The Problem of Hell

[Eudaimonist]

Atheist are fools, but that doesn't mean we put ourselves above you.

And don't you see that we may think that Christians are mistaken about the existence of God, but that doesn't mean we put ourselves above you?

It's a matter of personal bias. You only think you're right because you're you.

I only speak for me. You do not.



eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Inviolable]

And don't you see that we may think that Christians are mistaken about the existence of God, but that doesn't mean we put ourselves above you?

Maybe not to our faces and maybe not all atheist. I read the God delusion "Well, less then half" and pretty much all Dawkins did was talk down to anyone in a religion. It's not about Christianity? Yeah right.
The man wants to exterminate Christianity.
That's all I see on these boards. The same tone and demeanor as the God delusion.
You can't tell me that the standard atheist credo is to, abolish religion and not think less of a person in one.

I only speak for me. You do not.



eudaimonia,

Mark

You mean I speak for God or that I'm making assumptions?

 

[SonicBOOM]

........and yet. Another great discussion thread reduced to childish behavior. I see why this section of the site is empty. I'll be leaving now

 

[Edial]

Is infinite torture acceptable punishment for finite sin?


Some opponents of the doctrine of hell claim that the punishment is disproportionate to any crimes that could be committed, an overkill Humans apparently can commit only a finite amount of sin, yet hell is an infinite punishment. In this vein, Jorge Luis Borges suggests in his essay La duración del Infierno that no transgression can warrant an infinite punishment on the grounds that there is no such thing as an "infinite transgression".

Hell is a literal environment where non-fleshly bodies would exist in a literal discomfort.

It is an environment, "a neighborhood" that deserves one's lifestyle.

Look at it as a stage 4 of human degradation by separating itself from God farther and farther away and the consequent environment that "fits" one's moral state.

Stage 1 - Garden of Eden.
Adam and Eve that lived in much better bodies and environment. An environment where Natural and Supernatural cohabitated in peace and harmony. God walking with them, vegetation that was giving eternal life, animals that talked and looked quiet different from what we see now, beauty, joy and a quiet interesting and fascinating life.
When Adam was told that rhey would die of they eat of that fruit - they did not believe it. They also apparently could not imagine the environment that they would inherit as mortals - today's Earth.

Stage 2 - Today's Earth.
Vegetation is just a shadow of what it once was. (On occasions however, we still do see glimmers of Heaven within an especially beautiful day. ).
Animals are dumb and looking really pityful. Our bodies are something that we rather hide in bulky clothing. And it's positive qualities are often painted in alluring or pornographic emphasys through revealing clothing, tattoos ... . Illnesses, hurt, betrayal, death of a loved one, tears, bad weather are a part of this environment.
We do not know what beauty is.
We are warned that the next stage would be worse.

Stage 3 - Realm of the Departed Dead (Hades or Sheol).
That place is a great equalizer. All the sins that one committed on this Earth will (in a way) come to life and form one's personal environment. Great sinners will burn, children will sleep, there will be discussions and arguments, lots of envy, ill will towards each other, there will be cities ... realm of the departed dead.
If there is a word to describe such a place, I would use a word "sad".
It's a sad place.
Yet there is even a worse environment.

Stage - Burning Lake. (Gehenna).
It is called a 2nd Death. Much deeper separation from God. No more grace left. One is left to the deepest desires of one's heart ... while that heart is already stone-cold. All the verses in the Gospels that talk about "weeping and gnashing of teeth" refer to that dreadful environment. However, in one of the verses it is presented that weeping and gnashing is not due to a mind numbing pain (as people often imaging), but to deep and unbridled envy of seeing the saints sitting with God in an incomparably better environment. Satan and devils and false prophet and the Beast will also share this final "neighborhood" and they will be quiet angry.

All these stages were formed into real environments, neighborhoods that we chose by "moving out" away from God.

