The Problem with Carnal Christians

[GodsChild07]

I think some of you would rather argue than grow. This has turned into a free-for-all. Personally, I think you are all carnal.

The real question should be: "Which of you are still carnal, and, for those who are, what are you going to do about it?"

 

[DevotiontoBible]

I think some of you would rather argue than grow. This has turned into a free-for-all. Personally, I think you are all carnal.

The real question should be: "Which of you are still carnal, and, for those who are, what are you going to do about it?"

Paul tells us that a person who is a slave to sin is carnal and that is not me: Romans 7:14 (KJV)
.".. but I am carnal, sold under sin."
I am a Christian and that means I do not have sin as my master Romans 6:6 (NLT)
"... We are no longer slaves to sin."

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Can you show me where I said this please?

What I said was


I don't appreciate your mocking tone, and your circles that you continue to talk in refusing to listen to what I've said, so I'm done. I will not respond to you on this any further, God Bless.

I am not mocking you to repeat what you are saying. We are not told to cry about our sinful practices we are told to not do them. Romans 6:12-13 (NLT)
Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to its lustful desires. [13] Do not let any part of your body become a tool of wickedness, to be used for sinning. Instead, give yourselves completely to God since you have been given new life. And use your whole body as a tool to do what is right for the glory of God.

 

[GodsChild07]

Paul tells us that a person who is a slave to sin is carnal and that is not me: Romans 7:14 (KJV)
.".. but I am carnal, sold under sin."
I am a Christian and that means I do not have sin as my master Romans 6:6 (NLT)
"... We are no longer slaves to sin."

As long as you are carnal (if you are carnal), you remain a slave to sin, because your instincts are driving you. Being a Christian, or even being Born Again, does not remove your carnality.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think we need to get back to how the New Testament describes Christians in their different stages of development.

I objected to using the word 'carnal' as a description because it has so often been used as a judgemental way of describing believers that we don't agree with, or who don't belong to our particular denomination, or who don't quite measure up to our legalistic standard of morals or spirituality.

To me, the New Testament definition of 'carnal' is:
Being of the world, thinking like a worldly person, being under the domination of worldly lusts and desires, basically being an unbeliever.

But that doesn't solve the problem of how we describe true believers in their different stages of growth and maturity.

[Sorry. I'm being called away] I will be back later.

 

[JimfromOhio]

As I mentioned in another thread similar topic to this one. Carnal person is a Christian who still has self on the throne (selfishness). Christ is still in there somewhere, running around, but He is not in charge, and the life is still in chaos. There's no Lordship. For a Spiritual Christian, Self is off the throne (self-less), Christ is on it, and the life is all in order.

 

[GodsChild07]

As I mentioned in another thread similar topic to this one. Carnal person is a Christian who still has self on the throne (selfishness). Christ is still in there somewhere, running around, but He is not in charge, and the life is still in chaos. There's no Lordship. For a Spiritual Christian, Self is off the throne (self-less), Christ is on it, and the life is all in order.

And that is the perfect, and simple, description.

 

[iceflower]

For anyone who's interested i just watched True and False Conversion by Ray Comfort which may go some way to explain how the church ends up with 'carnal Christians' or non-Christians going to church.

I watched it today and it explained that the stony ground of the heart of the person hasn't been 'ploughed up' thoroughly (by hearing the Law - The Ten Commandments) to receive the seed of the gospel - so they may only have shallow roots. In other words they haven't really repented.

I got hold of it at www.wayofthemaster.com and found some of the teaching excellent as it encourages each of us to examine ourselves to see if we are fruit-bearing Christians and, if not, to repent.

I realise there is some dispute over what a carnal Christian is, but as this teaching refers to Christians who don't bear fruit thought it might help.

 

[GodsChild07]

For anyone who's interested i just watched True and False Conversion by Ray Comfort which may go some way to explain how the church ends up with 'carnal Christians' or non-Christians going to church.

