the PROOF is in the ........pudding???......

[lucaspa]

Did you put your blinders on this morning? I refute them all the time. I did not know you wanted me to keep a running list of the things I have refuted but I suppose I could if that is what you require.

I have seen you state many times that the "opinions" of men regarding the data are in error. But whenever you make that statement, you never have what those opinions are. I would just like a short list of what the opinions you think are wrong.

For instance, do you think common ancestry is wrong? Do you think that natural selection is wrong? Do you think the transformation of one species to another is wrong?

Now, my post said nothing about "refuting". I simply asked for a list of those opinions you think are wrong.

As a teacher you should know that you can not teach people, they have to discover the truth for themselves. So, your claim that I have not falsifed anything is really a compliment.

I didn't make that claim. I asked: You've said this several times but never listed specifically what these opinions that are falsified are.

Now, read carefully. Nowhere did I claim you have not falsified anything. I am only saying that you have not said what these "falsified opinions" are.

So you can shelve the compliment and your self-congratulations.

 

[JohnR7]

I would just like a short list of what the opinions you think are wrong

I could try to keep it short for you. I should have some time this evening to work on that.

 

[lucaspa]

Oh, *** for tat. You also have a stawman version of the GAP theory. When you get it right, the so-called problems will disappear.

The difference is that I spent the paragraph before this showing how your version of natural selection is a strawman. Now, if you can do the same for my version of Gap Theory, please do so. Out-of-context quoting isn't going to help. We don't accept out-of-context quoting. Remember, we adhere to the 9th Commandment.

But to weed though all the theorys to seperate fact from fiction, truth from error, takes time and effort.

Then why are you saying what natural selection is when you are admitting here that you don't?! John, if you are going to use a theory as an argument, then you have to know accurately what that theory says. Whether the theory is supported or falsified, you at least must know what the theory is.

You don't know what natural selection is. If you did, you would not have made the argument you did.

Actually, it is only something a christian can do, to seperate truth from error.

How did you arrive at that conclusion? Even John Calvin knew that non-believers can separate truth from error in science. See his commentary Genesis.

A lot of scientific discovery began with Christians.

And since at least 40% of scientists in the US are Christians, a lot of scientific discovery is still begun by Christians. For instance, the Modern Synthesis of evolution, or neo-Darwinism, began with the Christian Theodosius Dobzhansky.

In some cases, error has been mixed in with truth and I agree that we can not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Eccles. 10:1
Dead flies putrefy the perfumer's ointment,
And cause it to give off a foul odor;
So does a little folly to one respected for wisdom and honor.

Once again you talk about "error" but are not specific. What specifically do you view as "error"?

Jesus is coming (soon) for a pure people, without error, without spot, blemish or wrinkle.

I suppose you have a proof verse for this? Since we are all sinners, and thus commit error, it looks like Jesus will not be coming for anyone.

However, I'm not that interested in this heretical theology here. What I am more interested in is how that statement relates to evolution. Just how do you see evolution having an effect on Jesus' coming?

 

[lucaspa]

I could try to keep it short for you. I should have some time this evening to work on that.

I would think you could just list them 1, 2, 3. It's not that difficult a request, John. Why are you ducking?

 

[jobob]

I would say the answer is 0
There is nothing in the theory of evolution that cannot be falsified. There are many things that most likely (99.9999% sure) wont be falsified, however there is always the possibility. Thats what makes it science. The fact that if new real evidence comes along that does bring evolution into question, we will question it.

I commend youre honesty arikay........

We disagree on just about everything.......but this thread again wasnt about the details.......but just seeing who would be honest.

Ill be honest as well.........I know the evidence when taken together from all fields of science would lead most sensible folks to believe in evolution....

As a christian, its not always about what I can see and prove tho....

I believe in 6 days becuase the language of Genesis 1 says so regardless of how we try to make it say different....

