason our religion will be absurd and ridiculous . . . There are two equally dangerous extremes: to exclude reason, to admit nothing but reason.” - Pascal

Therein lie the problem. Pascal assigned religion solely to the emotional, whereas religions generally present more reasoned ways of thinking than secular doctrines.

Blaise Pascal, (born June 19, 1623, Clermont-Ferrand, France—died August 19, 1662, Paris), French mathematician, physicist, religious philosopher, and master of prose. He laid the foundation for the modern theory of probabilities, formulated what came to be known as Pascal’s principle of pressure, and propagated a religious doctrine that taught the experience of God through the heart rather than through reason.
 
Upvote 0

Jamsie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 2, 2017
2,211
1,279
73
Vermont
✟324,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Therein lie the problem. Pascal assigned religion solely to the emotional, whereas religions generally present more reasoned ways of thinking than secular doctrines.

Blaise Pascal, (born June 19, 1623, Clermont-Ferrand, France—died August 19, 1662, Paris), French mathematician, physicist, religious philosopher, and master of prose. He laid the foundation for the modern theory of probabilities, formulated what came to be known as Pascal’s principle of pressure, and propagated a religious doctrine that taught the experience of God through the heart rather than through reason.

Perhaps this will help in understanding Pascal -

"Pascal as an apologist was not hostile to reason, rather, he saw the proper place for reason in its relation to the things of faith; Pascal recognized the limits of reason, and rather than assert that faith is contrary to the ideal of reason he asserted that it is beyond and above reason, specifically reason as it is in fallen man."

Pascal: Faith & Reason
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Perhaps this will help in understanding Pascal -

"Pascal as an apologist was not hostile to reason, rather, he saw the proper place for reason in its relation to the things of faith; Pascal recognized the limits of reason, and rather than assert that faith is contrary to the ideal of reason he asserted that it is beyond and above reason, specifically reason as it is in fallen man."

Pascal: Faith & Reason

I don't think Pascal understood how reasonably religious people thought. This problem exists today as well. Religion is a faith in things spiritual, but is also a practical and moral way of reasoning.
 
Upvote 0

Jamsie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 2, 2017
2,211
1,279
73
Vermont
✟324,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I don't think Pascal understood how reasonably religious people thought. This problem exists today as well. Religion is a faith in things spiritual, but is also a practical and moral way of reasoning.

I think Pascal understood quite a bit about Faith and Reason in the context of what religious people think. I think it is a superficial understanding of Pascal that leads one to some form of fideism regarding his thoughts...there are ample resources to unpack this. As with this I couldn't agree with him more..."Faith is different from proof; the one is human, the other is a gift of God." Perhaps one need consider how he was addressing "reason" and defining such.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I think Pascal understood quite a bit about Faith and Reason in the context of what religious people think. I think it is a superficial understanding of Pascal that leads one to some form of fideism regarding his thoughts...there are ample resources to unpack this. As with this I couldn't agree with him more..."Faith is different from proof; the one is human, the other is a gift of God." Perhaps one need consider how he was addressing "reason" and defining such.

Did Pascal think that religious people were unreasonable generally?
 
Upvote 0

Jamsie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 2, 2017
2,211
1,279
73
Vermont
✟324,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Did Pascal think that religious people were unreasonable generally?

Why not delve into the resources available to understand Pascal's view:

"Pascal lived in the age of the rise of rationalism. Revelation had fallen on hard times; man’s reason was now the final source for truth. In the realm of religious belief many people exalted reason and adopted a deistic view of God. Some, however, became skeptics. They doubted the competence of both revelation and reason.

Although Pascal couldn’t side with the skeptics, neither would he go the way of the rationalists. Instead of arguing that revelation was a better source of truth than reason, he focused on the limitations of reason itself. (I should stop here to note that by reason Pascal meant the reasoning process. He did not deny the true powers of reason; he was, after all, a scientist and mathematician.)"

Blaise Pascal: An Apologist for Our Times – A Defense of Christianity Ringing True Today
 
  • Informative
Reactions: OldWiseGuy
Upvote 0

Jamsie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 2, 2017
2,211
1,279
73
Vermont
✟324,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I don't think Pascal understood how reasonably religious people thought. This problem exists today as well. Religion is a faith in things spiritual, but is also a practical and moral way of reasoning.

What do reasonably religious people think? Do you think your use of "reason" is the same as Pascal's use of "reason"?
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
What do reasonably religious people think? Do you think your use of "reason" is the same as Pascal's use of "reason"?

Mine is practical. I think his was more an intellectual exercise.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jamsie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 2, 2017
2,211
1,279
73
Vermont
✟324,891.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Mine is practical. I think his was more an intellectual exercise.

Do you think people come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through reason? Another quote on Pascal: "Pascal was willing, as we shall see, to use reason to defend the Christian Faith. Still, he recognized man to be more than a thinking machine. Man comes complete with prejudices, emotions, a will, and a vivid imagination. The whole man must be evangelized, not just his mind. According to Peter Kreeft, "Like Augustine, Pascal knows that the heart is deeper than the head, but like Augustine he does not cut off his own head, or so soften it up with relativism and subjectivism and 'open-mindedness' that his brains fall out."

I think too that Pascal thought that reason alone and arguments for the existence of God might lead one to a sort of Deism. I think this too brings Pascal's thoughts to view: "The Christian’s God does not consist merely of a God who is the author of mathematical truths—but the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob. The God of the Christians is a God of love and consolation: he is a God who fills the soul and heart of those whom he possesses: he is a God who makes them inwardly aware of their wretchedness and his infinite mercy: who united himself with them in the depths of their soul: who fills it with humility, joy, confidence and love: who makes them incapable of having any other end but him."
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldWiseGuy
Upvote 0