The problem with "Every man is a potential rapist"

[smithed64]

If I don't have any desire to do something I don't have the capacity to do it. And if I don't have the capacity to do it, I'm not capable of doing it.

But I don't see a reason to bring up semantics if the end result is the same.

I guess your definition of capable is much different that the dictionary.

We are capable of anything. Unless your a half glass empty type of person. In that case. You would say, you weren't capable of anything.

If you don't have the desire to do something, just means you just don't want to do it...not that your not capable to do it.

You desire to date this beautiful woman you know, but you don't. Why?
Is it because you think your not capable to do so. Even though you are healthy, work for a living, clean cut, child of God. That sounds pretty capable to me.
Or is it because your afraid? Fear is a killer of capability. It stops us in our tracks from doing something, many times. Your still capable to ask her..but fear stops you.

capability is not lead by an emotion...it's an action to the emotion
desire is lead by emotion

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I guess your definition of capable is much different that the dictionary.

I would counter that it's you that's not using the word correctly.

We are capable of anything. Unless your a half glass empty type of person. In that case. You would say, you weren't capable of anything.

It's demonstrably true that we're not capable of anything. There's a seemingly unlimited number of things that humans can't do.

If you don't have the desire to do something, just means you just don't want to do it...not that your not capable to do it.

No, if I don't desire to do something, it means that I'm not going to do it. It means that I'm not "predisposed to; inclined to" as your definition of "capable" pointed out.

 

[Dave-W]

It's demonstrably true that we're not capable of anything. There's a seemingly unlimited number of things that humans can't do.

Wanton depraved acts of evil not among them.

Jer 17.9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Wanton depraved acts of evil not among them.

Jer 17.9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?

I don't know what kinds of people you know, but that definitely doesn't fit the bill with me...

 

[smithed64]

I would counter that it's you that's not using the word correctly.

Nope, not that.

It's demonstrably true that we're not capable of anything. There's a seemingly unlimited number of things that humans can't do.

I didn't say we were capable to do everything.
Just anything we do we are capable to do it. Yes we can strive to do more and many have.
And yes there are limits. But your still capable to reach those limits.

No, if I don't desire to do something, it means that I'm not going to do it. It means that I'm not "predisposed to; inclined to" as your definition of "capable" pointed out.

predisposed - to cause (someone) to be more likely to behave in a particular way or to be affected by a particular condition

Like someone can be predisposed to be snarky.
or someone is predisposed to be snarky because he or she doesn't like the definitions given.

inclined - wanting to do something or likely to do something

Like Someone can be inclined to argue even though the facts show differently that his/her opinion shows.
or Someone will be inclined to lose his/her temper when things don't go their way.

capable - able to do something : having the qualities or abilities that are needed to do something

Like Someone is capable of being a rapists
or The man or woman shows the ability to be able to be a rapist.

Okay, gave you websters definition of all those words.

Nothing shows desire.

desire - to want or wish for (something) : to feel desire for (something)

desire is an emotion.
being capable is an action.
You either desire to do something.
or you wish to do something
or you feel like doing something.

you can be both though

You can desire to be capable to do something.
or
You can be capable to desire something.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Nope, not that.

Yes, that.

I didn't say we were capable to do everything.

You said:

"We are capable of anything."

Which is demonstrably false.

Just anything we do we are capable to do it.

Yes, we are capable of doing the things that we do. That's not really news to anyone, or pertinent to the discussion.

predisposed - to cause (someone) to be more likely to behave in a particular way or to be affected by a particular condition

Like someone can be predisposed to be snarky.
or someone is predisposed to be snarky because he or she doesn't like the definitions given.

inclined - wanting to do something or likely to do something

Like Someone can be inclined to argue even though the facts show differently that his/her opinion shows.
or Someone will be inclined to lose his/her temper when things don't go their way.

capable - able to do something : having the qualities or abilities that are needed to do something

Like Someone is capable of being a rapists
or The man or woman shows the ability to be able to be a rapist.

Okay, gave you websters definition of all those words.