I watched it today and it explained that the stony ground of the heart of the person hasn't been 'ploughed up' thoroughly (by hearing the Law - The Ten Commandments) to receive the seed of the gospel - so they may only have shallow roots. In other words they haven't really repented.

I got hold of it at www.wayofthemaster.com and found some of the teaching excellent as it encourages each of us to examine ourselves to see if we are fruit-bearing Christians and, if not, to repent.

I realise there is some dispute over what a carnal Christian is, but as this teaching refers to Christians who don't bear fruit thought it might help.

Um, that's not it at all.

 

[murjahel]

Unfortunately,
not all who accept the Lord as Savior
will stay faithful.

Some will move forward in Christ and live a godly life.

Some will live a life of battling against the flesh and often lose the battle.

Some will battle the devil and make the enemy regret their salvation greatly.

One thing is certain,
every saint will face temptation.

Even Jesus went into the wilderness, where the devil tempted Him.

The 'temptation' is not sin...
yet, the devil would not bother tempting
if there were not possibility of us sinning...

The only sin that re-damns
the soul is rejection of Jesus...
and before we do that,
there can be other sins,
in the lives of 'saints'...

doubt, fear, gossip,
anger, etc... creep into the lives
of Christians, and at that point,
they are 'carnal'...

The thief on the cross,
was tempted through the vile statements
of the other thief
in the moments before their deaths.

We, as Christians, have two sides
from which to choose.

It would be nice if the choice was made final in the moment of salvation... but it is not.

We must choose between God and the devil on a nearly daily basis.

The tempter, the devil, is the arch-enemy of God.
The idea of a personal devil is often ridiculed.
Satan is not a being with horns and a pitchfork...
He is an angel of light, one of the former arch-angels of God.
He rebelled against God long ago.
He is a real personality. He walks, speaks, thinks, rules... He has been given many names... the devil, Satan, Lucifer, Beelzebub, the Wicked One, etc,

Satan is still subservient, and can do only what God allows. He is not omnipresent (everywhere present). He uses many other fallen angels, and demonic spirits to aid his evil plans. He is not omniscient (all-knowing), but he is wily. He is not omnipotent (all-powerful), but he is too strong for us to conquer without Jesus. He is our enemy... He works against Christians.

This devil will encourage the fleshly nature of Christians to return to its dominance over the spirit of man that yielded to God's Spirit at the moment of salvation.

This encouragement to sin is called TEMPTATION.

We, as Christians, will need to battle temptation often.

There is a way of escape.
God promises to give us power over temptation, and be able to overcome. Jesus faithfully makes sure we can win.

I Corinthians 10:13
"God is faithful,
Who will not suffer you to be tempted above
that ye are able,
but will with the temptation, make a way of escape."

God does expect us to avail ourselves of the resources that He has offered. If we fail to put on the armor of God, we contribute to our own defeat.

Ephesians 6:11
"Put on the whole armor of God,
that ye may be able to stand
against the wiles of the devil."

Also, God has instructed us to "watch and pray".

"Watch" comes from the Greek word - "gregoreo" which means "to stay awake, to stay alert."

We need to be on guard against temptation.
We need to stay awake spiritually.
When temptation enters your mind, you need enough spiritual awareness,
that you know to start praying.

Pray for victory, fight with the Word of God...

Fear sin! Hate sin!
Hate the thought of being brought
back down into the despair
of being defeated by the devil.

Chrysostom, a fourth century Christian, said,
"I fear nothing but sin."

We too need to stay alert to the possibility of sinning.

When tempted and held by Potiphar's wife,
Joseph fled quickly from her.
He ran from temptation,
and didn't give it a chance.

Yielding, even momentarily,
into the temptation,
is carnality..

it is letting the flesh rule,
not letting God rule...

​

 

[murjahel]

Hebrews 12:1
"...let us lay aside every weight,
and the sin that doth so easily beset us..."