But there is a choice, the Real Heaven and it's joy and true and endless beauty through Jesus Christ.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[griggs1947]

Jig and Gracchus, even the idea of Hell as mere separation is nonsensical.Even were we eternal, we still would not merit any Hell due to "sin." As Albert Ellis in that book of inspiration for that more abundant life affirms that we do good and we do wrong, never are we wholly one or the other.[ Some are ,however,quite evil I add.] To call us sinners is quite thus an overkill and - disproportionate.
I have no desire to be in a relationship with any imaginary being.
I 'm a free being, not a slave to any totalitarian being!Neither my parents who brought me into existence nor any other being can own me.And I owe no being worship nor has any being a right to send me to Hell.
It is fatuous then that we send ourselves there! For any God, it is the one-way street that I'll present @ the problem of Heaven. The problem of Hell adds to that egregious problem.
Since the pre-Socratics, Inviolable, we know that nothing means nothing, mere word play,sir.
Yes, we are non-prophet as we recognize objective reality,Inviolable. We recognize sophistry and what is so general that it can mean anything, stuff that happened after the fact and what never happened. Damascus still exists, for instance.
We are all-dressed up to do business with objective reality.
We have evidence and theory on our side rather than faith, the we just say so of credulity and we are in fox-holes [Remember Tillman.].

 

[NHI]

Is infinite torture acceptable punishment for finite sin?


Some opponents of the doctrine of hell claim that the punishment is disproportionate to any crimes that could be committed, an overkill Humans apparently can commit only a finite amount of sin, yet hell is an infinite punishment. In this vein, Jorge Luis Borges suggests in his essay La duración del Infierno that no transgression can warrant an infinite punishment on the grounds that there is no such thing as an "infinite transgression".

An infinite God can make an infinite judgement, and the Bible implies sin is an "infinite transgression" so Borges ground in of sand.

 

[JGL53]

An infinite God can make an infinite judgement, and the Bible implies sin is an "infinite transgression" so Borges ground in of sand.

Whatever.

The fact remains that hell can not be proven or disproven, only believed in, or disbelieved in.

I disbelieve in it. I think it an absurd idea.

Each person makes his own choice regarding belief in hell. I've made mine. You make yours.

Case closed.

 

[Washington]

An infinite God can make an infinite judgement, and the Bible implies sin is an "infinite transgression" so Borges ground in of sand.

Curious; what's an " infinite judgment," and what does "so Borges ground in of sand," mean?

 

[Optimax]

Is infinite torture acceptable punishment for finite sin?


Some opponents of the doctrine of hell claim that the punishment is disproportionate to any crimes that could be committed, an overkill Humans apparently can commit only a finite amount of sin, yet hell is an infinite punishment. In this vein, Jorge Luis Borges suggests in his essay La duración del Infierno that no transgression can warrant an infinite punishment on the grounds that there is no such thing as an "infinite transgression".

If that was the issue, might be.

Consider this as the issue.

First concerning Hell;

The Bible says that hell was not made for man.

Hell was made for the devil and those angels that followed him (about 1/3 of the angels), when he rebelled against God. He lost by the way.

Enter the problem for man.

When Adam chose to disobey God, there were some tremendous changes that occurred in man.

The one change we are dealing with here is the most important.
There is a lot more to this, however we are attempting not to write a book, just a "summary" of some things about man and hell.

The change was that man lost the connection he had with God and in the process of that became connected to satan.

The consequences of that was so far reaching into God's creation that God Himself would have to fix it.

God knew that was going to happen and in His Plan of Creation, the solution for the problem was already provided for. God himself would, when the time was right, would be born a man and pay the penalty for what Adam did. Thereby not only justifying man, but justifying himself as well for creating a being in his own image and likeness that was capable of such a catastrophic act.

The penalty Jesus paid in His Death, Burial and Resurrection, which included the shedding of His Own Blood, broke that connection with satan that Adam had established with his disobedience, making it possible for man to have a choice.

