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The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

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Ken-1122

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As I said before, I realize rape is wrong, but that’s forced rape; the point I originally made was a scenario where its statuary rape in one state but not in another. Not everything that falls under the category of rape is wrong according to science.

The “Plan of Salvation” is a major part of Christianity. This plan included Jesus as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

My moral opinion applies to myself as well as all others who agree with me; and the same can be said of what you call objective morality.

Well according to objective morality there is only one truth about a moral being right or wrong so the two people in the room may still hold their personal views on morality but they will be ultimately wrong.
Who decides they are ultimately wrong? You? Because I decide those who disagree with me are ultimately wrong.

When they argue about a moral they will use the objective moral as the guide to who is right or wrong. Under subjective morality there is no ultimate measure so there is no ultimate right or wrong.
With my subjective opinion, there is an ultimate measure of right and wrong; my opinion! And my opinion carries as much weight as what your so called objective moral guide carries. If you disagree, prove me wrong

When you look at moral issues like abortion, gay marriage, nuclear weapons, or birth control, there is no clear objective standard like you speak of. All you have is your opinion, and you speak of it as if it is objective.

The same will apply with your so called objective morality. Yeah you can say “well they’re just wrong” but I can say that too!

What scientific theory addresses the right vs wrong of abortion, gay marriage, or nuclear weapons during war?
 
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Ken-1122

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It's an objective fact that cutting of your head is detrimental to your well-being.
Whose well-being? Mine or mankind. Suppose I were hitler in 1936 before he caused all of that carnage; would it be good for mankind if my head were cut off at that time? What proof do you have of this?
With well-being as our foundation we can make objective assessments about the consequences of our actions.
But well-being is not the foundation of right or wrong.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Your exact words from post #546 were:

Yes, that is just one of the serious philosophical problems with the Nazis, and other atheistic and humanistic based societies.
No, you misunderstood my statement, I was grouping it with atheistic and humanistic societies, not calling it an atheistic society. Nazism is a humanistic based political system, ie its policies were based on what is best for a certain group of humans, "Aryans".
 
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Ken-1122

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Why did you mention "atheistic" when it clearly was not?
 
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stevevw

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I posted the scientific support for the harm caused by statuary rape earlier. The fact is this is about a young person who is not ready for a sexual relationship and does not realize the full implications of what they are getting into. An adult can easily take advantage of a young person because they are nieve. The consequences can be varied from young people suffering low self-esteem, mental illness such as depression, suicide, underage pregnancy and all the problems associated with that such as not being able to work, poverty, poor education, STD's, physical pain because young girls are not fully developed, and the risk of abuse because young people are more vulnerable.

What Are the Risks of Statutory Rape?
Statutory Rape

Becuase the harm from statuary rape has been proven then the states that do not have laws for this and disagree its a problem are wrong. People have the right to have their own view about something but if it can be objectively shown that something is wrong then their view can also be shown to be objectively wrong. In this case, statuary rape can be scientifically shown to be harmful to young people which are an objective position because science is outside the human view and independently verified.

My moral opinion applies to myself as well as all others who agree with me; and the same can be said of what you call objective morality.
Yes, but there will be a certain amount of people who agree with you and there will be a certain amount who disagree with another view and then another group who will have a different view again and so on. Even if there are just one or two people who have a different view, in the end, they still have the right to have their view and voice it under subjective morality.

Just because you have many people agreeing on something is right under subjective morality as we have seen with some of the wrong decisions made by governments and organisations like NATO doesn't mean they are ultimately right. Under subjective morality, there is no way of telling who is really right or wrong because there is no ultimate moral standard to go by that is outside and independent of human moral views. But with objective morality, the claim is there is a moral standard outside human views that will be morally good despite the many different human views.

Who decides they are ultimately wrong? You? Because I decide those who disagree with me are ultimately wrong.
Under subjective morality when you decide something is wrong it is not ultimately wrong as in being truly wrong outside of you or your view. It only means the other people are wrong just for you and it stops with you. You cant say to the other person that they need to change their view to yours because you know that you are right for everyone else.

With my subjective opinion, there is an ultimate measure of right and wrong; my opinion! And my opinion carries as much weight as what your so-called objective moral guide carries. If you disagree, prove me wrong.
It can be proven in that as you said you view is only applied to you whereas an objective moral view is outside humans and not subject dependent. It is not influenced by human opinion and stands independent of human opinion. If it can be established as being independently true or fact then it will show that despite you thinking your opinion is right it will be wrong in the light of the independently established moral. As mentioned the best way to establish an independent moral act is to use scientific reasoning and logic showing the harm to human well-being that the moral act causes because science is independent of human opinion.