All of us are weaker in one area than another. In some, it is their temper. In others, it is depression. In some, it is a sinful habit. Whatever it is, the devil makes it his business to know it better than we do. We even try to hide it from ourselves. We give it pretty names. We look for reasons to excuse it. We find therefore, that this is the sin that "easily" trips us up.

Your besetting sin is the one for which you don't want reproved. It is the sin that you are most ready to defend. It is the sin that causes you to doubt your acceptance by God. It is the sin you are most unwilling to admit that you possess. It is the sin that you are most unwilling to give up. It is the sin that you are trying to persuade yourself is an infirmity. It is the sin that you must put aside in order to enjoy your salvation.

Besetting sins are a great danger for the Christian. They will keep you from moving forward in your walk and relationship with Jesus. They will take the place of God in your life. They will keep your walk inconsistent, and therefore keep you from any spiritual victories.

Besetting sins will keep your prayers from being answered. They will bring you trouble and sorrow. They will be a stumblingblock to others. The besetting sins will grieve the Holy Spirit's work in your life. These sins will make you lose much of your reward.

Hebrews 12 tells us to "lay aside" these sins. Besides the besetting sins, we are to also "lay aside" the "weight". This is the word "agkos" in the Greek. It means "bulk, mass", and refers to things that are not in themselves "sin" but that drag us down to be less resistant to sin. The Bible talks about "lasciviousness". Lasciviousness is something that is not sin in itself, but when allowed will bring us to a place that makes it easy for us to yield to sin. Lasciviousness is therefore different for different people. For a former alcoholic, it may be just walking past the bar. To a former drug addict, it may be coffee with caffeine. To others, these things are not sinful.

There is often a need for Christians to therefore "fence" around the sin that easily besets them. By building a fence around that sin, and shutting out the possibility to yield to it, the Christian will be less likely to fall again in that temptation.
This is taught in principle by Jesus in Matthew 5:29-30.

"If your hand offend you, cut it off...
eye... pluck it out..."

Identify the things that lead you to times of failure in your besetting sins. Stay as far away from that sin as you can. If you are tempted to acts of violence and temper, why listen to people who are angry, or why watch movies that condone violence and anger? If one is tempted to stray from faithfulness to a mate, why frequent places where others will encourage such unfaithfulness? Why would such a person want to read magazines with suggestive pictures? Why would that person want to watch soap operas that encourage unfaithfulness? If skipping church is easy for you to do, why do you go to bed early before a day of work, but can stay up till 3 a.m. on Saturday night? Learn to fence around the sin that easily besets you. Learn to avoid what makes it easy for you to sin.

The second part of advice in Hebrews 12 is to keep "looking unto Jesus..." He is the "Author" of our faith, and He is the One who will be the "Finisher" of our faith. As we look to Him for help in the midst of our daily lives, we can realize that He was also tempted. He did not sin. He endured much in life. He prepared for His temptation with fasting and prayer. We have paid too little attention to temptation and besetting sins in Christianity. Unfortunately, it shows! It is a warfare against a wicked tempter... Get serious about this battle.

Hebrews 12:4
"...ye have not resisted unto blood,
striving against sin..."

Sin is something we must
strive against...
those who do not see any sin
in their lives, have just
had blinders put on them by the devil...

'if we say we have no sin,
we deceive ourselves,
and the truth is not in us...'
I John​

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think we need to get back to how the New Testament describes Christians in their different stages of development.

I objected to using the word 'carnal' as a description because it has so often been used as a judgemental way of describing believers that we don't agree with, or who don't belong to our particular denomination, or who don't quite measure up to our legalistic standard of morals or spirituality.

To me, the New Testament definition of 'carnal' is:
Being of the world, thinking like a worldly person, being under the domination of worldly lusts and desires, basically being an unbeliever.

But that doesn't solve the problem of how we describe true believers in their different stages of growth and maturity.

[Sorry. I'm being called away] I will be back later.

Coming back to my incomplete post from this morning.

I think that using the word 'carnal' is an unnecessarily judgemental way of describing immature Christians.

