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The problem with Creation Science

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Vance

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Science, when done correctly, derives its concepts and theories *from* the data and evidence it finds.

Creation "Science" starts with a preconceived concept or theory and then goes and looks for data and evidence to support it.

Of course, when you go specifically looking for something to support your theory, and you are willing to analyze every evidence in the light most favorable to your theory, you will definitely find some bits and pieces here and there which seem to support your theory. You can even develop a form of "model" based on these bits and pieces which, when combined with your preconceived theory, sounds convincing to those who want to be convinced (but to no one else).

YEC’s will insist that science also starts with preconceived concepts, such as the basic tenets of evolution, or of gravity, or hundreds of other building blocks upon which they do their current work. And, to an extent, this is true. But there are a few major differences:

1. These theories or concepts first arose *from* the physical evidence and data. YEC’ist preconceptions arose from a particular reading of Scripture (and one that *only* YEC’s accept).

2. The entire scientific community is set up to encourage challenges and criticisms of theories and concepts. The YEC community states right up front that their preconceived starting points (an old earth, some limitation on God’s ability to create through evolution) are not up for debate.

3. Scientific theories will be abandoned if and when there is sufficient evidence and cogent analysis which shows that it can not be true. In short, the scientific community will go wherever the overwhelming evidence leads them, even if the path is not what they expected or if it upsets their comfort zones. The YEC community has placed a very specific line where they will not go, no matter what the evidence says.

HERE IS THE KICKER: if we took some intelligent investigators and magically took away all the preconceived ideas, simply wiped them out of their brains, then presented them with the world as it is, they would eventually come up with what science tells us now, or something very much like it. They would NEVER, EVER, come up with any theory which has been presented by a Creation "Scientist". An objective, independent view of our earth and universe would never come up with a global flood, a young earth, etc, etc.

So, in reality, the scientific community, as a whole, is seeking for truth about the natural world. The YEC community is seeking for support. Thus, Creation Science is apologetics, not science.
 

Biliskner

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Vance said:
Well, I didn't expect a substantive answer, really, but I thought you guys should have a chance to state your position. I guess you have nothing to add?

oh actually i do.

http://www.grisda.org/origins/21005.htm

but I guess TE wins, whatever the case. :bow:
 
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Vance

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SBG said:
Yeah, the Bible and its teachings apparently are not substantive.

No, the Bible is incredibly substantive. It is only Creationism which is not. The problem with taking a figurative text and trying to read it literally is that you de-emphasize the deeper and more substantive meaning by focusing on the shallow, and most likely false, reading.

This is another thing Augustine warned specifically against: he said it is dangerous to read figurative texts literally.
 
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Vance

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SBG said:
He equally said it is dangerous to take a literal text and read it figuratively.

Do you have that quote handy?

I think this is very true, however. We MUST strive to find out how to properly read each text, and not start with some sort of default of literalism as a matter of course unless it is shown to be obviously otherwise.
 
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Vance

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No, it does NOT argue at all against allowing the true evidence from science to influence your reading of Scripture. He specifically says that we SHOULD do this. What he says there is a danger to the weak of faith when they listen to atheistic presentations of science. This has nothing to do with evolution and an old earth in and of themselves, but only a teaching of such science that is atheistic.
 
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On the Narrow Road

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Time for my 2 cents worth. First, I am not a YEC as you put it, however I see some flaws with the belief's posted by the OP. Sure scientific concepts generally arise from physical evidence and data...yet many theories exist today which have a substantial amount of evidence against them. Then these theories are used to try to explain new, contradictory evidence. So the model/theory changes, when it should be scrapped and new theories investigated taking into account all the evidence. So in answer to your numbered items:

1) Science observes (flawed or not), proposes theory. Theory is then used to explain phenomenon, even when it doesn't work. New evidence is sought to prop up old theory. So science also has preconceptions. Big bang proponants look for evidence of the big bang...creationists look for evidence of creation. Seems everyone has there own theory and is trying to support it. Feel free to search for evidence against the big bang or a number of other theories, it's there. Don't ask me for links. I've done my research and the jury is out on the young vs. old earth argument. Could be a version of the Gap theory for all I know.

2) This premise is a total falsehood. The entire scientific community is set up to squash the opposition. At least the YEC are honost about there starting points. If you have a discenting opinion in science, you have a hard time getting papers published, funding, etc. Generally, you are ostracized.

3) Theories are rarely abandonded in science. Rather than go where the overwhelming evidence leads them, scientists try to explain away contrary evidence to save their theory, their funding, and their reputations. I do however agree that YEC have drawn a line in the sand and will not cross it no matter the evidence. Seems a lot of evolustionsist (ie. "scientists") do the same thing. How much of the evidence for evolution has proven fradulent??? How many times has evidence been dismissed, mis-interpreted, or hidden in order to support a crumbling theory? So both sides draw lines. I've also seen some realling convincing arguments that proclaim that evolutionism is a religion, not a science...

Now about that KICKER: Independent, naive investigators with no preconceptions... Hmm, they see a house, do some investigation and come to one of two conclusions: House built by man....or house evolved from tree? Note that in their investigation, a lot would depend on the amount of knowledge they have gained to that point. The less knowledge they have, the more they assume the house evolved from a tree. The more knowledge, and evidence, the more they believe the house to be built by man. It involves intelligent design, just as this world does. The only question is whether or not we have gained enough knowledge to accurately say the earth is old or young.

I, for one, think man is full of himself and I'm a little sick the debate. Science will continue to evolve (unlike life which only features adaptations already coded in it's genes, not creating new species, etc.) and likely find that it back's up the Bible 100%. So the question is whether or not we as humans have an advanced enough understanding or science or if we are missing something in our intrepretation of God's word.

In the interim, as we try to find the Truth, I will trust in the central message of the Bible and not worry so much about these minor details...which continue to change as we learn more about science. In closing:
Psalm 118:8 (King James Version)



8It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

I find it more likely that man is fallable than God. So, while the YEC is seeking support, as you say...I might say they are looking for evidence to back up a belief. Wait, science does that too. Dang, I'm going to confuse myself, which one is apologetics again?
 
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PaladinValer

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YECism is honest? How many times have I noticed a YEC misuse the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics? Or perhaps say that the theory of evolution says that humanity came from apes? That's honesty? If so, then I may as well chuck out the passages in the Bible where it says "do not falsely accuse your neighbor."
 
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