The Problem with Carnal Christians

[GodsChild07]

​

I believe that there is a latter day outpouring of the Spirit of God. There are some individuals and some bodies who are in the process of seeking and experiencing that outpouring. I know that that latter-day outpouring does not fall on everybody, but only those who actively seek it. There are certain things that God has for you, certain things that god wants to do in your life, that will only happen as you progress spiritually, in Him. If you do not progress spiritually, you can not even see those things let alone walk in them. So, God wants to grow you spiritually, so that not only can He reveal them to you, but can eventually manifest them. The only way you can see these things is if you are looking through eyes that are matured in the spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:6-10
“We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him". But God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.”

God has something for all of us that would blow our minds. The problem is that most of us are carnal, and therefore, we not only can’t see the revelation of it, but we couldn’t handle the manifestation of it. No eye can see, no ear can hear and no mind can conceive what God has for us unless we are in Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14
“The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

To carnal men, the spiritual revelations of God seem like foolishness.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?

Paul says that there are two types of Christians: Carnal, or fleshly Christians, and spiritual Christians. What is a carnal Christian? Carnal Christians are driven by instinct, or how they feel at the time. Their instincts tell them to yell. Their instincts tell them to fight. Their instincts tell them to accuse and point the finger. But, what is the Spirit saying? Carnal Christians are like animals. Spiritual Christians are in tune to God’s spiritual voice and instead of asking their instincts what to do, they ask themselves: “What would God do?” Paul said that those people were like “babes”, that they had not grown and matured in God. They were still worldly. The key word is “still”. God did not have a problem that they were worldly. His problem was that they were STILL worldly, when they should have progressed out of that realm, out of their flesh, and into the Spirit.

A carnal Christian is like a “babe”, who can not handle solid food, or mature revelation. They have not grown up, but remain in their flesh. Sadly, most Christians are still carnal.

 

[murjahel]

The main thing that caused all the degeneration
of the church to its present state,
is the carnal thinking
that has overtaken the spiritual understanding
that we are to have.

The word for "carnal"
is the Greek word "sarkikos"
which literally translated means: "meathead..."

We have a "meathead" mentality in far too many Christians, and this has engendered a "meathead" church.

They fought this tendency even in the early church...

Romans 8:6, 10-13
"For to be carnally minded is death;
but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God;
for it is not subject to the law of God,
neither indeed can be.
... And if Christ be in you,
the body is dead because of sin;
but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus
from the dead
shall also quicken your mortal bodies
by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.
...For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit
do mortify the deeds of the body,
ye shall live..."

In Christianity,
there are many who have allowed
a "meathead" mentality to re-emerge.

It has led many to false doctrines,
wrong emphasis, and mistaken ideas.

Most in the early church
(Ananias and Sapphira being notable exceptions)
did not seek earthly riches,
but forsook all
and served the Lord.

Many of the early church could be put into prison,
sacrifice their earthly wealth
to give to the poorer saints in Jerusalem...

They saw the world as dead souls
needing life from the Lord.

Today, many are seeking to be carnally rich...
and spend more time counting their monetary wealth
than enjoying their spiritual wealth.

There are gifts of the Spirit that many are satisfied without...
There is the fruit of the Spirit that can be totally absent..
but un-missed by the one missing such.

Why are we so interested in the natural life,
the carnal mammon
which purchases only things of this world,
and the acclaim of men???

We need to put aside this "meathead" mentality, and begin valuing the spiritual blessings of salvation, gifts of the Spirit, and heavenly reward...

We need to realize that this earthly life is just temporary, and our real emphasis should be the spiritual life.

The early church thought on a spiritual plane,
and ignored the physical plane as much as they could...

As the early rain revival subsided, the congregations began to more and more think on the physical and carnal plane...

This led to many problems,
some of which we still suffer...​

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The concept of "carnal Christian" appeared through the writing of Watchman Nee in the late 1970s. It is an expression that is not found in the New Testament. (sorry to disappoint you, folks).

When the New Testament talks about 'carnal' people (ie: 'to be carnally minded is death', etc), it is speaking about people outside of Christ. It is the expression used to describe people who are still in their sins, and whose unrecreated spirits are still dead toward God. When the New Testament talks about being 'spiritually minded' it is talking about born again believers who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

The concept of 'carnal Christian' is therefore an impossible bonding of two completely different spiritual states. According to the New Testament, a person cannot be carnal and a Christian at the same time. A person is either one or the other.

To say that a Christian is less than the real McCoy is to say that Jesus did not do a perfect work on the cross for us, and that is resurrection only partly provided the answer for mankind.