Nothing shows desire.

desire - to want or wish for (something) : to feel desire for (something)

desire is an emotion.
being capable is an action.
You either desire to do something.
or you wish to do something
or you feel like doing something.

you can be both though

You can desire to be capable to do something.
or
You can be capable to desire something.[/QUOTE]

Semantic ramblings aside. I don't desire to rape anyone. And since all my actions are necessarily dictated by my desires, I'm incapable of raping anyone.

This really is simple if you take the time to think about it...

 

[smithed64]

Yes, that.



You said:

"We are capable of anything."

Which is demonstrably false.



Yes, we are capable of doing the things that we do. That's not really news to anyone, or pertinent to the discussion.

predisposed - to cause (someone) to be more likely to behave in a particular way or to be affected by a particular condition

Like someone can be predisposed to be snarky.
or someone is predisposed to be snarky because he or she doesn't like the definitions given.

inclined - wanting to do something or likely to do something

Like Someone can be inclined to argue even though the facts show differently that his/her opinion shows.
or Someone will be inclined to lose his/her temper when things don't go their way.

capable - able to do something : having the qualities or abilities that are needed to do something

Like Someone is capable of being a rapists
or The man or woman shows the ability to be able to be a rapist.

Okay, gave you websters definition of all those words.

Nothing shows desire.

desire - to want or wish for (something) : to feel desire for (something)

desire is an emotion.
being capable is an action.
You either desire to do something.
or you wish to do something
or you feel like doing something.

you can be both though

You can desire to be capable to do something.
or
You can be capable to desire something.

Semantic ramblings aside. I don't desire to rape anyone. And since all my actions are necessarily dictated by my desires, I'm incapable of raping anyone.

This really is simple if you take the time to think about it...[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm extremely glad you don't desire to do so. Neither do I.

Because of sin, and the fallen world. we are all capable to stand with Christ and obey his commands or to stand with the world and follow it's sinful ways.

Which way you choose is up to you. Me and my house choose to serve the Lord.

The study of words is very important when it comes to studying the bible.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Well, I'm extremely glad you don't desire to do so. Neither do I.

Excellent!

Because of sin, and the fallen world. we are all capable to stand with Christ and obey his commands or to stand with the world and follow it's sinful ways.

I guess that the only difference between the two of us is that I recognize a third option. To use empathy and logic and strive to reduce the suffering in the world without relying on any commands from deities.

Hopefully the different approaches have the same result.

 

[smithed64]

Excellent!



I guess that the only difference between the two of us is that I recognize a third option. To use empathy and logic and strive to reduce the suffering in the world without relying on any commands from deities.

Hopefully the different approaches have the same result.

It won't work. God is extremely logical He created logic. Because of His Absolute attributes. The way of man thinks He is right, but it is the way to death.

Can you truly share someones feelings when you haven't been through exactly what they have gone thru. No, you can't.

And it's not about feelings. It's about what is true. God is absolute truth and He loves us absolutely, he is absolutely just and He will judge absolute.

Only one ever to know exactly what you have been thru is Christ. He carried our burdens on His shoulders, our sickness on His back and our sins to the cross. He and Him alone knows what we go thru. Because He is God, who is omnipotent, omniscience and omnipresent.

Man is sinful, fallen and deserves Hell. Because of those sins that are in our lives. If you have lied, your a liar, if you've stolen, your a thief, if you've looked at someone with lust your and adulterer at heart. God knows everything you do and your intentions.

If you have broke His commandments, you will be judged and sent to Hell for breaking them. They are His laws and He is the judge.

There is only one way to clean up. You can't do it. Not by works, empathy, logic or any other way.

You have to repent (to turn away) turn away from your sins, come to Him knowing you are a sinner and that you've sinned directly against Him. That every time you sin you stack wrath against you with God. Repent and trust in Christ to be your Savior.

If you don't know what to do or how to. Read Psalms 51. David gives an excellent example on how to repent.

Once you have repented then you will be saved. Christ tells us that if we come to HIm, he is just and righteous to save us.

You may ask, How can he?
We broke God's laws. Jesus paid our fine. If you will repent and trust in the Savior, God will forgive your sins and dismiss your case. Because He is the final judge and He has the authority to do so.

The only way to change mankind....is thru Christ.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

It won't work. God is extremely logical He created logic. Because of His Absolute attributes. The way of man thinks He is right, but it is the way to death.