The New Testament does describe Christians who are "novices", "babes in Christ", "children [in Christ]", "young men". All these are describing Christians at different stages of development.

For example, when Paul was giving instruction to Timothy about appointing elders, he recommended not to appoint "novices" to the role. He implied that such young Christians were not yet experienced and equipped to have a leadership role in the church.

There is a great difference between a Christian who was saved just last week, and another Christian who has been growing in grace and going on the Lord for the last 30 years. Paul gave instructions not to rebuke an elder, and to treat older Christians with respect. He said that because he recognised that Christians who had been many years in the faith had wisdom and experience that younger Christians had not yet attained to.

It might seem that a "child" or a "novice" in the Lord may still have a lot of the ways of the world and habits that need to be addressed and dealt with. To flame such believers and call them 'carnal christians' comes from a judgemental attitude that the Lord does not approve of.

The New Testament supports that we should be patient with our "weaker brethren". Paul taught this very clearly in Corinthians. He said that we should give more honour to them because of their weaknesses. Trouble is, modern day Christians are ignoring Paul's instruction concerning weaker Christians and are putting them down by calling them 'carnal christians' and thereby quenching the Spirit in them, discouraging them by making them believe that they are in an inferior caste than ordinary Christians.

The fact is, we were all young Christians once, and it takes time to develop the mind of Christ. This is why we have 1 Corinthians 13 in the New Testament. This is why John tells us in his first letter that the person who does not love does not know God for God is love.

Therefore we are to love and honour our weaker brethren and sisters in Christ. We are, like Aquila and Priscilla with Apollos, to show them a more perfect way, instructing them and encouraging them with all the patience we can muster.

Those who put weaker brethren down and call them 'carnal christians' put themselves in a place where the Lord may very well come to them and point out all their faults and failings (which we all have, by the way).

That is why I don't like the term 'carnal christians'. I don't want to be that judgemental to my brothers and sisters in Christ. Because if I judge them, the Lord will judge me with the same judgement that I use to judge them with.

 

[~GodsMouthpiece~]

If you read what Paul says carefully, you will see that he has to speak to them as if they were carnal people of the world. He does not actually define them as carnal. He defines carnal people as being people outside of Christ. He told the Corinthians that because of their lack of maturity, he had to talk to them in the same way he talked to carnal unbelievers, in that he had to speak about spiritual things in very simple terms.

Paul sees people who put specific men like himself, Apollos, and Peter up on pedestals and engage in party politics as behaving like unbelievers who align themselves with personalities. He is pointing out that believers are not like that.

You can use as much bold and capital letters as you like, and all the dictionary quotes in the world, but you have not proved anything to me. All you are proving to me is that you are manipulating scripture and other sources just to push your barrow.

You are using the written equivalent of shouting me down and yet there is no real accuracy in what you are saying. Just because you write in bold doesn't mean that I have to believe what you are saying.

The fact that you are being aggressive at me merely that you are behaving like an aggressive carnal unbeliever yourself instead of someone who is able to discuss issues in the spirit of Christ.

Wise up and stop your brow beating, and read the Scripture carefully. I have read through Paul's letters very carefully, and I know that he clearly defines carnal people as being unbelievers who are still in the world.

Your splitting hairs over sematics..CARNAL=WORLDLY IN THOUGHT..

 

[bithiah2]

our Pastor spoke about this at Bible Study. he did not use that term, but one thing got from it was, when you are not living according to God's Word, when trials come (and they come to everyone), you will have to swim through all of your doubt and unbelief to hold on to God if you have not had the Word in your heart.
so it is always better to live according to the Word at all times. when you need God, it's too hard to try to have faith and fight all of the other things at the same time.
you need a clear connection all the time.
bithiah2

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Your splitting hairs over sematics..CARNAL=WORLDLY IN THOUGHT...

May the Lord deal with you according to His will and according to His standards of love which are demonstrated in the spirit of Christ, who while we were yet sinners, He loved us and gave Himself for us.

