The problems I see with a God who predetermines and predestines all (of everything)...

[bling]

If the choices were known, and it was all made that way anyway, that means we were all made to make the choices that we did... And those choices were all based on many prior "factors" before it, and those before that, and those before that, ect, ect, all the way back to the beginning... God made some bad ones to be bad, cause he knew from the beginning that they would be bad, and "choose" bad, yet made them to be a part of this reality anyway... Which makes God responsible...

Faith has to come in here at this point... Faith in God's goodness, regardless of what we see and/or can see, ect... Knowing that despite all this bad, God is good... and has a very, very good reason and purpose and very good plan for all of it, and will make very great and good ultimate benefit come out of all of it... in the end most especially...

We only have choice based on what we don't know, who is who, all of that... So our choices still matter "to us", and as far as "we" are concerned, but their not really, real true choices, not really...

God Bless!

I can see the concept of God being outside of time is very difficult for you and lots of other people.

You talk about “prior”, “back”, and “before” which do not exist for God living throughout time, but could be used by God to communicate to man living and limited to a time line. It is all present time for God.

Think about it like this: You make an autonomous free will choice God has allowed you to make tomorrow even though most of your choices are not free will you can make limited free will choices, God today knows exactly what choice you made, because for God you already made that choice. From our perspective God knows the choice you will make, but from God’s perspective it is the choice you did make. The choice was not made twice nor was the choice made because it was predetermined choice, it is what was made once. As far as God is concerned you where born, made choices, died and are in heaven now.

There is only the appearance of our making choices over years of time, but for God everything happened at the same time.

The whole reason we spend time here on earth is to provide mature adults with the opportunity to fulfill our earthly objective and thus become like God Himself in that we have Godly type Love. God is Love and is thus doing all He can to help willing mature adults fulfill their earthly objective. Limited autonomous free will choices are required to fulfill the earthly objective so God provides this free will with lots of limits, but it still is our choice. To say: “We have no free will choices” is to say: “we have no reason for being here”.

 

[Neogaia777]

This is amusing. You are contradicting yourself constantly. We can't be crushed because of our own thinking or our own will, if we don't have any will! You are still assuming we have some control, or your post here makes no sense. If God is controlling everything, he is controlling what you think, he is controlling what thoughts enter your head and what thoughts don't. He is causing everything in your scenario. Again, there is a huge difference between knowing and controlling.

No, I'm not actually, predetermining a thing, is not the same as controlling it, God doesn't control it per-say, he just merely knows and knew how it was all gonna be and go including all our choices, actions, decision making, all that, from before the beginning of time, or giving it all life...

My point was, "WE DON'T KNOW" (what he (God) knows) and is the "only reason why we still have some measure of choice in the matter", or, at least, should act and do and be as if we do, even if we really do not, there is simply no other way to go about it...

That was my point...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I can see the concept of God being outside of time is very difficult for you and lots of other people.

You talk about “prior”, “back”, and “before” which do not exist for God living throughout time, but could be used by God to communicate to man living and limited to a time line. It is all present time for God.

Think about it like this: You make an autonomous free will choice God has allowed you to make tomorrow even though most of your choices are not free will you can make limited free will choices, God today knows exactly what choice you made, because for God you already made that choice. From our perspective God knows the choice you will make, but from God’s perspective it is the choice you did make. The choice was not made twice nor was the choice made because it was predetermined choice, it is what was made once. As far as God is concerned you where born, made choices, died and are in heaven now.

There is only the appearance of our making choices over years of time, but for God everything happened at the same time.

The whole reason we spend time here on earth is to provide mature adults with the opportunity to fulfill our earthly objective and thus become like God Himself in that we have Godly type Love. God is Love and is thus doing all He can to help willing mature adults fulfill their earthly objective. Limited autonomous free will choices are required to fulfill the earthly objective so God provides this free will with lots of limits, but it still is our choice. To say: “We have no free will choices” is to say: “we have no reason for being here”.