When I use science to prove an act causes harm to someone's wellbeing this is not my opinion but an independent position from scientific research. Just like I mentioned earlier about it being scientific fact that water needs heat to boil despite someones personal view that ice can make water boil. So when someone says in their personal view that the act of rape is morally good it is the science that shows independently that the act of rape is morally bad because it brings harm to a women's wellbeing. Wellbeing is something that we all know is important for human happiness and survival and cannot be disputed because it is scientifically verified.

What scientific theory addresses the right vs wrong of abortion, gay marriage, or nuclear weapons during war?
It is the many areas of science such as psychology, human behaviour, neurology, medicine, etc that will have research papers on the effects and consequences of certain acts and behaviours. These have been scientifically verified just like the laws of physics, etc.
 
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Ken-1122

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I’m not talking about an adult taking advantage of a young person; I’m talking about two teenagers 17 and 19 where it is illegal in one state and not illegal in another. According to your science, which state is right?
This happens under what you call objective morality as well.
What are you talking about; “outside human views”? Science is NOT outside human views.
Then answer my question; which scientific theory addresses the right/wrong of Gay marriage, abortion, and Nuclear weapons during war. Remember; Google is your friend. Just as I can google scientific theories like the various laws of thermodynamics, Evolution, Cosmic Expansion, Big Bang, etc. and I can explain what those theories address, you should be able to list various scientific theories that address the moral issues I asked you about, and what they address.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Because the harm from statuary rape has been proven then the states that do not have laws for this and disagree its a problem are wrong.

This statement is demonstrably false. When I was eighteen, I had sex with my girlfriend, who was seventeen. It was technically statutory rape. There was no harm to me or my girlfriend.

How do I know this? We married four years later and had a wonderful marriage.
 
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stevevw

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I’m not talking about an adult taking advantage of a young person; I’m talking about two teenagers 17 and 19 where it is illegal in one state and not illegal in another. According to your science, which state is right?
There has to be a point at which they can decide what is the minimum and maximum ages for this law. There is nothing in this situation that negates the truthfulness of statutory rape being something that is morally bad. Those who disagree with the age limits still both agree that statutory rape laws should exist therefore statutory rape is still shown to be objectively wrong through the science. Just becuase there is disagreement on a small aspect of the moral does not mean people disagree with the whole moral position.

What are you talking about; “outside human views”? Science is NOT outside human views.
Of course it is. Does a individuals personal view decide what the laws of gravity is. Does an individualsview decide what is the best way to boil water. These things are decided by science, laws of physics which are not based on individuals personal views so therefore they staand outside personal views. If one person says water can only be boiled by ice, another says water can only be boiled by looking at it and other says water can be boiled by adding salt, then their personal views are all objectively wrong according to the laws of physics which states that water can only be boiled by heat. The laws of physics are not based on personal views and stand independent and outside.of human opinion.

It is the same for moral acts. If someone says rape is good becuase it gives me pleasure, another says rape is good because it makes women stronger and someone else says rape is ok because it benefits me in some way we can prove through independent science that they are all objectively wrong ie psychology, human behavior studies, neurology, medical practcice, sociology etc showing the bad effects it has on women, their families, the individual committing rape and society as a whole which brings many consequences that deminish human wellbeing and happiness.

The laws of physics dont have to have theories. Water boils through heat which is a scientific fact, so what theory applies here. So rape for example is the forcing and violation of someone sexually. It is a scientific fact through psychology for example that violating a human causes trauma to them. So what would the theory be for this. I dont know if there is one, maybe there is and I would have to do some research. But it still does not take away from the scientific fact that rape causes humans trauma.

Besides theories that may account for the harm associated with a moral acts can be wide and varied. For example a woman who is raped may be traumatized and this effects her ability to be a mother because the trauma dominates her thoughts and effects her behavior. That then leads to her having a poor relationship with her child and the child develops an insecure attachment which contributes to the child being affected throughout their life into adulthood through various behaviors such as becoming a drug addict, becoming an abuser themselves etc. This comes under attachment theory but the consequences are indirectly connected back to the original act of rape that the mother experienced. So in that sense you could list just about every theory that effects the wellbeing humans. But you could start with some general ones about wellbeing.

