The Proof

[mark kennedy]

Haha, excellent! I think that I will have to study this paper in a bit more detail before I make any counter-points to your arguments. I've only taken 2 or 3 genetics classes so far in my education, so alot of the terminology presented in the paper is a little difficult for me to understand. Not to worry though - I love learning new stuff, so I'll do my best to learn what I can from this article. I'm quite busy for the next week or so, but I'll do my best to read through it by next week.

Not one, not two, but three genetics courses. I can't help it, I'm excited to see what you have in store for me. Hope you find some time real soon, looking forward to it.

For now though, I have a response to the first part of your post:

Looking forward to it...

I am sorry that your philosophy of religion was so dishonest. My professor was actually quite good. He did not tell us his religious beliefs, and he did not bias the course in any way that I could see. He certainly didn't start his lectures by saying "Well, Augustine somehow convinced himself God exists with the following proof...."

So your Professor didn't start off with arguments for God's existence? Some how that does not surprise me. I think your putting me on but let's see where this goes.

We studied primarily Christianity, and arguments for and against the existence of God, the necessity of religion in society, and so on.

So you never studied the great body of work in favor of the Christian faith? Ever hear of William Ramsey or Simon Greenleaf? I didn't think so...

The course was like a roller coaster for most of the students involved - they began mostly as skeptics, then became convinced by proofs of God's existence, then convinced by proofs against God's existence, then convinced again of His existence. It was actually quite funny. The professor left us with none of his own thoughts on the issue, and encouraged us to research the topic for ourselves. It was quite well done. It is unfortunate that your experience was not similar.

Actually I loved the Professor who taught me the Philosophy of Religion. In fact, it was the same person who taught me in the Introduction to Philosophy class I took. I was neither offended nor was I amused. God had nothing to do with it and that creates a problem for me.

Care for another round?

 

[FallingWaters]

I will say very firmly that I have no interest in debating with Falling Water. I see little to gain from a person who has such poor manners and lack of decent respect. My beef is with the kind of person who seems to wear like a badge the fact that they are not interested in the opinion of others. I do not stand for this.
...

I'm sorry you saw it that way. I am not "wearing a badge", I was just trying to be open and honest, and by the way, I was addressing someone else, not you. After having been taught evolution was true all my life, I now believe it not to be true. It's as simple as that. I don't care to "discuss it" with anyone or have my "brain picked", or be "checked" by fifteen people who think they have an intellect superior to mine to make sure that my beliefs are logically founded, in their opinion.

I wish you would stop accusing me of having poor manners and lack of respect since you are the Evolutionist posting in a Creationist forum, against the rules of this forum.


****************************************************
To all non-Creationists who keep posting here in opposition to the rules:

It's funny how you non-creationists come here to try to "correct" us, as if we are wrong and you are right. You come in here hoping to: "change our minds", "enlighten us", "introduce us to new ideas", "open up our horizons", etc., etc., etc, when you have not been invited to do so. It's funny how you guys don't see that as arrogant and rude. I would never in a million years walk up to somebody and just start telling them all the things that are wrong with what they believe. How rude is that?! And then you have all kinds of insults to throw at us when we don't take kindly to you forcing your ideas down our throats.

This is the Creationism forum where supposedly Creationists can come and discuss Creationism ideas without the intrusion of non-creationists who so vehemently believe otherwise.

But as I mentioned earlier, I am done in the Creationism forum. I had some hope that the evolutionists would stay out, but that is just not the case, and it is not the fault of the mods.

 

[ptamper]

I wish you would stop accusing me of having poor manners and lack of respect since you are the Evolutionist posting in a Creationist forum, against the rules of this forum.

Now this needs dealing with right now. You have make a very serious and damaging statement and unless this is reversed I shall have to make official complaint.

For somebody who has been attacked for my belief in God created world. For somebody who has been cussed at and called a stammering idiot and punched in face. For somebody of this histroy be told to they are NOT a Creationist and told to go off awaty to a place for Evolutionists. THis is a very serios and damaging mistake

This needs to be dealt with.

 

[mark kennedy]

Now this needs dealing with right now. You have make a very serious and damaging statement and unless this is reversed I shall have to make official complaint.

While your at it complain about me because I feel even stronger about this then she does. I actually have nothing against an atheist who is up front with regards to their convictions. I happen to know for a fact that Darwinians have plans to replace traditional theism with their transcendental metaphysics. I consider Theistic Evolution to be an effort to do exactly that.