Man could choose to accept what Jesus did personally for himself, thereby having the connection to satan broken and a connection with God established.

OR:

Man could choose to reject Jesus not accepting what Jesus did for him, thereby allowing the connection with satan to remain unbroken.

A person that dies with a connection to satan intact receives the same "judgment" as satan.

Hell is a prison. It is a prison for rebellious spiritual outlaws, which satan is.

Man being made in the image and likeness of God was created a spirit, was given a soul, and put in a physical body for his life on earth.

At physical death the spirit and soul are separated from the body and can only go to one of two places.

Life forever with God.

life forever without God. That is Hell.

 

[Washington]

When Adam chose to disobey God, there were some tremendous changes that occurred in man.

And just why did god set him up to do so? Being omniscient, god knew full well that when he created A & E they would soon "disobey" him. It's almost sick when you think of it. It's like rescuing a kitten from drowning so you can pour lighter fluid on it and set it on fire.

But maybe you don't consider the Christian god to be omniscient, in which case you might consider Adam's ability to make a truly free choice, and whether god was just in punishing Adam for something he couldn't help doing.

 

[Penumbra]

If that was the issue, might be.

Consider this as the issue.

First concerning Hell;

The Bible says that hell was not made for man.

Hell was made for the devil and those angels that followed him (about 1/3 of the angels), when he rebelled against God. He lost by the way.

Enter the problem for man.

When Adam chose to disobey God, there were some tremendous changes that occurred in man.

The one change we are dealing with here is the most important.
There is a lot more to this, however we are attempting not to write a book, just a "summary" of some things about man and hell.

The change was that man lost the connection he had with God and in the process of that became connected to satan.

The consequences of that was so far reaching into God's creation that God Himself would have to fix it.

God knew that was going to happen and in His Plan of Creation, the solution for the problem was already provided for. God himself would, when the time was right, would be born a man and pay the penalty for what Adam did. Thereby not only justifying man, but justifying himself as well for creating a being in his own image and likeness that was capable of such a catastrophic act.

The penalty Jesus paid in His Death, Burial and Resurrection, which included the shedding of His Own Blood, broke that connection with satan that Adam had established with his disobedience, making it possible for man to have a choice.

Man could choose to accept what Jesus did personally for himself, thereby having the connection to satan broken and a connection with God established.

OR:

Man could choose to reject Jesus not accepting what Jesus did for him, thereby allowing the connection with satan to remain unbroken.

A person that dies with a connection to satan intact receives the same "judgment" as satan.

Hell is a prison. It is a prison for rebellious spiritual outlaws, which satan is.

Man being made in the image and likeness of God was created a spirit, was given a soul, and put in a physical body for his life on earth.

At physical death the spirit and soul are separated from the body and can only go to one of two places.

Life forever with God.

life forever without God. That is Hell.

Of course, if this deity made hell for his rebellious angels, but has perfect foresight, then he knew before he made it that humans would end up there as well.

To say he made it for one group and not the other (ie angels instead of humans), while knowing perfectly beforehand exactly who would end up there, is illogical. He would have made it for exactly those beings that he knew would end up there. (Unless of course the deity is not omniscient or lacks foresight.)

-Lyn

 

[Optimax]

And just why did god set him up to do so? Being omniscient, god knew full well that when he created A & E they would soon "disobey" him. It's almost sick when you think of it. It's like rescuing a kitten from drowning so you can pour lighter fluid on it and set it on fire.

But maybe you don't consider the Christian god to be omniscient, in which case you might consider Adam's ability to make a truly free choice, and whether god was just in punishing Adam for something he couldn't help doing.

I addressed that God was aware of that.

I c/p it for you here.

God knew that was going to happen and in His Plan of Creation, the solution for the problem was already provided for. God himself would, when the time was right, would be born a man and pay the penalty for what Adam did. Thereby not only justifying man, but justifying himself as well for creating a being in his own image and likeness that was capable of such a catastrophic act.