Theory of Human Need
This theory is about human beings having universal and objective needs for health and autonomy and a right to their optimal satisfaction.
• There are universal goals to avoid harm and participate in a social form of life • Identify basic human needs for health and autonomy. Critical autonomy as higher-order need for critical participation • Needs are universal; need-satisfiers (goods, services, activities, relationships, policies) are relative to time and place • Use codified and experiential knowledge to identify ‘universal satisfier characteristics’ (eg. nutriments, significant primary relationships)
http://www.bath.ac.uk/soc-pol/welldev/spa-presentations/theories-of-wellbeing-text.pdf

As mentioned earlier Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a theory about humans needing to fulfil certain needs ranging from the physical to the psychological to the higher order needs like self-actualisation. These needs can be affected by acts like rape which affect a person physically such as not being able to eat properly to being psychologically damaged to having their higher order needs affected and denied such as not being able to achieve their full potential. Once one need is affected others are effected. All contribute to affecting human wellbeing.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a theory in psychology proposed by Abraham Maslow in his 1943 paper “A Theory of Human Motivation” in Psychological Review.
Maslow's hierarchy of needs - Wikipedia
 
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stevevw

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As I said there may be some anomalies in the law that need to be rectified but this does not change the fact that the basic law or moral is correct in that young people are naieve and can be taken advantage by an older person. Just because your situation did not fall within the definition of statutory rape does not mean that we then say that the premise for statutaory rape is subjective.

It is a scientific fact that young people do not understand the consequences and implications of sexual encounters and older people can take advantage of this. That is the definition of statutory rape. So, in other words, the science can also show that in situations like yours this should not be deemed as statutory rape and the jurisdiction is wrong and needs changing. Potentially scinece could determine every individual case to see if the younger person understands the situation and if the older person has taken advantage to establish oif any harm has been caused.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Just because your situation did not fall within the definition of statutory rape does not mean that we then say that the premise for statutaory rape is subjective.

I specifically told you that my situation fell within the definition of statutory rape.
 
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stevevw

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I specifically told you that my situation fell within the definition of statutory rape.
Sorry I am getting so many senarios thrown at me I cannot keep up. I meant to say that just because you believe it was not wrong for you does not mean that we then view statutory rape as subjective. The basic moral for statuatory rape still stands for that state, infact from what I understannd if you got caught then you would be prosecuted even though you thought you were not doing anything wrong. Unfortunately sometimes the law catches innocents because it has to draw a line somewhere. What if it was another couple in the same position as you and the girl was naieve about things. The fact is research and stats show that generally young people dont understand sex and relations that well get into trouble in one way or another and therefore need direction and protection.

From what I understand there are varying degrees of wrong and the younger the girl involved and/or the greater the age difference the more severe the penalty. So for two teenagers who are close in age the penalty is normally lighter. As mentioned science can still determine individual cases as to whether there is harm to wellbeing and it seems the law reflects this. The point is most would still agree that statutory rape should be a law and is morally wrong based on the intention of protecting a young person from being taken advantage of sexually.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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So in my case, does science say what we did was harmful, even though neither of us would say we were harmed?
 
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Ken-1122

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There has to be a point at which they can decide what is the minimum and maximum ages for this law. There is nothing in this situation that negates the truthfulness of statutory rape being something that is morally bad.
I agree there needs to be a line drawn, but my point is; everything that is put under the category of statutory rape is not harmful

The temperature water freezes and boils falls under the law of Kinetic energy. But I think where we disagree here is that you seem to think whatever psychologists deem good for human well-being is morally good and I do not; I would even bet MOST do not.

It was only a few centuries ago when many in the psychological and philosophy community produced evidence of a racial hierarchy with whites on top and blacks on the bottom; AKA Racism.
Scientific racism

Or only a few decades ago that Homosexuality was considered a mental disorder
Homosexuality and psychology - Wikipedia

Of course they have changed their positions on those issues now, but what about tomorrow? How do you know what they are telling you today will not be changed tomorrow? And with such a history of flip flopping on various issues, how could you possibly consider them a moral base for morality?
 
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Ed1wolf

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Cute...
I don't "borrow" any moral conclusions from Christianity, and I appear to be of the same moral character as the few "good" Christians I know.