Jewish theologians might disagree, but most men that I have studied that are well taught in the language itself agree that it does indeed make 6 earth rotation days very clear...

To me its about faith ......then trying to see how it alll fits into Gods word.....


edit:
I would like to add I agree with lucaspa on his speciation point ealier.

Raising rabbit for a few years now I can easily observe thru controlled breeding the effect on future generations..... I can even fortell what the probable outcome will be from breeding two rabbits.

The diffence I have is that I dont belive this is unlimited change......I dont believe that a rabbit will evolve very far from the stock animal regardless of a time frame........

 

[Nathan Poe]

Did you put your blinders on this morning? I refute them all the time. I did not know you wanted me to keep a running list of the things I have refuted but I suppose I could if that is what you require.

No, we just want you to name ONE. To date, you have failed to do so.

I have been at this to long. As a teacher you should know that you can not teach people, they have to discover the truth for themselves. So, your claim that I have not falsifed anything is really a compliment. It shows that I am not out trying to win converts to my way of thinking. But I am helping people on their own, to come to a better understanding.

And failing miserably.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I commend youre honesty arikay........

We disagree on just about everything.......but this thread again wasnt about the details.......but just seeing who would be honest.

Ill be honest as well.........I know the evidence when taken together from all fields of science would lead most sensible folks to believe in evolution....

As a christian, its not always about what I can see and prove tho....

I believe in 6 days becuase the language of Genesis 1 says so regardless of how we try to make it say different....

So you believe that your God asks you not to be sensible, but to follow your own uberliteral interpretation of Genesis?

Isn't that tantamount to a denial of the greatest gift God ever gave you: reason?

Jewish theologians might disagree, but most men that I have studied that are well taught in the language itself agree that it does indeed make 6 earth rotation days very clear...

What was your opinion on the people who disagreed? Where did their interpretation go off-track?

To me its about faith ......then trying to see how it alll fits into Gods word.....

And what exactly is "God's Word?"

The Bible?
Or the Living Christ?

edit:
I would like to add I agree with lucaspa on his speciation point ealier.

Raising rabbit for a few years now I can easily observe thru controlled breeding the effect on future generations..... I can even fortell what the probable outcome will be from breeding two rabbits.

The diffence I have is that I dont belive this is unlimited change......I dont believe that a rabbit will evolve very far from the stock animal regardless of a time frame........

That's a belief, and a sensible one at that. But "regardless if a time frame" is a pretty bold statement. What is a "stock animal" anyway?

 

[jobob]

So you believe that your God asks you not to be sensible, but to follow your own uberliteral interpretation of Genesis?
Isn't that tantamount to a denial of the greatest gift God ever gave you: reason?

good question........

Heres one for you.............

Couldnt Moses have done MORE for his people by staying in the favor of the egyptians as far as common sense goes ?

By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called a son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to have the temporary pleasure of sin, regarding the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
(Heb 11:24-26)

Yet instead he turned away from what at least *I* would have seen as ''common sense'' and looked to something deeper...

Not the same you think?.......... is it not common sense that the evidence points to evolution and billions of years ?

Yet Linguists who know Hebrew say that Genesis says 6 literal days.....


So, what do I follow.....the path that ''seems'' to be the most logical, the most ''sense''....... Or do I follow Moses example ...... well for that matter, and also the example of lots prophets of the OT and then the Followers of Jesus in the New.......

Moses didnt ask for God to come to Him in his world and on his terms, the way he understood things.....
Moses went looking for God even tho it meant probably seeming somewhat ''unsensible'' and Id venture a guess and say also probably ''stubborn, hardheaded, dogmatic, etc''

I cant see those egyptians even beginning to understand his actions...

But then this is falling on deaf ears, isnt it Poe..........Moses is either completely fictional to you........or if not, then at least his story is exaggerated....

and please no one give me some tripe about ''so now your Moses''.........only an idiot could mistake my wanting to follow his example as being that deluded....