Actually, the New Testament says that if any person is in Christ, he or she is a new creature, old things have passed away and all things have become new. This does not speak then of an incomplete Christian who is half in the world and half in the kingdom of God. The New Testament knows nothing of half pye Christians.

In Revelation, God speaks of half pye 'christians' as no Christians at all whom He will 'spew out of His mouth.' If a person is carnally minded, he or she is not in Christ at all. Conversion to Christ still needs to take place.

I reckon the notion of Christians being 'carnal' has been used by power and control minded religious leaders to put some classes of believers into lower castes so that they can be manipulated and controlled more easily. These are the leaders and preachers who suppress any sort of teaching that encourages believers to know their place with Christ. These leaders teach that to be true believers they have to come 'under their covering', as if it is a sin for a believer to know that he can stand on his own before and with Christ without fear, guilt or any sense of inferiority.

The religious power and control leaders demand that believers submit themselves to their authority within their denominational systems and persecute those believers who have the faith and confidence to stand without Christ without having to bow down to many manmade authority. These believers know that Christ has raised them up to sit beside Him in the heavenlies far above all rule and authority.

As long as these denominational leaders are able to convince believers that they are 'carnal' Christians, needing to submit to their authority to become truly Spiritual, they will maintain their man made systems and cheat good people out of their true inheritance in Christ.

So as far as I am concerned, the concept of 'carnal Christian' is only good enough to be thrown in the trashcan where it belongs.

 

[~GodsMouthpiece~]

Your lack of study shows here..Maybe your dissertation should be thrown into the "trashcan".

G4559
óáñêéêüò
sarkikos
Thayer Definition:
1) fleshly, carnal
1a) having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites
1a1) governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God
1a2) having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature
1a3) human: with the included idea of depravity
1b) pertaining to the flesh
1b1) to the body: related to birth, linage, etc
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4561
Citing in TDNT: 7:98, 1000
Total KJV Occurrences: 11
carnal, 9
Rom 7:14, Rom 15:27, 1 Cor 3:1, 1 Cor 3:3-4 (3), 1 Cor 9:11, 2 Cor 10:4, Heb
7:16
fleshly, 2
2 Cor 1:12, 1 Pet 2:11

1Corinthians 3:
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. 10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

 

[LeadWorship]

The concept of "carnal Christian" appeared through the writing of Watchman Nee in the late 1970s.

His writings were not intended for english translation because he felt much was lost in the Chinese - English conversion. However, you must read the forwards in his books, because quite a few of them are compiled notes of those who listened to him teach, not works that he put together and the forwards state this. Either way, Watchman Nee taught of things that many people do not want to hear or try to understand, or perhaps God hasn't revealed to them in their understanding. His major area of expertise, in my opinion, is the soul. I find the statement, "Carnal Christian" to be exactly what it is.

A carnal christian is a person who is saved, but allows the will of the flesh to reign over them instead of the will of the Father. That is a majority of christians who do what they want to do, and are not led by the Spirit of God. That is a Carnal Christian.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Your lack of study shows here..Maybe your dissertation should be thrown into the "trashcan".

G4559
óáñêéêüò
sarkikos
Thayer Definition:
1) fleshly, carnal
1a) having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites
1a1) governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God
1a2) having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature
1a3) human: with the included idea of depravity
1b) pertaining to the flesh
1b1) to the body: related to birth, linage, etc
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4561
Citing in TDNT: 7:98, 1000
Total KJV Occurrences: 11
carnal, 9
Rom 7:14, Rom 15:27, 1 Cor 3:1, 1 Cor 3:3-4 (3), 1 Cor 9:11, 2 Cor 10:4, Heb
7:16
fleshly, 2
2 Cor 1:12, 1 Pet 2:11

1Corinthians 3:
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. 10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

If you read what Paul says carefully, you will see that he has to speak to them as if they were carnal people of the world. He does not actually define them as carnal. He defines carnal people as being people outside of Christ. He told the Corinthians that because of their lack of maturity, he had to talk to them in the same way he talked to carnal unbelievers, in that he had to speak about spiritual things in very simple terms.

Paul sees people who put specific men like himself, Apollos, and Peter up on pedestals and engage in party politics as behaving like unbelievers who align themselves with personalities. He is pointing out that believers are not like that.

You can use as much bold and capital letters as you like, and all the dictionary quotes in the world, but you have not proved anything to me. All you are proving to me is that you are manipulating scripture and other sources just to push your barrow.