For somebody who has been attacked for my belief in God created world. For somebody who has been cussed at and called a stammering idiot and punched in face. For somebody of this histroy be told to they are NOT a Creationist and told to go off awaty to a place for Evolutionists. THis is a very serios and damaging mistake

This needs to be dealt with.

You know what, I discuss these things with people openly and I have never gotten anything but indifference. The only difference between on here and out in the world is in personal interactions people will actually listen.

Maybe it's your attitude that's provoking people. FW is not a rude or insensitive person. Like most creationists she shuns arguments of science falsely so called. Most of the attacks are ad hominem in nature, the object is simply to make creationists feel intellectually inferior. These tactics no longer work on me because I have seen the evidence.

So while you are complaining you can tell them I called you a troll.

 

[ptamper]

Yes I have thought seriously about this and I cannot let it stand.

To be accuse of being Evolutionist is about the worse attack that can be made on my character. In my view this is like being called the worst in the world like a sex offender or such. There is also legal laws to protect people from this.

I have fought long and hard to portray my knowledge of a world whch has been moulded by God. It has become my place in the world. And I have made too many sacrifice to let this pass.

This needs to be dealt with. I have no beef against you Mark. You have much intelligence and treat people with respect.

One suggestion I would say however is that you refer to people not taking note of you. I have never found this. When I talk in the streets I have good and strong debates with people. Yes this can be good and bad. Sometimes they get to heated and that is when I have been attacked.

But why do have these reactions. Yes it may be because I have a certain way. Sometimes Mark we need to speak the language of fools like me. This is what Jesus learnt.

There is a danger when you say thnigs like this>

Most of the attacks are ad hominem in nature, the object is simply to make creationists feel intellectually inferior.

that you are guilty of what you accuse others of. I know not what ad hominem means and when I read this kind of language it is like being denied access to a certain part of a shop. I would say you will get more reaction if you kept language simple.

This is just advice and I know that you have a gift in fighting back against science talk. This is something can never be lost.

 

[mark kennedy]

Yes I have thought seriously about this and I cannot let it stand.

That does not make it untrue. Sometimes you have to take criticisms in the context they present themselves. You choose to be confrontational and have waived all rights to be treated as benign.

To be accuse of being Evolutionist is about the worse attack that can be made on my character. In my view this is like being called the worst in the world like a sex offender or such. There is also legal laws to protect people from this.

I'm a little confused, if you are an evolutionist then simply state that. I don't have a lot of patience with ambiguity.

I have fought long and hard to portray my knowledge of a world whch has been moulded by God. It has become my place in the world. And I have made too many sacrifice to let this pass.

More generalities when I have offered you particulars in good faith. Now if you believe that evolution is some kind of providence from God then just come out and say that. With that I will tell you, go in peace, we have not quarrel. If on the other hand you are twisting some secular philosophy into a bogus substitute for Christian theism I have nothing to do with you.

Speak your views and if you are not a Creationist then what are you doing here?

This needs to be dealt with. I have no beef against you Mark. You have much intelligence and treat people with respect.

I appreciate the compliment and I assure you I have no axe to grind. I'm learning about the Life Sciences and getting most of my information from people who are largely evolutionist in their worldview. I don't apologize for that, I take knowledge where I find it. Rest assured that as long as you behave yourself with courtesy and respect I consider you a guest of this forum. But bear in mind, if you attack someone like FW we are going to have a problem.

Make no mistake, there are conditions.

One suggestion I would say however is that you refer to people not taking note of you. I have never found this. When I talk in the streets I have good and strong debates with people. Yes this can be good and bad. Sometimes they get to heated and that is when I have been attacked.

I have not experienced anything of the sort. Most people are not that worried about our origins or the affect of creationism on science. That is only natural and what I would expect. Now if you are having heated debates it might be due to your attitude more then the content of your convictions.

But why do have these reactions. Yes it may be because I have a certain way. Sometimes Mark we need to speak the language of fools like me. This is what Jesus learnt.

Ok, I don't consider you a fool so relax. I think you have been taken in by a philosophy that is outside of science and yet pretends to represent scientific inquiry. I call it scientism and Darwinism is one of the most blatant examples of it. I don't mind talking to you but bear in mind that I have been doing this for a while. You are going to get no where talking to me as if I were intellectually challenged.