What was your opinion on the people who disagreed? Where did their interpretation go off-track?

It went off-track when they decided they knew better than the writer of Genesis 1...

And what exactly is "God's Word?"

The Bible?
Or the Living Christ?

I suppose they both are...

That's a belief, and a sensible one at that. But "regardless if a time frame" is a pretty bold statement. What is a "stock animal" anyway?

Yeah, I know.........we dont have any firm defintions and ''kinds'' doesnt jive for you........
Dont know what to tell you on this one ........ we both know youll reject anything I say.....

 

[Nathan Poe]

good question........

Heres one for you.............

Couldnt Moses have done MORE for his people by staying in the favor of the egyptians as far as common sense goes ?


Yet instead he turned away from what at least *I* would have seen as ''common sense'' and looked to something deeper...
Not the same you think?.......... is it not common sense that the evidence points to evolution and billions of years ?

Yet Linguists who know Hebrew say that Genesis says 6 literal days.....

Wow... where to begin...

First, why did Odysseus stay to see the Cyclops when "common sense" told him to just steal his sheep and split?
let's leave the myths at home and discuss people we know: People like you and me.

Second: Since when do you, who would claim to follow Christ above "common sense," put your faith in Hebrew Linguists?

Is it just because it sounds like what you want to hear?

So, what do I follow.....the path that ''seems'' to be the most logical, the most ''sense''....... Or do I follow Moses example ...... well for that matter, and also the example of lots prophets of the OT and then the Followers of Jesus in the New.......

Moses didnt ask for God to come to Him in his world and on his terms, the way he understood things.....
Moses went looking for God even tho it meant probably seeming somewhat ''unsensible'' and Id venture a guess and say also probably ''stubborn, hardheaded, dogmatic, etc''

What applied to him must certainly apply to you. I won't argue.

I cant see those egyptians even beginning to understand his actions...

Funny, it's rather simple to me.

A man abandons his adopted life in favor of his true one.

All his life, his "civilization" teaches him its definition of "right" and "wrong," but this man, who was never really a part of that society, comes to reject its false teachings and discovers the true ones, as well as their source (God).

And here's the kicker: He discovers it through the slave race: through the people that "civilization" taught him were lower than dirt. Armed with this newfound knowledge, he leads the slaves to freedom.

Attention all literature fans: Does this story sound familiar?

But then this is falling on deaf ears, isnt it Poe..........Moses is either completely fictional to you........or if not, then at least his story is exaggerated....

True, but even a fictional story can teach a moral lesson. One can learn from a character's actions regardless of whether they actually happened or not...

But then, this is falling on deaf ears, isn't it, FoC?

and please no one give me some tripe about ''so now your Moses''.........only an idiot could mistake my wanting to follow his example as being that deluded....

Or someone overestimating your sense of infallibility. I must confess the thought occurred to me at first.

In any case, certianly Moses, real or fictional, is a worthy role model, is he not?

It went off-track when they decided they knew better than the writer of Genesis 1...

And who was that? Since the author is unknown, there's nothing arrogant about thinking that maybe someone else might know better than he did...

I suppose they both are...

Wow, you just put a book on the same pedestal as Christ... the very definition of "Idolatry."

Yeah, I know.........we dont have any firm defintions and ''kinds'' doesnt jive for you........
Dont know what to tell you on this one ........ we both know youll reject anything I say.....

Ah, is that why you choose to say nothing? Ye of little faith...

 

[jobob]

Wow... where to begin...

First, why did Odysseus stay to see the Cyclops when "common sense" told him to just steal his sheep and split?
let's leave the myths at home and discuss people we know: People like you and me.

Second: Since when do you, who would claim to follow Christ above "common sense," put your faith in Hebrew Linguists?

Is it just because it sounds like what you want to hear?

Uh, actaully I can read the text.........Genesis 1:5 pretty much gives the definition of a ''day''......... it was just wonderful to find that the experts on Hebrew agree.....