 

[Optimax]

Of course, if this deity made hell for his rebellious angels, but has perfect foresight, then he knew before he made it that humans would end up there as well.

To say he made it for one group and not the other (ie angels instead of humans), while knowing perfectly beforehand exactly who would end up there, is illogical. He would have made it for exactly those beings that he knew would end up there. (Unless of course the deity is not omniscient or lacks foresight.)

-Lyn

That was addressed in my post.

I c/p it here for you.

God knew that was going to happen and in His Plan of Creation, the solution for the problem was already provided for. God himself would, when the time was right, would be born a man and pay the penalty for what Adam did. Thereby not only justifying man, but justifying himself as well for creating a being in his own image and likeness that was capable of such a catastrophic act.

God does not force any one to do anything.

He left a choice for man.

Man can choose if he wants to spend eternity with God

OR:

Not.

 

[Washington]

I addressed that God was aware of that.

I c/p it for you here.

God knew that was going to happen and in His Plan of Creation, the solution for the problem was already provided for. God himself would, when the time was right, would be born a man and pay the penalty for what Adam did. Thereby not only justifying man, but justifying himself as well for creating a being in his own image and likeness that was capable of such a catastrophic act.

That's interesting. I've never seen anyone take the notion of god's grand play this far. So, Adam didn't really choose to disobey god anymore than Marlon Brando chose to say "I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse." It's all part of the script, which, of course, in the play LIFE also includes god in the role of the martyr Jesus. Gotta wonder if he was nervous before going on.

Yet, I have to wonder where all this justifying stuff comes into play. Care to explain why anyone needed to be justified, and what the "catastrophic act" was? From what I can tell, everything has gone according to plan--- considering who the producer/director is, how could it not?

 

[Penumbra]

That was addressed in my post.

I c/p it here for you.



God does not force any one to do anything.

He left a choice for man.

Man can choose if he wants to spend eternity with God

OR:

Not.

Yes, but the point is that God knows before hand what each person will choose, assuming that he is all-knowing. Whether he made it for angels or humans is irrelevant, since he presumably knows who will end up there. A subset of Christians have a habit of using stories to evade God's responsibility for hell's existence. This is natural, since an all-loving being is difficult to mesh with an existence of a permanently awful place. Many of them try to come up with concepts about hell got here- like he made it only for the angels originally, and it's our fault we end up there.

The question that's always been around is why God would make anyone suffer, regardless of what type of being they are. What can God get out of it, other than a sensation of fulfilled sadism?

It doesn't make sense to say that people can "choose" to be with God or not, since there are competing religions all saying that if you choose their path, you'll be with God, and that if you choose a wrong path, you won't be. It's a matter of rolling a pair of dice and seeing if you "pick" the right one. That is unless, you have a better way of discerning truth, and if that's the case, I just so happen to have a thread about discerning truth that you are welcome to contribute to.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7429365/

Unless someone can offer a rather effective way of discerning truth, then what God is punishing people for is basically that they got a bad dice roll in which religion they selected or where they were born.

Another question one should ask is why man should want to spend eternity with God? If someone were to ask me whether I want to spend time with this deity, I would instinctively ask about God.

If someone says, well, he's the most loving and wise thing in all of existence, and being with him fills you with unending bliss, and he can offer an infinite number of miraculous creations that are above your most wildest dreams, then yeah, I might think that sounds like a pretty good way to spend my time.

If someone says, well, he's this deity that commands that you love him and obey him. If you do, he lets you stay with him. If you don't, well, he'll torture you or leave you in a place that is horrible forever. He's jealous, too, so make sure you keep reminding him that you love him. Then I might think, well, that doesn't sound like a being I want anything to do with.

Some Christians have better pitches than others, it seems.

-Lyn

 

[Miss Elly]

One problem I've always had with hell is, if I'm going to hell because I don't believe in God.. doesn't that turn Heaven into Hell for my Mom/Dad?

