The Problem of Hell

Omnibenevolent? Meaning He has to bless everyone even though they are wicked? That is not taught anywhere...except maybe Wiki!

I like your thoughts about the punishment not being eternal though. Justice is served when the price is paid. One of God's names is Eternal. So eternal punishment is really Eternal punishment, meaning God's punishment. It isnt talking about duration.

Saul Hudson said:

Omnibenevolent? Meaning He has to bless everyone even though they are wicked? That is not taught anywhere...except maybe Wiki!

I like your thoughts about the punishment not being eternal though. Justice is served when the price is paid. One of God's names is Eternal. So eternal punishment is really Eternal punishment, meaning God's punishment. It isnt talking about duration.

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Eternal isn't really eternal...

Timothew said:

Can you explain a little bit about how losing out on eternal life and ending up dead is a "win"?

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Well, if there aren't any consequences for the non-believer, then what is the reason for conversion? We may just as well believe in the fairy in the sky like they say. That would make for a strong argument for the atheist/agnostic. Make the best of what you have here, because when you leave, well, "Ab'd Ab'd Ab'd, That's all, Folks!

It's a strange concept that's foreign to the scriptures.

few stripes or many stripes -- there must be a LAST STRIPE

a word picture of a punishment which is NOT 'endless'

Anto9us said:

few stripes or many stripes -- there must be a LAST STRIPE

a word picture of a punishment which is NOT 'endless'

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But what's suggested here is no stripes at all. Perish simply means cease to exist. No weeping, no gnashing of teeth, just.... nothing.

Seems the word eternal here is the sticky wicket.
The saved get eternal, the lost dont, is that about it?
Heaven and hell are very rarely that simple, imo.

The following scriptures address the false apostate doctrine that says upon a sinner’s death he/she goes immediately to a place of fiery punishing called Hell and remains until called forth in the resurrection to judgment. It also addresses the false doctrine that upon the death of someone who is saved, that person goes immediately to Heaven. Understand that these scriptures do not address the future fate of those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life following the Great White Throne judgment, the Lake of Fire, and the second death. Those are topics to which I have other scriptures.

I will post this in two parts due to its length.


EZEKIEL 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul [nephesh] who sins shall die. (NKJV)

All have sinned and come short. All die, the good and the bad.

EZEKIEL 18:20 "The soul [nephesh] who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the
guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the
righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon
himself. (NKJ)

Same idea as the 18:4

JOB 3:11 "Why did I not die at birth? Why did I not perish when I came from the
womb? 12 Why did the knees receive me? Or why the breasts, that I should nurse?
13 For now I would have lain still and been quiet, I would have been asleep; then I would have been at rest 14 with kings and counselors of the earth, who built ruins for themselves, 15 or with princes who had gold, who filled their houses with silver; 16 Or why was I not hidden like a stillborn child, like infants who never saw light? 17 There the wicked cease from troubling, and there the weary are at rest. 18 There the prisoners rest together; they do not hear the voice of the oppressor. 19 The small and great are there, and the servant is free from his master. (NKJV)

Here Job says he would have been asleep, dead. He goes on to say the small as well as the great are all asleep or dead and rest together. None are in Heaven and none are being punished.

JOB 7:21 And why dost Thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? For now shall I sleep in the dust; and Thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be. (RWB)

Again, Job says he will sleep in the dust, in the grave, for he will be dead. He will not be in Heaaven.

JOB 14:10 But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? 11 As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, 12 so man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep. 13 Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, that You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, that You would appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, till my change comes. (NKJV)

Again Job says a man lies down and dies. He also says he will be laid down and dead until the resurrection of the saints when he will be changed.

JOB 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, that in my flesh I shall see God, 27 whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me! (NKJV)


ECCLESIASTES 9:2 All share a common destiny — the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not. As it is with the good man, so with the sinner; as it is with those who take oaths, so with those who are afraid to take them. 3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope — even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. (NIV)

Here Job declares again that the good and the bad both share the common destiny of death. He goes further to state that in death, the dead know nothing at all. What purpose would it be to eternally torture anyone who knows nothing at all, not the reason for their punishing nor even the fact that they are undergoing punishing?

ECCLESIASTES 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor
knowledge nor wisdom. (NIV)

There is no wisdom or knowledge in the grave. The dead are unaware of anything at all.

“The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice.” – John 5:28

The above tells us exactly where the dead are. They are all in their graves.,,

PSALM 6:5 No one remembers You when he is dead. Who praises You from the
grave? (NIV)

Here even David declares that the dead know nothing at all.