You are using the written equivalent of shouting me down and yet there is no real accuracy in what you are saying. Just because you write in bold doesn't mean that I have to believe what you are saying.

The fact that you are being aggressive at me merely that you are behaving like an aggressive carnal unbeliever yourself instead of someone who is able to discuss issues in the spirit of Christ.

Wise up and stop your brow beating, and read the Scripture carefully. I have read through Paul's letters very carefully, and I know that he clearly defines carnal people as being unbelievers who are still in the world.

 

[LeadWorship]

Sadly, most Christians are still carnal.

I agree, however I see a change in the desire of most christians, at least in my area. They are yearning to learn more about discovering the will of the Father, and that is very exciting!

 

[LeadWorship]

He defines carnal people as being people outside of Christ.

Apparently Jesus knew there would be Carnal Christians. How then do you explain Matthew 7:21-23?

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

These people thought they were christians, as they did works in His name! However, Jesus never knew them. So... in their heads they were christians, but to Jesus they were Carnal Christians. Make sense?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

His writings were not intended for english translation because he felt much was lost in the Chinese - English conversion. However, you must read the forwards in his books, because quite a few of them are compiled notes of those who listened to him teach, not works that he put together and the forwards state this. Either way, Watchman Nee taught of things that many people do not want to hear or try to understand, or perhaps God hasn't revealed to them in their understanding. His major area of expertise, in my opinion, is the soul. I find the statement, "Carnal Christian" to be exactly what it is.

A carnal christian is a person who is saved, but allows the will of the flesh to reign over them instead of the will of the Father. That is a majority of christians who do what they want to do, and are not led by the Spirit of God. That is a Carnal Christian.

Thanks for that. I see where you are coming from. I have just a small question though...

The scripture says that those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. So, if a person is not being led by the Spirit of God, are they actually the sons of God, or do you think they still need to be converted to Christ?

My other question is that if a person is truly converted to Christ, wouldn't he or she have the overall desire to be led by the Spirit of God?

Therefore, the progression of thought is that if we have a group of so called Christians who want to go their own way and not be led by the Spirit of God in their lives, are they rejecting Jesus as their Lord, and therefore not really Christians at all other than in name only?

How does that strike you?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I agree, however I see a change in the desire of most christians, at least in my area. They are yearning to learn more about discovering the will of the Father, and that is very exciting!

That would show me that these people are real Christians and not carnal ones!

 

[LeadWorship]

No you have stuck in your mind that biblical version of carnal "separated from God", when I am using the mere essence of the word as Carnal:Flesh. A Spiritual Christian is one who walks by the Spirit, i.e. Spirit-Led. A Carnal Christian is one who walks by the flesh, i.e. flesh-led.

For example: Do christians lie? Yes. Do christians break the law? Yes (speeding is breaking the law). In doing these things you are letting your flesh have say over what your spirit knows to be right, and are thereby doing these in the flesh. Not lying and not speeding are doing things by the Spirit, and are worship to God.

Still clear as mud?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Apparently Jesus knew there would be Carnal Christians. How then do you explain Matthew 7:21-23?

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

These people thought they were christians, as they did works in His name! However, Jesus never knew them. So... in their heads they were christians, but to Jesus they were Carnal Christians. Make sense?

You have to remember that the concept of being a Christian did not exist when Jesus made this statement. His ministry was toward the Jews - to show them the nature and character of the Father through Himself. He was not speaking to the church, which did not come into existence until the Day of Pentecost.

Therefore, Jesus was speaking to spiritually dead people. They were spiritually dead because He had not yet died for them on the cross and had not risen yet; also the Holy Spirit had not yet come down to indwell people.

Therefore, in that context, to the Jewish nation, Jesus was warning them that in order to become true believers they needed to believe in their hearts that He is Lord, and not just say it with their mouths. He was not referring at all to truly converted believers in Him.

Isn't it true that there are many nominal 'christians' in the world today whom we know will not make it, because they are christians in name only and do not worship the Lord in their hearts.

I wouldn't call them 'carnal christians'; I would merely call them carnal unbelievers posing as Christians.

And even on this forum we have people prophesying all sorts of things that we know are garbage, and yet they say they are doing it in the Name of the Lord.

To use that scripture in Matthew to refer to believers who have believed in their hearts that Jesus died for them on the cross and that He rose again for them, and are sincerely confessing Him through their words and actions, is a serious misquote of the scripture.