There is a danger when you say thnigs like this>

Let me say it again:

Most of the attacks are ad hominem in nature, the object is simply to make creationists feel intellectually inferior.

This is from personal experience and I get tired of the rhetorical dead ends that this kind of a debate is fueled by.

that you are guilty of what you accuse others of. I know not what ad hominem means and when I read this kind of language it is like being denied access to a certain part of a shop. I would say you will get more reaction if you kept language simple.

Now you level you criticism that I am indeed guilty of the things I object to. You have failed to provide the actual proof which is slanderous. I don't appreciate your attitude nor do I kindly receive your insinuation.

I am open to criticism but I don't take this kind of a slanderous accusation lightly. How dare you!

This is just advice and I know that you have a gift in fighting back against science talk. This is something can never be lost.

You really think I am fighting against science talk? Are you kidding me? It is the scientific literature that has persuaded me that Creationism is the most vital aspect of Evidential Christian Apologetics in our time.

It would not be so bad if it were not so obvious.

Criticize me and I will carefully consider you criticisms with all due diligence. If I see you leveling unprovoked and baseless attacks on the likes of FW then we are going to have a problem. Understand that and we may well have an open and honest exchange.

 

[ptamper]

I'm a little confused, if you are an evolutionist then simply state that. I don't have a lot of patience with ambiguity.

This must be stopped. I will not being labelled Evolutionist. This is now the fourth or fith time this has been directed at me and it is making me very angry. This needs to be reversed. There is a very legal need for this to be done.

I have stated clearly my status. I have stated and clearly and repeatedly. My belief in origin of the world is Creationist. It is a belief which is as strong as steel. Now to label me as Evolutionist is to strike me very deeply in the most delicate area of my world.

Now what seems to be happening here is that I am being attacked because I defend the right of people to have alternative view to Creationist. I not only defend it but I actively encourage it. THis is because when we close ourselves to opposition we close our minds.

From what I see the Evlolutionist on this forum have not attacked my belief but are helping us to form it. They do this by putting alternative. This is good and healthy and peopel who do not wish this I see as weak. That is my right.

I am honest with you Mark. In many way I am jealous of your mind. You have a fierce and active intelligence and abilty to debate on a much higher level than many- myself included.

It would have been a wish of mine to have been this way but God allocates skills for good reason. THis is why I say I cannot understand some of what you say all the time and make silly errors.

You see I still have no understanding of ad hominen. That was the point I was trying to make. And maybe this was why sometime peopple dont respond with passion to you. Because you block them science talk.

This was not critical just maybe a reason for the reaction.

 

[gluadys]

This must be stopped. I will not being labelled Evolutionist. This is now the fourth or fith time this has been directed at me and it is making me very angry.

I don't blame you. You feel the same way about being labelled an evolutionist when you are not as TEs feel about being told we are not Christian when we are.

You see I still have no understanding of ad hominen.

Yes, all of us should remember that not only is English a second language for some, but many people do not know Latin, so we should always be ready to explain a term when asked to do so.

For future reference ad hominem is Latin for "at the man" and refers to an argumentative technique where you ignore the points a person is making and reject their argument because of something about them personally. So, for example, scripture tells us some people did not take Jesus seriously because he was from Galilee and "can anything good come from Galilee? "

Mark is saying that many times evolutionists post things that do not advance an argument but simply make creationists feel inferior.

 

[FallingWaters]

This must be stopped. I will not being labelled Evolutionist. ....

Pardon me. I apologize.

I thought you were an evolutionist because no Creationist has ever accused me of being closed-minded before. With you insulting my character and arguing with me, I had no way of knowing we were on the same team. Neither could I discover your stance from your posts.

 

[mark kennedy]

I don't blame you. You feel the same way about being labelled an evolutionist when you are not as TEs feel about being told we are not Christian when we are.




Yes, all of us should remember that not only is English a second language for some, but many people do not know Latin, so we should always be ready to explain a term when asked to do so.

For future reference ad hominem is Latin for "at the man" and refers to an argumentative technique where you ignore the points a person is making and reject their argument because of something about them personally. So, for example, scripture tells us some people did not take Jesus seriously because he was from Galilee and "can anything good come from Galilee? "

Mark is saying that many times evolutionists post things that do not advance an argument but simply make creationists feel inferior.