PSALM 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God; enlighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death; (NKJV)

David says he will sleep the sleep of death.

“Do not let me be ashamed, O LORD, for I have called upon You; Let the wicked be ashamed; Let them be silent in the grave.” – Psalm 31:17

Above, David says let the wicked be silent in their graves, not screaming in a fiery punishing.

PSALM 17:15 As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness. (NKJV)

Davis says he will awaken from his sleep of death.

PSALM 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried out to You, and You healed me. 3 O LORD, You brought my soul up from the grave; You have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. 4 Sing praise to the LORD, You saints of His, and give thanks at the remembrance of His holy name. . . . 9 "What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise You? Will it declare Your truth? 10 Hear, O LORD, and have mercy on me; LORD, be my helper!" (NKJV)

David declares that he will go down to the pit, the grave which is hell and will not be able to praise God while in his sleep of death. David knows he will not be with God in Heaven when he dies.

PSALM 88:1 O LORD, God of my salvation, I have cried out day and night before You. 2 Let my prayer come before You; incline Your ear to my cry. 3 For my soul is full of troubles, and my life draws near to the grave. 4 I am counted with those who go down to the pit; I am like a man who has no strength, 5 adrift among the dead, like the slain who lie in the grave, whom You remember no more, and who are cut off from Your hand. 6 You have laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the depths. 7 Your wrath lies heavy upon me, and You have afflicted me with all Your waves. Selah 8 You have put away my acquaintances far from me; You have made me an abomination to them; I am shut up, and I cannot get out; 9 My eye wastes away because of affliction. LORD, I have called daily upon You; I have stretched out my hands to You. 10 Will You work wonders for the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise You? Selah 11 Shall Your lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or Your faithfulness in the place of destruction? 12 Shall Your wonders be known in the dark? And Your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? (NKJV)

In the above, David calls death and the grave the land of forgetfulness because he knows his thoughts will perish within the grave.

PSALM 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into
silence; (NASU)

Again, even the righteous dead cannot praise the Lord while asleep in death.

PSALM 146:3 Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. 4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (NASU)

Even David declare that the thoughts of man perishes when the man dies. The dead are aware of absolutely nothing at all. There are not two separate thoughts of man, only one.

“What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his soul from the power of the grave? Selah” – Psalm 89:48

Only God, in the resurrection can deliver a man from death and the grave.

DEUTERONOMY 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to sleep with your fathers; then this people will rise and play the harlot after the strange gods of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake me and break my covenant which I have made with them. (RSV)

Moses is dead and in his grave. He is not in Heaven.

II SAMUEL 7:12 And when your [David's] days are over and you fall asleep with your ancestors, I shall appoint your heir, your own son to succeed you (and I shall make his sovereignty secure). (NJB)

Here God informs David that he will die and sleep with his fathers. David is not in Heaven, he is in his grave even today.

“Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake…” – Daniel 12:2

They are in their graves when the resurrection occurs. They are neither in Hell nor in Heaven.

I KINGS 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the City of
David. (NASU)

David is dead and buried and sleeps with his fathers. He is not in Heaven.

ACTS 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens" . . . (NKJV)

This is after the false doctrine that preaches that Christ freed all the captives and took them all off to Heaven. That is yet another lie.

ACTS 13:36 "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;" (NKJV)

David died and is in his grave. His body has returned to dust. He is not in Heaven.

JOHN 11:11 These things he said, and after that he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." 12 Then his disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well." 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead." (NKJV)

Yes, Lazarus was dead and the Lord resurrected him to life.

ACTS 7:59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (NKJV)

Asleep means dead. Stephen is dead and buried.


I CORINTHIANS 15:6 After that he was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. (NKJV)

They all died and are in their graves.


DANIEL 12:13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days." (NKJV)

Daniel, another great saint, is dead and in his grave. Daniel is not in Heaven.

DANIEL 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. (NKJV)

They are all dead and in their graves when the resurrections occur. They are neither in Heaven or in Hell awaiting the resurrection from there.

ISAIAH 26:19 Your dead shall live; together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; for your dew is like the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (NKJV)

Isaiah even declares that the dead are in the earth, not in Heaven or in Hell but are in their graves awaiting the resurrections.

JOHN 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. (RSV)

John plainly declares that all the dead are in their tombs, neither in Hell or in Heaven, and are awaiting the resurrections.