If your parents are in heaven, they will be caught up with the happiness of Christ, they will not be able to feel any sorrow or misery. The bible says God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. Somehow we will understand how great the sacrifice Christ made for sinners and the perfect justice handed out because they rejected it and went into eternal torment.

 

[Ariellamb]

Signature says it all.

The Necessity & Severity of Eternal Hell can never be understood by a mortal who has no comprehension of an Infinite God's view,as to the enormity of Sin

 

[Penumbra]

If your parents are in heaven, they will be caught up with the happiness of Christ, they will not be able to feel any sorrow or misery. The bible says God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. Somehow we will understand how great the sacrifice Christ made for sinners and the perfect justice handed out because they rejected it and went into eternal torment.

See, that's the kind of thing I have trouble understanding.

Many Christians say that the people in heaven will not be bothered by the suffering in hell. Yet for me, knowing that other conscious beings are suffering eternally, I could not be happy. The way it is described here, the type of people that "fit" into heaven are only those that are so shallow, so blindly focused on their own selves, that the thoughts of even those closest to them vanish. And apparently if someone is not like that, they become like that in heaven.

Heaven as described as a transformational process that will make even the most loving of parents forget the love of their child sounds more like hell to me.

People who market this concept reverse the positions of heaven and hell in my eyes, and it saddens me to see people comfortable with this sort of view.

-Lyn

 

[Optimax]

That's interesting. I've never seen anyone take the notion of god's grand play this far. So, Adam didn't really choose to disobey god anymore than Marlon Brando chose to say "I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse." It's all part of the script, which, of course, in the play LIFE also includes god in the role of the martyr Jesus. Gotta wonder if he was nervous before going on.

Yet, I have to wonder where all this justifying stuff comes into play. Care to explain why anyone needed to be justified, and what the "catastrophic act" was? From what I can tell, everything has gone according to plan--- considering who the producer/director is, how could it not?

Understand what you are saying.

Consider that God created Adam in His own likeness and image.

That boils down to that Man was created in the highest position in creation.

God did not create Adam and Eve as Robots, incapable of choice.

The ability to make ones own decisions is tremendous.

Sure has got me in problems at times.

God gave Adam a will, the ability to choose. If God had not given him that ability then Adam would not be what God Purposed when He created Man.

God wanted a being that he could fellowship with. Remember before Adam "fell" he and God walked together in the cool of the day.

God knowing what Adam would do, does not mean that Adam had to disobey.

God told him to guard the garden. Adam was warned that there was an enemy to guard against. He should have kicked Satan out of his garden and went and eaten of the Tree of Life, instead of the other tree.

On Justifying.

Adam having disobeyed God made the worst decision a man could ever have possibly made. It amounted to "high treason". A betrayal beyond imagination, having turned his back on his own creator and chosen God's enemy.

God by becoming a man and paying the penalty for Adam,s transgression justified or gave Man right standing with Him so that man could be reconciled to God, no longer separated from God by that connection to Satan that Adam caused.

BECAUSE;

Every person that has ever lived or will live was from Adam and Eve. All was born with that connection to Satan.

When a person chooses to accept what Jesus did, breaking that connection to Satan and immediately becoming connected to God they then spend from now own with God.

Hope that helps explain it some.

I had the same questions you do.

Took some years to find the explanations of the significance of what happened to Adam in the garden when he disobeyed and why Jesus had to do what He did.

 

[Washington]

God knowing what Adam would do, does not mean that Adam had to disobey.

And if Adam chose NOT to disobey what does this say about god's omniscience? It would be faulty, and by the definition of omniscience this can't be true. So, there is no way Adam could not have done as he did, because god had already "seen" him do it (that's part and parcel of being omniscient). You can't have it both ways: an omniscient god, AND an Adam who could have done differently. The script was writ and the players preformed their parts as they had to. But like I said before, if you don't consider god to be all-knowing--- a god lesser than that claimed by most Christians---then it's another story.