The Problem of Hell

[Gareth]

If humans were able to go to hell, would animals be able to as well?

That might be an interesting thought. If the postman for his evil deeds is punished by going to hell, then a dog that bit him might also join him in hell. Since going to hell constitutes spending an awful long time there, i.e. for eternity, then there will be some interesting love/hate relationships developing. If hell is a real place (and it isn't, I'm just going with the flow) I wonder if all the lawyers there do mediation classes?

 

[PoetaeRomanae]

If you were Noah and his family, who were supposed to start the process of populating the earth again after the great flood (assuming it existed the way the Torah describes it), and if you in some way could see to the future where millions of people would be gnashing their teeth and moaning in pain for eternity with no possible way out as an inevitable consequence of populating the earth, what would you do? Decide not to procreate and continue your family line and the humankind because of what you saw in the future? Would God punish you for that? Would He make you gnash your teeth and moan in pain for eternity for that?

 

[griggs1947]

Yeshua announced, in effect, the divine protection racket!
The evangel is that if we follow the presumptions of naturalism and rationalism, we can lead decent, abundant lives as Robert Price proclaims in "The Reason-Driven Life"
and Albert Ellis proclaims in " The Myth of Self-Esteem," where he reprimands atheist Ayn Rand and reveals the insufficiency of Yeshua's message of acceptance.
Farvel.

 

[Eudaimonist]

The evangel is that if we follow the presumptions of naturalism and rationalism, we can lead decent, abundant lives as Robert Price proclaims in "The Reason-Driven Life"
and Albert Ellis proclaims in " The Myth of Self-Esteem," where he reprimands atheist Ayn Rand and reveals the insufficiency of Yeshua's message of acceptance.

And as Ayn Rand proclaimed in her works. She also said that if we follow the presumptions of naturalism and rationality, we can lead decent, abundant lives.

Ayn Rand and Albert Ellis may have had some disagreements on some issues, but please don't suggest that Ayn Rand was somehow an opponent of decent, abundant lives, or of naturalism or rationality.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[maybenotcrazy]

Well. If you view hell as a punishment rather than as a state of being that is perhaps akin to not making it to a good college or as a state akin to not becoming rich in this life or as a state akin to being sorry for not accepting your offer of grace given you in this life (which I'm not sure I myself have accepted properly) then you are more on the right track than calling it punishment. Hell is probably not literally a fire burning, probably not literally what some would want you to believe. There is an element of islam in the view that it is such a place. I see it more and more as simply a place where the love of God is viewed as repulsive because grace was not accepted- a place where say you feel about God's love the way you feel about an unwanted advance by someone (sorry to put it so crudely) a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth because one wishes in their life they were more receptive to God's offer of grace rather than where one suffers too much- like torture. The torment in hell may more be mental than physical- though I certainly wouldn't want to be in a place where the demons are kept. Some of those are pretty darn bad if you ask me- I mean terrible. And they will influence your and other people's behavior much like they do on earth and make you mean to each other. I don't discount the possibility though that hell, though being of infinite duration is a place that people can leave. Some saints have said that eventually all creation will be saved. The bible logically doesn't omit this possibility though I would not hang my hat on it. If you don't want to go there (Well first of all it is a christian concept made far more vicious in islam a religion that emphasizes God's hatred of humanity rather than love)- so if you assume it exists you are already a christian or even muslim- but you are better believing in God and loving him if you have any doubt rather than getting bogged down on how unjust God is. That is a fallacy and a dangerous one. One the devil is laughing at you for. (though you may laugh) So be wise. God isn't the one who is in the wrong if you or I end up there it is our fault.

 

[JGL53]

...Ayn Rand and Albert Ellis may have had some disagreements on some issues...

"Some" disagreements? See "Is Objectivism a Religion?" by Ellis.

......but please don't suggest that Ayn Rand was somehow an opponent of decent, abundant lives, or of naturalism or rationality...

Just in her own personal life. E.g., she was a despicable narcissist.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I can't deal with Rand-haters right now. Continue with your hate as you like.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[JGL53]

I can't deal with Rand-haters right now. Continue with your hate as you like.


eudaimonia,

Mark

What irony - I don't deal with sycophantic Ayn Rand apologists particularly well.

But continue with your apologies as required.



Or you can read Ellis's book and find out what a fool your hero really was.



Plus, her novels were B-O-R-I-N-G.

 

[Tikiman06]

What irony - I don't deal with sycophantic Ayn Rand apologists particularly well.

But continue with your apologies as required.



Or you can read Ellis's book and find out what a fool your hero really was.



Plus, her novels were B-O-R-I-N-G.