Really? I don't steal, or murder, or rape or etc. etc. I'm not a bigot or a homophobe. I give to charity. And I don't believe in a god.

Most of my friends are atheists, and they don't do those things either.

But I see Christians doing those things, while believing in a god at the time and repenting later.

So who leaves the world in a better state?

As for Christianity, I've been there. Finally realized I didn't have a good reason to believe.

 

[smithed64]

Really? I don't steal, or murder, or rape or etc. etc. I'm not a bigot or a homophobe. I give to charity. And I don't believe in a god.

Most of my friends are atheists, and they don't do those things either.

But I see Christians doing those things, while believing in a god at the time and repenting later.

So who leaves the world in a better state?

As for Christianity, I've been there. Finally realized I didn't have a good reason to believe.

Man doesn't leave the world in a better state, no matter who it is. We are fallen and depraved.

Those who say they are Christians and live in sin,,,,aren't Christians.

Did you come to Christ with the wrong motives. Most likely wasn't your fault. You were probably to you needed to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and if you did you would receive love, joy, peace and lasting happiness - That's the wrong motive, no wonder you fell away. Being likened as a stoney ground hearer, receiving the word with joy and gladness but not having roots enough to stand. Having put on the Savior in an experimental manner to see if the claims are true. Then, when the promised persecution and tribulation came you fell away from it.

I noticed you didn't say you don't lie.

If God were to judge you by the ten commandments, because you broke one, you break them all. Would you go to Heaven or Hell?

Doesn't matter if you believe in it or not. If judgment did come and you were judged for breaking the thou shalt not lie law. You are a transgressor of God's law a sinner and will be judged, if God judges by those laws.

Would you go to Heaven or Hell?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Man doesn't leave the world in a better state, no matter who it is. We are fallen and depraved.

So a serial killer who tortures and kills people leaves the world in the same state as someone who devotes their life to charity? So to a Christian torturing and killing is the same as charity...

Odd religion you have there...

Those who say they are Christians and live in sin,,,,aren't Christians.

So Christians can't be Christians if they sin, even after they repent? That's not what I was taught...

Did you come to Christ with the wrong motives. Most likely wasn't your fault. You were probably to you needed to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and if you did you would receive love, joy, peace and lasting happiness - That's the wrong motive, no wonder you fell away. Being likened as a stoney ground hearer, receiving the word with joy and gladness but not having roots enough to stand. Having put on the Savior in an experimental manner to see if the claims are true. Then, when the promised persecution and tribulation came you fell away from it.

I probably wasn't clear... I don't believe in a god now because I don't have a reason to believe in a god.

If God were to judge you by the ten commandments, because you broke one, you break them all. Would you go to Heaven or Hell?

Doesn't matter if you believe in it or not. If judgment did come and you were judged for breaking the thou shalt not lie law. You are a transgressor of God's law a sinner and will be judged, if God judges by those laws.

Would you go to Heaven or Hell?

Hell of course. Similarly, if a different god exists we both might end up in that hell, depending on the tenets of that religion.

 

[Armoured]

In those jurisdictions the crime goes under a more proper name like "Criminal Sexual Conduct. "

There are jurisdictions where "rape" is literally an offence that women are legally unable to be found guilty of, while men are.

 

[Radrook]

Since Rape is the imposition of involuntary sexual participation on another human being then we can consider all slave owners under the Roman Empire who imposed themselves on their female slaves as rapists. They might not have felt that way, but technically they were. That includes the medieval practice of prima note illustrated in the film Braveheart where the Lord of the manor reserved to himself the first nuptial intimacies with any maiden recently married.

It is easy for us who are not in power to condemn such acts as atrocious. But please keep in mind that David observing Bath Sheba bathing in all her feminine glory was assailed by a temptation uncommon to the majority of men who lacked the authority to have her at his call and beck with merely a command. Would we have had more fortitude under the same situation?

 

[Kylie]

Okay, so there are some opinions that are held by men, as a result of their male sex?

What would those opinions be?

And what would be the conclusion if my opinions differed from "opinions of men", would that mean:

A) I'm not a man.
or
B) Those said opinions need better definition than "opinions of men"?

What?