Thanks, but what I was saying is that the whole point is to make Creationists feel inferior. You are gracious as always but strangely tweeked in favor of an ideology that is intrinsically atheistic. If you can maintain that and still remain Christian all I can say is more power to you.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

This must be stopped. I will not being labelled Evolutionist. This is now the fourth or fith time this has been directed at me and it is making me very angry. This needs to be reversed. There is a very legal need for this to be done.

Then be clear, get off the fence or stop complaining that you are misunderstood.

I have stated clearly my status. I have stated and clearly and repeatedly. My belief in origin of the world is Creationist. It is a belief which is as strong as steel. Now to label me as Evolutionist is to strike me very deeply in the most delicate area of my world.

Then what's the problem, you among friends here and we are certainly not out trying to brand Creationists as evolutionists. I'm still not sure why you are being so confrontational and frankly I am getting skeptical of what your actual beliefs are.

Now what seems to be happening here is that I am being attacked because I defend the right of people to have alternative view to Creationist. I not only defend it but I actively encourage it. THis is because when we close ourselves to opposition we close our minds.

I am open to opposing views, in fact, I seek them out. My thing is evidential apologetics and I would not shun an objective criticism of Creationism on terms I can understand. You are being ambiguise which makes your posts suspect. It could be that you are being misunderstood but you have to take a little responsibility for the confrontational nature of your posts.

From what I see the Evlolutionist on this forum have not attacked my belief but are helping us to form it. They do this by putting alternative. This is good and healthy and peopel who do not wish this I see as weak. That is my right.

I learn a lot from evolutionists if that's what you are getting at. What I would like to see is this forum off limits to evolutionists and I am not shy about saying that. The reason is that I would like to talk to Creationists and the evolutionists run them off with a vengeance. I find that repulsive.

I am honest with you Mark. In many way I am jealous of your mind. You have a fierce and active intelligence and abilty to debate on a much higher level than many- myself included.

Your very kind, I appreciate that.

It would have been a wish of mine to have been this way but God allocates skills for good reason. THis is why I say I cannot understand some of what you say all the time and make silly errors.

I can't begin to describe the comedy of errors that led me to this place. The thing for me is that it's not that complicated when you get down to the brass tacks. Hang in there, if you are serious there are a lot of ways to go.

You see I still have no understanding of ad hominen. That was the point I was trying to make. And maybe this was why sometime peopple dont respond with passion to you. Because you block them science talk.

This was not critical just maybe a reason for the reaction.

If you spend any time in these debates you will encounter a lot of personal attacks. The purpose is not to improve your understanding but to diminish your self opinion. I encounter these on a regular basis and wouldn't dream of misleading you about them.

An ad hominem attack is a fallacy that attacks the person rather then the argument. The most common one is that you are ignorant because you are a creationist, actually its a presumption of ignorance.

Look, don't get huffy with FW and we will get along.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[ptamper]

Pardon me. I apologize.

I thought you were an evolutionist because no Creationist has ever accused me of being closed-minded before. With you insulting my character and arguing with me, I had no way of knowing we were on the same team. Neither could I discover your stance from your posts.

I cannot thank you enough for this Falling Water. You may not realise how much this means to me. It was something whih had rocked me to the bone when it was said.

I take much of the blame for this as my ability to pass on my messsage is still very poor. I work on this daily but it sometimes does not come natural. I have more success when I deal with people in person I think .

I almost must make apology for some accusations I have made of lack of respect and such. This is not my character but sometimes when I feel very strongly on subject I push to far. This I apologize for.

 

[FallingWaters]

I cannot thank you enough for this Falling Water. You may not realise how much this means to me. It was something whih had rocked me to the bone when it was said.

I take much of the blame for this as my ability to pass on my messsage is still very poor. I work on this daily but it sometimes does not come natural. I have more success when I deal with people in person I think .

I almost must make apology for some accusations I have made of lack of respect and such. This is not my character but sometimes when I feel very strongly on subject I push to far. This I apologize for.

Thank you. I forgive you, too.

 

[mark kennedy]

That is much better, thanks guys, I just love it when things work out like that.

 

[anonymous1515]

Alright Mark, I had a quick chance to glance over the paper for a second time. Thanks a bunch for posting it: this is truly a breakthrough paper. I think it's pretty interesting. I'll create a new thread to discuss it with you, since this area is just for creationists to discuss their ideas.

 

[anonymous1515]

Ok, the new thread is located at:

http://christianforums.com/t6931223-chimp-to-human-brains-discussion.html

 

[Dannager]

I thought you were an evolutionist because no Creationist has ever accused me of being closed-minded before.