And the insults begin. I hate to join in on an argument, but merely from observation, the point of this post was to insult, provoke, and otherwise make eudamonia look foolish? I do hope you realize that by continuing in your "hate" as he put it, you are only playing further into his description of you?

 

[JGL53]

And the insults begin. I hate to join in on an argument, but merely from observation, the point of this post was to insult, provoke, and otherwise make eudamonia look foolish? I do hope you realize that by continuing in your "hate" as he put it, you are only playing further into his description of you?

But it is all predestined. Please do not offend the omniscience of god. Thank you.

 

[Blackmarch]

Is infinite torture acceptable punishment for finite sin?


Some opponents of the doctrine of hell claim that the punishment is disproportionate to any crimes that could be committed, an overkill Humans apparently can commit only a finite amount of sin, yet hell is an infinite punishment. In this vein, Jorge Luis Borges suggests in his essay La duración del Infierno that no transgression can warrant an infinite punishment on the grounds that there is no such thing as an "infinite transgression".

Save for the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.... Which requires very serious effort to be able to cross, as well as posessing of enough knowledge of God... an infinite (time) punishment is is not just for a finite sin. But then I do not think that eternal is referring to time in this regards.

 

[JGL53]

Save for the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.... Which requires very serious effort to be able to cross, as well as posessing of enough knowledge of God... an infinite (time) punishment is is not just for a finite sin. But then I do not think that eternal is referring to time in this regards.

Whatever. I just want to know - which verse in the bible guarantees all male true believers each his own planet in the next life? Or is that one in the BOM?

 

[Blackmarch]

Whatever. I just want to know - which verse in the bible guarantees all male true believers each his own planet in the next life? Or is that one in the BOM?

I do not see what that has to do with this thread. If you have questions in specific regards to LDS theology I do suggest you take such to the unorthodox theology forum or PM me or start a different thread that is worded so that it could be in the philosophy forum.

As to your question-
it's nowhere. That's generally used as propaganda by those who wish to tear down LDS theologies.

 

[JGL53]

I do not see what that has to do with this thread. If you have questions in specific regards to LDS theology I do suggest you take such to the unorthodox theology forum or PM me or start a different thread that is worded so that it could be in the philosophy forum...

Your beliefs regarding the sin against the Holy Ghost, or the reality of the H.G., or how infinite punishment relates to finite sin, and so forth - does not all this come from your "faith"? And isn't your faith of one piece? Are you ashamed of your faith? If not, why is this thread not a proper place to defend it? What are you afraid of? Can I destroy your faith? How exactly would that work? If not, then let's discuss your particular theology as A WHOLE.

As to your question-
it's nowhere. That's generally used as propaganda by those who wish to tear down LDS theologies.

If LDS theology is true there is NO WAY I can "tear it down", no matter how hard I try. So what is there to fear?

But I seek to tear down nothing. A theology is true or it is false - as a whole. Truth cannot be torn down or destroyed. Those of weak faith fear destruction.

E.g., Baptists and Catholics on this forum generally stand up to any questions. What is your particular problem?

Personally, I LIKE the idea of having my own planet after I presumably ascend into the divine realm after my "bodily death". If there is something I can do to achieve such a goal - and you know how - I think it rather petty of you not to share the information.

That is all, friend.

 

[Blackmarch]

Your beliefs regarding the sin against the Holy Ghost, or the reality of the H.G., or how infinite punishment relates to finite sin, and so forth - does not all this come from your "faith"?

it is.

And isn't your faith of one piece?

as far as I know it is.

Are you ashamed of your faith?

no

If not, why is this thread not a proper place to defend it?

this thread is the proper place to discuss the points that touch upon Hell.

What are you afraid of?

dunno yet no one here has brought up anything that has me afraid.

Can I destroy your faith?

I doubt it... however whether or not one can or not has not prevented others from attempting to do so. And so far you haven't done anything that would be indicative that you are of that sort. I was saying that's generally where the information about people having planets comes from, and it's not exactly accurate.

How exactly would that work?

If a person can get a believer to doubt then fear, such will eventually replace faith.

If not, then let's discuss your particular theology as A WHOLE.

I don't mind doing so, however covering every point on this thread would be be both rude to the person who as far as I can tell was just wanting opinons in regards to hell, as well as there being more appropriate forums for covering the whole shebang.
To avoid being rude and for etiquette's sake is why I suggested alternatives for discussing such.

If LDS theology is true there is NO WAY I can "tear it down", no matter how hard I try. So what is there to fear?

I'm not fearing anything I'm respecting both the rules and the person who started this thread.