Not consciously, but I have a hunch you were raised in either the US or a Western society, both of which are primarily societies based on Christian principles, so you and your parents were influenced by the society in which you and they live and were raised. So you look around and see how people living according to those principles and generally are having a good and fulfilling life, so you consciously or unconsciously make those your basic ethical principles. As you get older and go to secular humanistic schools of course, you make modifications to fit in with your peers that may cause you to drift away from some of those principles.


tnt: I've been arguing this entire time that "good" and "bad" are subjective. There's only "good... to you" and "bad... to you".
Right, while your morals are far better than Hitler and the Nazis, most of them would agree with you that morality is subjective and relative. And that is how many of them justified their behavior.


tnt: Not objectively bad, no.
Thanks for being consistent, unlike many atheists I have debated.
 
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Ed1wolf

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No, I am just refuting those who claim that the reason we don't treat humans like we do animals, ie such as killing and eating them, is because since we ourselves are humans we should treat them well in order for us to be treated well. But that is just a subjective decision based on their feelings that humans are special when in fact objectively they are not, if atheistic evolution is true.
 
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stevevw

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So in my case, does science say what we did was harmful, even though neither of us would say we were harmed?
I don't know your situation so I cant tell you. I cannot just take your word for it though as young people can have a tendency to think they are OK when they are not and that is also a scientific fact. So going back to when your situation first happened the authorities are not just going to take your word for it and just walk away. You only know your situation is ok because of hindsight. If the science was applied it may show you are not harmed but science does not work on what a individual says but rather on scientific facts that is why it can be objective.

If your alluding to whether your situation would change the fact that statutory rape is objectively morally wrong it does not matter. The point is your situation will either be morally right or wrong according to whether someone was sexually taken advantage of with the science regardless of what you or the law says.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Ed1wolf said:
Sure it does. His character IS our objective moral standard.

ken: No; because then morality would be subjective to the thoughts of God. In order for morality to be objective, its base cannot be capable of thought
Exactly, His character is not capable of thought, only His mind is.
 
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stevevw

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I agree there needs to be a line drawn, but my point is; everything that is put under the category of statutory rape is not harmful
So therefore the law is wrong in some situations. But I guess there was little they could do about that unless they assessed each and every situation to determine innocence or guilt.

But similar logic and scientific reasoning is used especially now we have the technology. Medical tests can show when a person is assaulted for example that it bruises and dcuts the body. The fact is when you hit the body the blow will cause damage to the blood vessels and it will bruise or hit hard enough and the skin will tear. These are facts just as much as the fact that heat causes water to boil. The same can be said for the other sciences like neurology, psychology etc.

They can now do tests to show how the brain is affected with most harms and how this then goes on to effect the person later. They have plenty of data which shows how rape harms people psychologically. Psychology is a science and it can tell when someone is psychologically affected by something by the symptoms. If a person is not psychologically affected by rape then there has to be something else wrong such as the person is already mentally ill and does not react the noraml way. But then that can be determined as well.

It was only a few centuries ago when many in the psychological and philosophy community produced evidence of a racial hierarchy with whites on top and blacks on the bottom; AKA Racism.
Scientific racism
I am not sure, I though it all started with Fraud or maybe that was pychiartistry. But they were around the same time I think.

They will not be that wrong about the effects of certain acts on peoples wellbing today and in the future becuase we have better knowledge and tech. If we are wrong we will find a better answer. As the science improves it will find even more evidence of the harm certain acts cause humans. The point is what they find now is derived from years of knowledge, experience and technology so just like other therioes and results have been confirmed through time so has medicine, psychology etc. Neorology and genetics are relatively new areas and they are discovering things in these areas as well.

There will be some things they are wrong about but I think most of the time it will be about the type of harm rather than there being some sort of harm or not in the first place. The point is either now or in the future science is a potential method to determine harm to human wellbeing. Just becuase it has now been determined does not mean it can't at some stage.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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I don't know your situation so I cant tell you. I cannot just take your word for it though as young people can have a tendency to think they are OK when they are not and that is also a scientific fact.

I told you the situation. So answer the question. Do you think science would say what we did was harmful even though we both would say it wasn’t harmful, both at the time and years later?

Suggesting that science can assign harm to someone despite their insistence there was no harm is as ridiculous as insisting that someone is unhappy when they insist they are.

Everyone assigns harm individually. Both whether it occurred and how much. To say otherwise is insanity.


Someone once described Sam Harris as having a PhD in not knowing what “objective” means. Which is, of course, a correct assessment. Seems like you’re in good company...

If your alluding to whether your situation would change the fact that statutory rape is objectively morally wrong it does not matter.

Because morality isn’t objective, correct.

What I’m saying now is that even within a subjective moral system, not all moral situations can be objectively resolved. Any freshman ethics class can tell you that.

I mean, what would science say about the various trolley problems...
 
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