We cannot conceive of God outside of time, or without time, which is why the timeless Father God, made God the Son (YHWH) and Jesus to be God we could understand in time with us... And is why they are the only way to him (God the Father) (the timeless one) (the always fully omniscient one)...

God Bless!

 

[bling]

We cannot conceive of God outside of time, or without time, which is why the timeless Father God, made God the Son (YHWH) and Jesus to be God we could understand in time with us... And is why they are the only way to him (God the Father) (the timeless one) (the always fully omniscient one)...

God Bless!

We have the indwelling Holy Spirit also.
Christ does show us what God is really like, but we also have the whole Old Testament.
We are to become like Christ who is like God, but that takes free will.

 

[Loren T.]

No, I'm not actually, predetermining a thing, is not the same as controlling it, God doesn't control it per-say, he just merely knows and knew how it was all gonna be and go including all our choices, actions, decision making, all that, from before the beginning of time, or giving it all life...

My point was, "WE DON'T KNOW" (what he (God) knows) and is the "only reason why we still have some measure of choice in the matter", or, at least, should act and do and be as if we do, even if we really do not, there is simply no other way to go about it...

That was my point...

God Bless!

But that's not what you have consistently said in your replies. In your other replies, you say everything is God's will. This is not Biblical and if it were true, evil would be God's will. You talk like a Calvinist but then flip and appeal to foreknowledge. Which is it? If everything is God's will, (A Calvinist concept) then "evil" becomes a meaningless word, because evil is that which displeases God.

 

[SkyWriting]

The problems I see with a God who determines or made or predetermined and predestined "all" to the way it all is, all the time and always, and people to be who and what they are, all that, is: for one, how could he (God) judge or condemn someone for being bad, if that's the way he made them (to be)...? I answer that by saying that yes, he does make some bad people and bad seeds, and predestines some to go to hell even, and they did not have any choice in the matter, which makes him (God) responsible, right...?

Well, some are made for this fallen world and fallen time for the purpose of being a "standing example to us in the next life", as to what "not" to do, or how "not" to be, all that, what mistakes not to make, so we won't mess up the next life, where we will have to choice or option to... Cause there (in heaven) will we will have the option and choice of messing it up if we want to, just like in the beginning, the difference is we will have some experience as to what that choice to mess it up will do, and we have those created to be examples to and for us as to what not to do or how not to be... Anyway, we will be able to mess up heaven basically, but absolutely none of will ever choose to ever or anymore, or for forevermore... Partially due to the people who were made to be examples to and for us (who end up in hell, and who were made to go to be in hell)...

Now, that being said, the problem is, in this life here, we "don't know"... We "don't know" who is who, what is what, basically... So, we have to proceed based on that not knowing and not being able to know, (who's who, what's what, basically)... And the way we proceed based on not knowing is that everyone is "in question" as to where they stand with God, their salvation, (or going to hell) (all that) form our point of view or perspective... We just "don't know" where hardly anyone is or stands in that for sure... So, we have to, for one, first determine what is required to be saved or to be standing on the right side of things in the afterlife, and cause we generally don't know where anyone is or stands (with God) (or in the afterlife) for sure, we have determine what it is that determines that, and then try to make sure that we are on the right side and in right standing, and also, as many others as we can also...

Now God already knows, but we don't... In fact, he already predetermined, "all" long ago, but we do not get to have much insight into, or know much anything about that, (that he knows about), (till we get to the afterlife)...

Once we determine what will make us on the right side in the afterlife, we then need to tell others and help others be or wind up on the "right side" also... Problem is that their seems to be no solid black and white in this, and it usually depends on the heart of an individual, and individual by individual circumstances, that, we also, don't know much about most of the time, or do not have much insight into a lot of the time... Sure, some think there is a solid black and white, and think they know, but how often have they turned out to be so very wrong most of the time and have sinned greatly in doing so...?

We may be able to say that, for certain, in most cases, specific really terrible, horrible sins, in most cases (though maybe not absolutely all) unrepented of, or unchanged, will keep a person out of heaven and will land them in hell... On these things we might be able to judge and speak out against, done for the sake of trying to warn others and save them...