The Scripture is correct when it says that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus and who walk not after their natural inclinations but after the Spirit. And every true Christian has that deep inner yearning to walk in the will of God, after the Spirit so they can know that they are fulfilling their calling in Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No you have stuck in your mind that biblical version of carnal "separated from God", when I am using the mere essence of the word as Carnal:Flesh. A Spiritual Christian is one who walks by the Spirit, i.e. Spirit-Led. A Carnal Christian is one who walks by the flesh, i.e. flesh-led.

For example: Do christians lie? Yes. Do christians break the law? Yes (speeding is breaking the law). In doing these things you are letting your flesh have say over what your spirit knows to be right, and are thereby doing these in the flesh. Not lying and not speeding are doing things by the Spirit, and are worship to God.

Still clear as mud?

Forgive me, but I cannot for the life of me see that definition as describing New Testament Christians in any of the letters of Paul, Peter or John.

I see things in black and white. Either a person is a truly converted, on fire Christian who is seeking first the kingdom of God; or he is still in the world. Jesus did not recognise half way Christians. In Revelation, He said that He would spew lukewarm 'christians' out of His mouth.

This clearly shows me that the Lord does not recognise 'carnal christians' as being Christians at all.

 

[murjahel]

When James and John wanted
to call fire from heaven to destroy a Samaritan
village...
their names were written in heaven...

yet, I would call that thought to be
meatheaded, at least...

when the disciples fought over who
was the greatest..
were they totally backslidden and sinners?
or having 'carnal', meatheaded,
misdirection of their hearts?

when Ananias and Sapphira,
decided 'all' was too much to give,
so they gave a big part, but not all...
and lied to cover their decision,
were they totally unsaved,
or 'carnal meatheads'?

In the midst of revival,
when God is very near and moving,
it is a dangerous thing to be carnal...

To argue this point is unnecessary,
and the Scriptures presented already
do show that Paul considered many
in churches to be 'carnal'...
and yet, calls them 'brethren'...

enough has been presented to
give all a choice on which
concept to entertain...

to recognize carnality,
is part of the problem...

Paul dealt with that...
for some of them,
saw no carnality in their
sins, and temptations,
and yielded oft to their
carnal desires...

the church received a bad name,
due to the carnality within...

and to recognize it,
repent of it,
is the goal...

not to debate if it really is in the church...

let's work on identifying
what is 'carnality'...
rather than just trying to debate
who has it...

those perfect ones,
who never had a 'carnal' thought
or deed after salvation
are actually far fewer in number
than some would insist...
LOL​

 

[LeadWorship]

You have to remember that the concept of being a Christian did not exist when Jesus made this statement. His ministry was toward the Jews - to show them the nature and character of the Father through Himself. He was not speaking to the church, which did not come into existence until the Day of Pentecost.

Therefore, Jesus was speaking to spiritually dead people. They were spiritually dead because He had not yet died for them on the cross and had not risen yet; also the Holy Spirit had not yet come down to indwell people.

Therefore, in that context, to the Jewish nation, Jesus was warning them that in order to become true believers they needed to believe in their hearts that He is Lord, and not just say it with their mouths. He was not referring at all to truly converted believers in Him.

Huh? Jesus said "on that day". What day do you think He's talking about? This is a prophetic statement made by Jesus about Judgement day.

Isn't it true that there are many nominal 'christians' in the world today whom we know will not make it, because they are christians in name only and do not worship the Lord in their hearts.

I wouldn't call them 'carnal christians'; I would merely call them carnal unbelievers posing as Christians.

You say tomato, I'll say tomahto. That in no way means you are right and I am wrong. You are just uncomfortable calling them that. That's ok with me.

And even on this forum we have people prophesying all sorts of things that we know are garbage, and yet they say they are doing it in the Name of the Lord.

That's between them and God. We are all to test the spirits so we are not led astray.

To use that scripture in Matthew to refer to believers who have believed in their hearts that Jesus died for them on the cross and that He rose again for them, and are sincerely confessing Him through their words and actions, is a serious misquote of the scripture.

Umm you JUST said:

Isn't it true that there are many nominal 'christians' in the world today whom we know will not make it, because they are christians in name only and do not worship the Lord in their hearts.

Did you mean they won't make it to the gas station? Don't say I'm misquoting scripture just because you don't understand it. You have just contradicted yourself, man, and the worst part is you don't even realize it. I don't know everything, nor do I admit that I do, but please don't act like you do. We are all capable of being wrong.

The Scripture is correct when it says that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus and who walk not after their natural inclinations but after the Spirit. And every true Christian has that deep inner yearning to walk in the will of God, after the Spirit so they can know that they are fulfilling their calling in Christ.

This is Romans 8, the first several verses 1-5 i believe. I totally agree with this, and praise God for it.