There's a first for everything. You didn't listen when evolutionists said it. Are you going to continue ignoring it even when it comes from someone "on your side"?

 

[FallingWaters]

There's a first for everything. You didn't listen when evolutionists said it. Are you going to continue ignoring it even when it comes from someone "on your side"?

Dear Dannager,

I don't have anything against you personally. You're probably a nice person. I'll make you a deal. This deal is for you only, for today only, because I am leaving this forum forever and never coming back, if my curiosity doesn't get the better of me.

Here's the deal: just for today, you can tell me any one thing you want to and I will open my mind long enough to consider it. Would that make you happy?

But first a few ground rules, since I don't know you:
Tell me your sex, how old you are, your education level, major in college, and what you do for a living.
If you have any other credentials, please list them.

If you expect me to take seriously the things that you say, I have to first believe that you're qualified to say them. I'm not just saying that to be cantankerous, I feel that way about anybody who wants to teach me anything.

Just to let you know, I will have more respect for you if you don't have any spelling errors, and - this is important - it needs to be understandable by a 12 year old - not that I'm only as smart as a 12 year old, but things that have too many complicated steps, I can't understand that well.

Anyway, I will check back in a few hours. I have to go just now.

 

[Dannager]

Dear Dannager,

I don't have anything against you personally. You're probably a nice person. I'll make you a deal. This deal is for you only, for today only, because I am leaving this forum forever and never coming back, if my curiosity doesn't get the better of me.

Here's the deal: just for today, you can tell me any one thing you want to and I will open my mind long enough to consider it. Would that make you happy?

But first a few ground rules, since I don't know you:
Tell me your sex, how old you are, your education level, major in college, and what you do for a living.
If you have any other credentials, please list them.

If you expect me to take seriously the things that you say, I have to first believe that you're qualified to say them. I'm not just saying that to be cantankerous, I feel that way about anybody who wants to teach me anything.

Just to let you know, I will have more respect for you if you don't have any spelling errors, and - this is important - it needs to be understandable by a 12 year old - not that I'm only as smart as a 12 year old, but things that have too many complicated steps, I can't understand that well.

Anyway, I will check back in a few hours. I have to go just now.

The only thing I could possibly desire to encourage in you is the drive to learn, even of things you think you disagree with. Quite honestly, convincing someone of the factual nature of evolution is something that cannot be done in the space of a single topic, especially when the opposing viewpoint is so entrenched. So I merely ask that you consider, with as open a mind as you promised, that perhaps there is more for you to learn that you have not yet come to understand, and that the intellectual mandate God handed you when you were born still exists. Consider that it might be worthwhile to approach someone you disagree with and ask them, with as much honesty as you're able, to explain their position to you in detail - to take the time out of their own life in order to enrich yours.

This doesn't need to be about evolution. It can be about anything you disagree with. Please, though, consider it.

My gender and age are listed (male, 22). I am currently an undergraduate student at the University of California, Irvine, pursuing a double major in Political Science and Criminology, Law & Society. I have few other official qualifications to my name, though I hardly think they matter considering the request I've made of you. There are many on this board far more qualified and knowledgeable than myself who have made themselves available to teach others. I commend you on demanding qualifications, though. You should always endeavor to learn from experts in the field you are studying.

 

[FallingWaters]

The only thing I could possibly desire to encourage in you is the drive to learn, even of things you think you disagree with. Quite honestly, convincing someone of the factual nature of evolution is something that cannot be done in the space of a single topic, especially when the opposing viewpoint is so entrenched. So I merely ask that you consider, with as open a mind as you promised, that perhaps there is more for you to learn that you have not yet come to understand, and that the intellectual mandate God handed you when you were born still exists. Consider that it might be worthwhile to approach someone you disagree with and ask them, with as much honesty as you're able, to explain their position to you in detail - to take the time out of their own life in order to enrich yours.

This doesn't need to be about evolution. It can be about anything you disagree with. Please, though, consider it.

My gender and age are listed (male, 22). I am currently an undergraduate student at the University of California, Irvine, pursuing a double major in Political Science and Criminology, Law & Society. I have few other official qualifications to my name, though I hardly think they matter considering the request I've made of you. There are many on this board far more qualified and knowledgeable than myself who have made themselves available to teach others. I commend you on demanding qualifications, though. You should always endeavor to learn from experts in the field you are studying.

I will try to remember that.