Okay, let me spell it out for you. A women makes the comment that there is a lot of sexism in the gaming community. As a result, she is threatened with death and told that she deserves to be raped. These threats come primarily from men (I'm not aware of any women making the threats against her). Don't tell me it doesn't happen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy

Why do we never see women making similar threats against men like this?

 

[Kylie]

I agree with that.

That's something.

Not necessarily so. The definition of the word "rape" involves penetration on the part of the assailant.

They are a victim, but NOT of rape if there is no penetration by the perp. I am not sure what it is called in various jurisdictions but in Michigan it is called "Criminal Sexual Conduct."

That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

If a woman drugs a man, then, while he is unconscious, stimulates him so he gets an erection, then gets on top of him so his penis is in her vagina - you don't think that is rape?

It boils down to what the word "rape" means. It is from the name of the sword the Rapier. (often used for fencing duels) Originally to be raped was to be run thru by the sword.

You (or me or anyone else for that matter) cannot just assign some other definition to a word and run with it.

I'm not.

Merriam-Webster defines it as: "unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rape

There's nothing there about it only applying to a person who is penetrated against their will.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines it as: "The crime, typically committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with the offender against their will." https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/rape

Again, nothing there about needing to be penetrated before you are a victim.

In your case the man is a victim of Criminal Sexual Conduct, not rape.

And once again we see that the legal system is messed up.

 

[Kylie]

And this is a real problem. It's a mistake, though, to conflate "men are more likely to use rape threats as a rhetorical device" with "ALL men are more likely to use rape threats as a rhetorical device".

I certainly don't think that EVERY man is going to commit rape if pushed.

However, I do think that I have to be ready to defend myself, because I can never tell if a particular man is the kind of man who will rape me if he has the opportunity and motive.

I was heading to work today, and I caught the lift at my local train station. A man also got in the lift. I found myself preparing to use my bag as a weapon if he tried anything. Not actually getting into a ready-to-attack stance, but I was aware of what he was doing and watching for any signs of threatening behaviour. And this is something I do often, particularly when alone.

Somehow, I get the feeling that men don't need to do this if they are alone in a lift with a woman. But do you do it if you were alone in the lift with another man?

 

[Kylie]

Again, what percentage of a crime must be committed by one group to justify profiling of that group entire? 90%? 80%? 75%? When does bigotry magically become pure-as-the-driven-snow-unbigoted common sense, according to you?

You're a skeptic right? Present your objective evidence to justify your bigoted stereotype, please.

(it's also not 90%, as I indicated with my post on the CDC figures, which is another reason why this sort of stereotyping horse pucky is dangerous)

Wow, now I think you're just being a jerk.

When a quarter of women will be raped, and there's a 90% chance that rape will be committed by a man, don't you think that women are entitled to be cautious?

 

[Armoured]

It is from the name of the sword the Rapier. (often used for fencing duels) Originally to be raped was to be run thru by the sword.

There's this whole thing called "etymology". Seriously, look into it some time."Rape" is from the same root as "raptor", and both pertain to taking something by force.

"Rapier" is a joke about what the hilt of the sword looked like, and comes from the French "râpe" or "rasp" because people thought the hilt looked like a grater. There is absolutely no link between the two, and neither has any derivation of meaning from being run through or penetrated.

Your little throw away explanation might work in many settings, but word history and swords are two of my pet subjects, and I come from a long line of pedants.

 

[Paidiske]

Etymology online gives this:

rape (n.1)
early 14c., "booty, prey;" mid-14c., "forceful seizure; plundering, robbery, extortion," from Anglo-French rap, rape, and directly from Latin rapere "seize" (see rape (v.)). Meaning "act of abducting a woman or sexually violating her or both" is from early 15c., but perhaps late 13c. in Anglo-Latin.

rape (v.)
late 14c., "seize prey; abduct, take by force," from rape (n.) and from Anglo-French raper (Old French rapir) "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from past participle of Latin rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid).

Latin rapere was used for "sexually violate," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprare "to defile, ravish, violate," related to stuprum (n.), literally "disgrace." Meaning "to abduct (a woman), ravish;" also "seduce (a man)" is from early 15c. in English. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low German and Dutch rapen in the same sense.