True, but even a fictional story can teach a moral lesson. One can learn from a character's actions regardless of whether they actually happened or not...

But then, this is falling on deaf ears, isn't it, FoC?

come now, you already know the answer to that one, friend......

In any case, certianly Moses, real or fictional, is a worthy role model, is he not?

In my little world in an case...

Wow, you just put a book on the same pedestal as Christ... the very definition of "Idolatry."

wonderful effort there.......... youll need to find some younger christian worried about your judgements for that to work...

Ah, is that why you choose to say nothing? Ye of little faith...

We've been down this little trail before.....we both know where it leads........nowhere.....

 

[lucaspa]

Ill be honest as well.........I know the evidence when taken together from all fields of science would lead most sensible folks to believe in evolution....

As a christian, its not always about what I can see and prove tho....

I believe in 6 days becuase the language of Genesis 1 says so regardless of how we try to make it say different....

So in other words, you ignore God and rely on your interpretation of Genesis 1. Ignoring God's word in Genesis 2:4b that creation happened in a single day also.

I can't see how ignoring God can end well, but I wish you luck. I think you're gonna need it.

edit:
I would like to add I agree with lucaspa on his speciation point ealier.

Raising rabbit for a few years now I can easily observe thru controlled breeding the effect on future generations..... I can even fortell what the probable outcome will be from breeding two rabbits.

The diffence I have is that I dont belive this is unlimited change......I dont believe that a rabbit will evolve very far from the stock animal regardless of a time frame........

Jobob, the only reality in biology is species. By admitting that speciation happens, you have just accepted evolution! After all, what was the title of Darwin's book? Origin of the Species Now, if you want to get further away from the rabbit as a species, you need many speciation events spread thru time. See the diagram here and you will see how continued speciations will eventually get you to an animal very different from a rabbit!

http://pages.britishlibrary.net/charles.darwin/texts/origin_6th/origin6th_04.html

 

[jobob]

So in other words, you ignore God and rely on your interpretation of Genesis 1. Ignoring God's word in Genesis 2:4b that creation happened in a single day also.

This is hilarious........you full well know the wording is on my side, yet you and others keep jabbering on about ''MY"" interpretation...

Pick the book up and READ IT
Im not interpreting a thing there........just taking it as its written

By admitting that speciation happens, you have just accepted evolution!

youd like to think that wouldnt you

I accept that God gave HIs creatures the ability to adapt......nothing more.
Well, and that the fall has also allowed mutation to enter the picture..
not that that willl make a rabbit ever grow wings or anything

 

[The Bellman]

This is hilarious........you full well know the wording is on my side, yet you and others keep jabbering on about ''MY"" interpretation...

Pick the book up and READ IT
Im not interpreting a thing there........just taking it as its written



youd like to think that wouldnt you

I accept that God gave HIs creatures the ability to adapt......nothing more.
Well, and that the fall has also allowed mutation to enter the picture..
not that that willl make a rabbit ever grow wings or anything

Taking it "as written" IS an interpretation. Just as taking Jesus to be a literal door is an interpretation (after all, that's exactly "as written"). As has been said, you are valuing YOUR INTERPRETATION above the evidence God has placed all around you.

 

[jobob]

Taking it "as written" IS an interpretation. Just as taking Jesus to be a literal door is an interpretation (after all, that's exactly "as written"). As has been said, you are valuing YOUR INTERPRETATION above the evidence God has placed all around you.

Man, where is that ignore button.......

 

[lucaspa]

This is hilarious........you full well know the wording is on my side, yet you and others keep jabbering on about ''MY"" interpretation...

The wording in Genesis 2:4b is not on your side. "in the day God created the heavens and the earth." The Hebrew word is "beyom" and the prefix "be" applied means within a single day. But Genesis 1 has just told us it took 4 days to create the heavens and the earth.