But, what are these... That's what we need to figure out I think, before we judge anything...

Anyway,

God Bless!

God knows the exact location and controls the course of each electron in the Cosmos.
And keeps them in existence for each moment.

 

[Ron Gurley]

God FOREKNOWS all...omniscience.
God spiritually irrevocably PRE-DESTINES nothing.
He gives Mankind the spiritual gift of "free will" to operate within His Sovreign perfect creative will.

 

[Neogaia777]

God FOREKNOWS all...omniscience.
God spiritually irrevocably PRE-DESTINES nothing.
He gives Mankind the spiritual gift of "free will" to operate within His Sovreign perfect creative will.

How's that work...?

Cause that doesn't make any sense at all...?

God Bless!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The problems I see with a God who determines or made or predetermined and predestined "all" to the way it all is, all the time and always, and people to be who and what they are, all that, is: for one, how could he (God) judge or condemn someone for being bad, if that's the way he made them (to be)...? I answer that by saying that yes, he does make some bad people and bad seeds, and predestines some to go to hell even, and they did not have any choice in the matter, which makes him (God) responsible, right...?

Well, some are made for this fallen world and fallen time for the purpose of being a "standing example to us in the next life", as to what "not" to do, or how "not" to be, all that, what mistakes not to make, so we won't mess up the next life, where we will have to choice or option to... Cause there (in heaven) will we will have the option and choice of messing it up if we want to, just like in the beginning, the difference is we will have some experience as to what that choice to mess it up will do, and we have those created to be examples to and for us as to what not to do or how not to be... Anyway, we will be able to mess up heaven basically, but absolutely none of will ever choose to ever or anymore, or for forevermore... Partially due to the people who were made to be examples to and for us (who end up in hell, and who were made to go to be in hell)...

Now, that being said, the problem is, in this life here, we "don't know"... We "don't know" who is who, what is what, basically... So, we have to proceed based on that not knowing and not being able to know, (who's who, what's what, basically)... And the way we proceed based on not knowing is that everyone is "in question" as to where they stand with God, their salvation, (or going to hell) (all that) form our point of view or perspective... We just "don't know" where hardly anyone is or stands in that for sure... So, we have to, for one, first determine what is required to be saved or to be standing on the right side of things in the afterlife, and cause we generally don't know where anyone is or stands (with God) (or in the afterlife) for sure, we have determine what it is that determines that, and then try to make sure that we are on the right side and in right standing, and also, as many others as we can also...

Now God already knows, but we don't... In fact, he already predetermined, "all" long ago, but we do not get to have much insight into, or know much anything about that, (that he knows about), (till we get to the afterlife)...

Once we determine what will make us on the right side in the afterlife, we then need to tell others and help others be or wind up on the "right side" also... Problem is that their seems to be no solid black and white in this, and it usually depends on the heart of an individual, and individual by individual circumstances, that, we also, don't know much about most of the time, or do not have much insight into a lot of the time... Sure, some think there is a solid black and white, and think they know, but how often have they turned out to be so very wrong most of the time and have sinned greatly in doing so...?

We may be able to say that, for certain, in most cases, specific really terrible, horrible sins, in most cases (though maybe not absolutely all) unrepented of, or unchanged, will keep a person out of heaven and will land them in hell... On these things we might be able to judge and speak out against, done for the sake of trying to warn others and save them...

But, what are these... That's what we need to figure out I think, before we judge anything...

Anyway,

God Bless!

The Bible does not deal with this exhaustively. There is a lot we don't know about how God works. This is because we are finite and God is infinite. So finite man would never be able to know the full story about the ways of God. But what we do know is that God, being infinite, knows the infinite possibilities that would result from the choices of people. He has given the general invitation to all men and women to accept the gospel and receive Jesus as Saviour. He know what will happen for those who decide for Jesus and what will happen for those who reject Jesus. That's all we have to know. To try and plumb the full depths of God's predestination is impossible because there are great areas of infinite knowledge that we will never be able to access. Even when we are with Him in heaven, we will never know everything about God, because we will still always be finite, while God is infinite. We can continue learning about God for the rest of eternity, and no matter how long we learn, there will always be an infinite amount of knowledge about God to learn. So let's stop banging our heads against a brick wall trying to figure out stuff that belongs in the infinite knowledge of God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The point is when you or anyone else talk about God having a past or future time you ignoring the existence of God in both the past and future at the same time (being outside of time).
God's future is like history for us (we cannot change history [the free will decisions made in the past cannot be changed], yet they can still be free will choices).