Joh_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Now the above is straight from Christ’s own mouth. Don’t you think he should know if anyone has ascended unto Heaven other than himself? Why should He lie about it? This includes all those in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, all those “souls under the alter” in Revelation, the Thief on the Cross, Moses and Abraham, Elijah and anyone else.

Part 2

EPHESIANS 5:13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for
whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says: "Awake, you who sleep,
arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light." (NKJV)

Christ awakens those who sleep, who are dead.


I CORINTHIANS 15:20 But now Christ is risen [egegertai] from the dead, and has
become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came
death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign till He has put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (NKJV)

Plainly says the dead are asleep and that Christ will bring them forth from their graves in the resurrections.

I CORINTHIANS 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a
mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." (NKJV)

I THESSALONIANS 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about
those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. (NASU)

I THESSALONIANS 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words. (NIV)

Paul is very clear here. Those who have fallen asleep and are in their graves will come forth in the resurrection at Christ’s coming. They will rise. From where will they rise? From their graves. Not from Heaven or from Hell.


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

In the above scripture, Paul tells us when the saved will gather together with the Christ. It is at His return and not at anytime before.

Mar_13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The above is plainly referring to the end times and to the return of Christ.



EZEKIEL 37:1 The hand of the LORD came upon me, and He led me out in the spirit of the LORD and set me in the center of the plain, which was now filled with bones. 2 He made me walk among them in every direction so that I saw how many they were on the surface of the plain. How dry they were! 3 He asked me: Son of man, can these bones come to life? "Lord GOD," I answered, "you alone know that." 4 Then He said o me: Prophesy over these bones, and say to them: Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: See! I will bring spirit into you, that you may come to life. 6 I will put sinews upon you, make flesh grow over you, cover you with skin, and put spirit in you so that you may come to life and know that I am the LORD. 7 I prophesied as I had been told, and even as I was prophesying I heard a noise; it was a rattling as the bones came together, bone joining bone. 8 I saw the sinews and the flesh come upon them, and the skin cover them, but there was no spirit in them. 9 Then He said to me: Prophesy to the spirit, prophesy, son of man, and say to the spirit: Thus says the Lord GOD: From the four winds come, O spirit, and breathe into these slain that they may come to life. 10 I prophesied as He told me, and the spirit came into them; they came alive and stood upright, a vast army. 11 Then He said to me: Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They have been saying, "Our bones are dried up, our hope is lost, and we are cut off." 12 Therefore, prophesy and say to them: Thus says the Lord GOD: O my people, I will open your graves and have you rise from them, and bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and have you rise from them, O my people! 14 I will put my Spirit in you that you may live, and I will settle you upon your land; thus you shall know that I am the LORD. I have promised, and I will do it, says the LORD. (NAB)

Above is speaking of the resurrection of Israel.

Following is the scripture that causes the most misunderstanding and is probably the most misquoted scripture in our Bibles:

II CORINTHIANS 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be
unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the
Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at
home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by
sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body
and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. (NKJV)

If we simply go back to Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, we find that "our earthly house" (v. 1), our physical body, will be "swallowed up by life" (v. 4) at the resurrection (I Cor. 15:50-54). This is the context in which Paul writes here. When Paul says that "while we are at home in the (physical) body we are absent from the Lord," he is simply saying that we can't be with the Lord until we receive our immortal bodies at the resurrection (I Cor. 15:50).

When understood correctly, Paul here confirms that it's only at the resurrection that the saints will be alive with Yeshua. When Paul speaks of being "absent from the body to be present with the Lord," he is speaking of the resurrection of the dead, when his mortal body will be replaced by the "building from God" (v. 1).

I have posted more than enough simple scripture here that any reasonable and honest person should be able to reasonably determine that the dead are indeed dead and in their graves and that there is absolutely no one presently being tortured in a fiery place called Hell nor has anyone ascended unto Heaven other than the Christ. This will I pray, stave off those who preach an apostate doctrine to the contrary and make an open assault upon the name and character of our God and Christ. Please refrain from posting any other scriptures whereby you request I explain them to you since I submit if you are unwilling to accept all these scriptures I have posted, then there is simply nothing that you will accept and anything further would be in vain just as all these will have been in vain.

Timothew said:

Here is the Problem of Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell:
In order for people to experience eternal torment in hell, God would have to make them immortal for the sole purpose of inflicting suffering on them. This is logically incompatible with what we know about God, that God is good. God could eliminate wickedness by not granting eternal life to the wicked, by only granting eternal life to those who put their faith in Him. And here is the kicker: that is exactly what the Bible says that God does.