Pick the book up and READ IT
Im not interpreting a thing there........just taking it as its written

You are interpreting it. After all, you are a 21st century person deciding what the text meant when it was written in 500 BC. You are imposing your meaning on it instead of trying to figure out what the text was meant to say to its audience in 500 BC. I find that somewhat arrogant on your part; that you can impose your judgement on God that way. But hey, that's between you and God. Just don't expect me to follow you in your dis of God.

youd like to think that wouldnt you

Address the argument. Address the title of Darwin's book. Address the diagram. I don't think you can. But you can always try to prove me wrong.

I accept that God gave HIs creatures the ability to adapt......nothing more.

And what is to stop that "ability to adapt" to generate a new species? You say I was right about speciation. Since I said that new species forming from existing species has been observed, then you agree that adaptation leads to new species. Well, since the only biological reality is species, that "ability to adapt" leads to the diversity of life on the planet, including humans.

Well, and that the fall has also allowed mutation to enter the picture.

And just what Biblical verse gave you this? If you are going to "READ" the Bible, then you can't insert anything into it that isn't there, can you?

not that that willl make a rabbit ever grow wings or anything

Of course a rabbit won't grow wings! Don't be silly. Species are very similar to the preceding species. But change accumulates. Come back and see the great-to-the-thousandth descendent species of rabbits and they could have wings!

 

[The Bellman]

Man, where is that ignore button.......

Yes, I would expect that of someone who has said "I believe X, and NO evidence that X is not true could ever stop me believing in X." Obviously, you must be highly skilled at avoiding hearing or reading things that you don't want to hear or read.

Is there a class creationists go to or something to learn how to do this? When I went to school, when someone said something you disagreed with, you discussed it with them, each side presenting arguments and evidence. Now, apparently, the idea is when someone says something you disagree with, you ignore it and them. Or perhaps you only do that when you can't present any arguments and evidence. Certainly, I can see where that would help a lot of you already hold a belief that you admit evidence has nothing to do with.

 

[Jimmy The Hand]

Actually, it is only something a christian can do, to seperate truth from error.

Wow.

That may be the most ludicrous, most arrogant statement I have yet seen here. And in this forum that is saying something.

 

[lucaspa]

Man, where is that ignore button.......

Not much of an answer to his argument, is it? Jobob, you are into "duck and weave". The next step is ad hominen and it looks like you are starting that.

So, Jobob, how about you try again to answer Bellman's post?
Taking it "as written" IS an interpretation. Just as taking Jesus to be a literal door is an interpretation (after all, that's exactly "as written"). As has been said, you are valuing YOUR INTERPRETATION above the evidence God has placed all around you.

Now, let me ask you: WHO CREATED? God, right? Then all that evidence in Creation was put there by God. Right? Where else did it come from?

So, why are you ignoring God to focus on your fallible (sinful) interpretation of the Bible alone. See the first quote in my signature. Why are you ignoring your fellow Christians who realized long ago that God's Creation can determine which interpretation of the Bible is correct?

 

[JohnR7]

flat earth ring a bell? ).

I would be glad for you to present your evidence in regards to the flat earth thing.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Uh, actaully I can read the text.........Genesis 1:5 pretty much gives the definition of a ''day''......... it was just wonderful to find that the experts on Hebrew agree.....

They agree as to what the myth says. Good on them.

Now on what basis does that myth correspond to reality?

come now, you already know the answer to that one, friend......


In my little world in an case...

So Moses doesn't have to be real in order for us to learn something useful from him.

Kinda shoots down the "You're going to dismiss this as 'fiction'" argument, doesn't it?

wonderful effort there.......... youll need to find some younger christian worried about your judgements for that to work...

My judgements? No, just my conclusions. By your own words, you've put the Bible on equal footing with Christ, have you not? Follow the logic...

We've been down this little trail before.....we both know where it leads........nowhere.....

Indeed we have. You say nothing, and scream "persecution!" when nobody believes you.