God knows what happened in our future like it is history for Him, but that does not mean we did not make free will choices.

It is not like we have future choices to be made for God, but we have made those choices as far as God is concerned.

You might think about it like this: God at the end of man's time knows historically all the free will choices man made throughout time and provides that information to Himself at the beginning of man's time, so God at the beginning of time knows all man's free will choices, which did not prevent man from making those choices throughout man's time.

Ok, now take that one step further. If God is outside time (a phrase to help us think --not necessarily accurate --I think it is more fitting to say that being the inventor of time, he is not subject to time, except where he subjects himself to time), and all time is a mere spoken word, then what we complain is taking so long is nothing. People complain God could have simply made us obedient, instead of going through all this mess, or better yet, he could have simply made Heaven, and populated it. So I respond, He did.

There are many strange (to us moderns) constructions in the Bible, (such as when Christ said, "it is finished", because it was. Yet (Hebrews 2:8) WE don't see it that way, because we are locked into this mindset, and can't think without sequence of events.)

I find it amazing that God works in the seemingly weakest of ways. He takes the most mundane things to accomplish the greatest spiritual fact. This is a huge, long subject, so I'll leave it at saying, he does nothing that goes to waste.

 

[bling]

Ok, now take that one step further. If God is outside time (a phrase to help us think --not necessarily accurate --I think it is more fitting to say that being the inventor of time, he is not subject to time, except where he subjects himself to time), and all time is a mere spoken word, then what we complain is taking so long is nothing. People complain God could have simply made us obedient, instead of going through all this mess, or better yet, he could have simply made Heaven, and populated it. So I respond, He did.

There are many strange (to us moderns) constructions in the Bible, (such as when Christ said, "it is finished", because it was. Yet (Hebrews 2:8) WE don't see it that way, because we are locked into this mindset, and can't think without sequence of events.)

I find it amazing that God works in the seemingly weakest of ways. He takes the most mundane things to accomplish the greatest spiritual fact. This is a huge, long subject, so I'll leave it at saying, he does nothing that goes to waste.

I like you do not know how it really works. God could have His own sequencing of events in the spiritual realm. We are speculating but there are a few things we might need to think about:

1. God knowing everything and man’s free will. God existing simultaneously at all times would allow man to have free will and God to know everything. God of today would only have to communicate back to Himself at the beginning of time and not really have to travel back in time.

2. Free will is needed to fulfill man’s earthly objective, so time is not something God needs to see who will be saved, but something man needs to fulfill his objective.

3. Time on earth is not for God to make some choice, but for man to have a place to truly make an autonomous free will choice to accept God’s forgiveness or reject God’s forgiveness. The choice has to be with likely alternatives or it is not a real choice, so man can chose to wimp out, give up and surrender or be macho hang in there, pay the piper and accept his deserved punishment. The perceived pleasures of sin here on earth for a season over humbly accepting pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

4. This free will choice would be impossible to make in heaven since your already in heaven, satan has gone on before us, we would have no experience with sin or forgiveness, and the Spirit is visible to us in heaven. There are other things going on also, making time on earth necessary.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I can't agree with your use of "free will", bling You make a good point for choice, but I don't refer to "free" the way you do. I agree we have responsible choice, but we are not free --we are all slaves to something. Only in Christ are we free but even then not sovereign agents. We are his servants, and allowed to choose to obey.

The Bible doesn't pretend to use "fee will" the way I hear you doing it. But beyond that I think there is much good to think about in what you say, and I will have to digest it some more.

Thanks. I have enjoyed your post.