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That God is good does not instantly take away his righteousness and justice. A God that is good will reward those that are His - that are covered in His righteousness in Christ. A God that is righteous and just will also reward those that are not His. Not merely by putting them to sleep, but, as it is written:

Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11b-15)

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So there is more than one death. There is more than hades and the grave. God is just and righteous. He will not merely allow those separated from him to sleep, but they will be judged and sentenced. And if that's a "problem", then it's a problem with scripture.

Timothew said:

One key issue to this is the fact that the Bible never once says that wicked people go to hell when they die where they will experience eternal conscious torment. However, the Bible does say many times that only those who trust in Jesus Christ will receive eternal life and those who reject him will not receive eternal life. They will perish. One verse out of many that say this is the most familiar verse in the Bible, John 3:16.

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I believe that you are mistaken about what the Bible says on this matter. That the damned are forever cast off is indeed in scripture but you have already committed yourself to re-writing it. More to the point, however, there doesn't seem to be a chance for a real discussion since we've been around this mulberry bush before and your stance is always to say "it doesn't mean that, no matter how many church leaders, theologians, and denominations throughout Christian history have said it does."

Timothew said:

I have never said that. I always just say what the Bible says.

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Excuse me, my friend, but that's exactly what I just wrote. You will always say that your interpretation of "just what the Bible says" goes against what almost everyone else thinks it means--including real experts and whole churches--so there is no way to have an actual discussion under those terms.

I've asked dozens of times for anyone to just show me the verse that says "the unrepentant will go to hell when they doe where they will be tormented alive forever".

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That's like a Muslim saying "Show me a verse wherein Jesus says 'I am God.'" You always phrase your request precisely to your benefit...in a way that you know the Bible does not word it. But that doesn't mean that the idea isn't to be found in scripture.

However, I do concede this point: you always include "torment" or something close to it as part of your contention. We do not know what being eternally lost actually feels like in Earthly terms. Many reputable theologians would agree with the idea that Hell is not an experience of pitchforks and everlasting fire. But as for the rest of the proposition (not eternal, etc.), no.

You have a couple of errors in what it is that you think I believe. The most obvious thing is that I don't believe that God merely puts the wicked to sleep. I believe (and I have said this before so you have no excuse) that the wicked will perish, they will be destroyed, and they will be no more. And this is exactly what the Bible says as well.

The second thing is that I do not believe that God's goodness takes away his righteousness and justice. I believe that the destruction of the wicked best shows God's righteousness and justice, and destruction certainly shows God's righteousness and justice better than eternal conscious torment, which is neither righteous or just. But your belief that the destruction of the wicked does not show God's righteousness and justice is immaterial. It doesn't matter what YOU think best shows God's justice and righteousness. What matters is what the Bible says. And the Bible says that the wicked will perish, they will destroyed, and they will be no more.

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And what you said right there at the end is what I have been screaming all this time in my mind but I don't think I could quite find the right words to properly convey it in a post. When people say God must still be holy and a righteous judge in order to justify eternal torment, then they are no less guilty of giving their opinion on what God's justice should be than we who believe in literal 2nd death and destruction are, and yet it's an argument hell proponents constantly use to tear down the opposing theologies of conditionalism and universalism: the old "Well, who are YOU to tell God that hell is unjust". Well, I don't remember God saying His sense of justice is eternal suffering anywehere, either, so, the traditional side has logical and emotional arguments just like we do, and in and of themselves that's not wrong. Humans were created with a brain for thinking, after all.

I especially don't know why, if eternal torment is true, that the Bible would EVER use a phrase like "no more" to describe the end fate of unbelievers. Also, I don't see how existence forever in hell solves the problem of evil, either. I could swear that the Bible has strongly suggested that God intends to put an end to it, someday.

Some people may not believe that a dishonorable and likely painful death (or destruction) is a "good enough" punishment for the unbelievers, but, well, it's the very first punishment God ever warned of since the beginning of creation for man sinning, in Genesis 2, "If you eat of that tree, you shall surely die." ... Now was there really supposed to be some hidden meaning there that actually describes a conscious eternal existence in some kind of painful separation from God? I mean, really? I accepted conditional immortality as the most accurate thelogical interpretation in part because, seriously, it's the simplest answer. It doesn't have near as many "problem verses" to explain and just seems the most consistent. ... And also, I'm not going to lie, the traditional view is why many people in this world live in constant fear and anxiety because of OCD problems over this, instead of being able to love and act for God. It's not good fruit that this teaching bears.