Therefore, I will determine not to know anything more with you other than Christ and Him crucified.

 

[mourningdove~]

Hebrews 12:1​

"...let us lay aside every weight,
and the sin that doth so easily beset us..."​

All of us are weaker in one area than another. In some, it is their temper. In others, it is depression. In some, it is a sinful habit. Whatever it is, the devil makes it his business to know it better than we do. We even try to hide it from ourselves. We give it pretty names. We look for reasons to excuse it. We find therefore, that this is the sin that "easily" trips us up.​

Your besetting sin is the one for which you don't want reproved. It is the sin that you are most ready to defend. It is the sin that causes you to doubt your acceptance by God. It is the sin you are most unwilling to admit that you possess. It is the sin that you are most unwilling to give up. It is the sin that you are trying to persuade yourself is an infirmity. It is the sin that you must put aside in order to enjoy your salvation.​

Besetting sins are a great danger for the Christian. They will keep you from moving forward in your walk and relationship with Jesus. They will take the place of God in your life. They will keep your walk inconsistent, and therefore keep you from any spiritual victories.​

Besetting sins will keep your prayers from being answered. They will bring you trouble and sorrow. They will be a stumblingblock to others. The besetting sins will grieve the Holy Spirit's work in your life. These sins will make you lose much of your reward.​

Besetting sins of just 'one' in the Body can hurt so many ...
and so greatly hinder the flow of the Spirit.​

God is 'Holy' ... so are we called to be.​

 

[~GodsMouthpiece~]

Besetting sins of just 'one' in the Body can hurt so many ...
and so greatly hinder the flow of the Spirit.​

God is 'Holy' ... so are we called to be.​

Then be Holy..Dont compromise
yourselves with idle chitchat,
and pointing of fingers..!

 

[mourningdove~]

Besetting sins of just 'one' in the Body can hurt so many ...
and so greatly hinder the flow of the Spirit.​

God is 'Holy' ... so are we called to be.​

Then be Holy..Dont compromise
yourselves with idle chitchat,
and pointing of fingers..!

Thank you for the advice.
I will talk to the Lord about it.​

 

[murjahel]

If all Christians were perfect,
and none were 'carnal'...
then we would not have disagreements...

this whole thread seems to be
confirmation
that there is carnality amidst Christians...

The gnostics of the early church,
and later too,
insisted that they had a 'knowledge',
a 'gnosis' that made them immune
to sin,
and what was sin for others,
was not sin for them...

They thereby condoned all their sins,
and preached that they lacked
carnality, hypocrisy, and sin...

John preached quite strongly to them,
and pointed out that
'if we (the brethren that John was speaking
to) said we had no sin,
we were thereby lying...

He told us to 'confess' those sins,
to maintain that purity given to us
at salvation.

To avoid 'confession' of sin,
some deny sin,
and do not recognize it when it is
obvious to God and many others.

All of us fail God,
and carnality may be a harsher
term to describe it than they would like...
and perhaps we can make
prettier names for sins
for them,
but they are still sin.

Adultery is an 'affair'
homosexuality is 'gay'
gossip is sharing,
lying is spin,
and etc...

God, in the original language of the Bible,
is shown to be far more blunt
than that...

carnality is meatheadedness...

Paul called the corinthians to be
meatheads...
I bet they would have preferred
to be called 'little children'...

it sounds prettier...
but for some reason, God
thought to be a bit more
adamant, and plain, wth
those Corinthians...

LOL​

 

[KleinerApfel]

The King of kings calls me names, but not like some here use name-calling!

He calls me holy and dearly loved, just as He calls EVERY one of us that if we are His children.

For anyone worried they might not make it to the standard required by religious people - do not fear man, ( fear not even yourself!), but trust in God!

Jude says it well...

24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—

25 to the only God our Saviour be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and for evermore! Amen.

He is able, He has promised, He is doing it, He will complete His purpose in you, rest in His peace and give thanks in awe.