Oscarr, I'm not here to argue with you, but if you cannot see that Matthew 7:21-23 is Jesus referring to when He is sitting on His Judgement seat on that great day, then we have nothing further to discuss. I thank you for your time and efforts, and have a blessed Friday.

Selah.

 

[LeadWorship]

let's work on identifying
what is 'carnality'...​

rather than just trying to debate
who has it...​

I thought I was doing that, however I must be sadly mistaken.​

those perfect ones,
who never had a 'carnal' thought
or deed after salvation ​

are actually far fewer in number
than some would insist...​

LOL​

That is quite correct. I would say that it is so rare that it never was so. Every Christian all started off as Babes... and when babes learn to walk, they fall. It's a fact of growing up.​

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

When James and John wanted
to call fire from heaven to destroy a Samaritan
village...
their names were written in heaven...​

At that time, they were not converted because Jesus had not yet gone to the cross as their subsitute. They were still spiritually dead men. They became new creations at the Day of Pentecost.

yet, I would call that thought to be

meatheaded, at least...

when the disciples fought over who
was the greatest..
were they totally backslidden and sinners?
or having 'carnal', meatheaded,
misdirection of their hearts?

They weren't new creations in Christ yet. Simple.

when Ananias and Sapphira,

decided 'all' was too much to give,
so they gave a big part, but not all...
and lied to cover their decision,
were they totally unsaved,
or 'carnal meatheads'?

There is a doubt as to whether they were truly converted to Christ at all.

In the midst of revival,

when God is very near and moving,
it is a dangerous thing to be carnal...

It is a dangerous thing to be an unbeliever because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God if a person is not a truly born again on fire believer.

To argue this point is unnecessary,

and the Scriptures presented already
do show that Paul considered many
in churches to be 'carnal'...
and yet, calls them 'brethren'...

His definition of 'carnal' was as people who were still in the world and outside of Christ. He talks about that to the Corinthians when he says that he had to speak to them as if they were carnal (people still in the world).

enough has been presented to

give all a choice on which
concept to entertain...

to recognize carnality,
is part of the problem...

Paul dealt with that...
for some of them,
saw no carnality in their
sins, and temptations,
and yielded oft to their
carnal desires...

the church received a bad name,
due to the carnality within...

It was only in the Corinthian church that it was an issue.

and to recognize it,

repent of it,
is the goal...

not to debate if it really is in the church...

let's work on identifying
what is 'carnality'...
rather than just trying to debate
who has it...

those perfect ones,
who never had a 'carnal' thought
or deed after salvation
are actually far fewer in number
than some would insist...
LOL

The definition is simple: Carnality is equated to being ruled by the natural mind and impulses and not being under the Lordship of Christ. This describes unbelievers. My view is that if 'believers' start behaving like unbelievers then they are backsliding back into the world and rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ afresh, bringing condemnation on themselves.
​

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Huh? Jesus said "on that day". What day do you think He's talking about? This is a prophetic statement made by Jesus about Judgement day.

Exactly. But I don't think that it is a reference that is directed toward true Christian believers. It is directed toward those who are pretending and who are fooling everyone else but themselves.

I am disappointed that you decided to get personal with me in your last post. It is beneath you. I think the points we are both making are fair discussion points. You should not allow your frustration to cause you to make comments that don't carry the spirit of Christ with them.

We are not going to agree entirely. That is the beauty of this forum. It would be a pretty sad forum if everyone agreed with each other. We learn through our 'jousting' with each other. We are motivated to think more deeply about our views this way.

I am enjoying our discussion, and it is quite ok for us to agree to disagree. But don't put yourself down by making comments that are beneath your good character.

 

[LeadWorship]

Haha, I didn't get personal, and I apologize if you took anything I said as offensive. It was not my intent. Also I am not frustrated, I however choose not to discuss things at times, this allows me to keep my flesh in check, to answer in love moreso than frustration. I got testy at the accusation of misquoting scripture, and I'm sure you know how that accusation stings.

After re-reading what I wrote, I still cannot see how I got personal with you. Because you do agree that the verses in question is regarding the Judgement day (Matt 7:21-23) I will continue.

He was talking to the Jews of His time about those who find themselves at the Judgement seat of Christ. Do we agree?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

God has something for all of us that would blow our minds. The problem is that most of us are carnal, and therefore, we not only can’t see the revelation of it, but we couldn’t handle the manifestation of it. .

Why not let what God has already revealed in His Word "blow your mind" before looking for some extra Biblical revelation (and probably false doctrines)?