But I seek to tear down nothing. A theology is true or it is false - as a whole. Truth cannot be torn down or destroyed. Those of weak faith fear destruction.

good to hear. Whether something can be done or not does not prevent people from trying.

E.g., Baptists and Catholics on this forum generally stand up to any questions. What is your particular problem?

Good question- what is my problem...? I wasn't aware of one. I specifically answered the question you asked, I don't see how there is one.

Personally, I LIKE the idea of having my own planet after I presumably ascend into the divine realm after my "bodily death". If there is something I can do to achieve such a goal - and you know how - I think it rather petty of you not to share the information.

there is nothing wrong with that belief and may even be sensible, and when considered and compared with having an eternal life with God, it is pretty insignificant. However you asked for me to show where scriptures state that people get their own planets, the answer of which there is none, nowhere is that mentioned.

That is all, friend.

thank you I look forward to either your reply.

 

[JGL53]

Please point out the errors, if any, in this rendition of the LDS faith:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5dscqcNOGM


So - if Mormons, e.g., believe that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, then why should any of us take seriously anything whatsoever you offer up as an opinion on the possibility of Hell? I.e., if Jesus and Lucifer (Satan now) ARE brothers, then doesn't that throw a huge logical wrench into the whole ethical question of Hell - from a orthodox Christian perspective, the starting point for discussion with liberal Christians, atheists, or those who follow non-Christian traditions without an eternal Hell concept, e.g., Buddhism?

 

[Blackmarch]

Please point out the errors, if any, in this rendition of the LDS faith:

errors found about their claims;
-LDS teach that there are billions of planets ruled by billions of Gods
-That Elohim was concieved by a God and God's wife
-THat God was elevated to godhood from practicing mormon doctrine
-That God has many wives
-that God lives on/near kolob
-that God has sex
-that blacks were neutral or or otherwise not as accepting of God
-that God was Adam
-That Christ had or didn't have wives and children, or that Joseph claimed to be descended of such.
-that Joseph will be judging mankind
-that when they are married that they believe they will become polygamous gods
-That what was planned in heaven was voted on, that Lucifer offered to make everyone gods without their choice, and etc..
In short this video is a slander of the LDS, made to misdirect and confuse.


Don't you think it's funny that they have to resort to doing an animation, rather than sneaking a camera into places, or showing the LDS texts, or interviewing LDS?

So - if Mormons, e.g., believe that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, then why should any of us take seriously anything whatsoever you offer up as an opinion on the possibility of Hell?

LDS believe that everyone was at one time organised into a family, including you, me, Christ and Lucifer. but Lucifer rejected everything and took a 3rd part of heaven after him. Now does that still make him a brother, and if so how would it change things?
See Isaiah 14:12, Luke 10:18, and revelations chapter 12

I.e., if Jesus and Lucifer (Satan now) ARE brothers, then doesn't that throw a huge logical wrench into the whole ethical question of Hell -..

how so?

.. from a orthodox Christian perspective, the starting point for discussion with liberal Christians, atheists, or those who follow non-Christian traditions without an eternal Hell concept, e.g., Buddhism?

Many who are not of the Christian faith find that various Christian doctrine(s) of Hell already has large logical wrenches thrown in it, from their perspective.

 

[Vigilante]

Plus, her novels were B-O-R-I-N-G.

I tried to read Atlas Shrugged three times. I made it to page 280-something the third time before I had to stop. Again.

Terrible, terrible writing.

Personally, I LIKE the idea of having my own planet after I presumably ascend into the divine realm after my "bodily death".

I don't know. Climate change? Business cycles? Death and taxes? Maybe just a small moon with a Starbucks. That would be nice.

 

[JGL53]

…LDS believe that everyone was at one time organized into a family, including you, me, Christ and Lucifer. but Lucifer rejected everything and took a 3rd part of heaven after him. Now does that still make him a brother, and if so how would it change things?... .

Case closed. No further comment needed on my end.

…Many who are not of the Christian faith find that various Christian doctrine(s) of Hell already has large logical wrenches thrown in it, from their perspective.

From the perspective of the majority of Christians too, apparently, if polls I’ve seen are correct. I even saw a poll a while back showing that a majority of Christians today even think non-Christians make it to heaven if they are good people, i.e., belief in Christ as god and savior is optional. Well, at least they don't think Jesus and Lucifer were brothers - that seems too whack for most folks, Christian or not.

 

[Blackmarch]

Case closed. No further comment needed on my end.

so all you've wanted to do is just rant? Why would it be case closed?

From the perspective of the majority of Christians too, apparently, if polls I’ve seen are correct. I even saw a poll a while back showing that a majority of Christians today even think non-Christians make it to heaven if they are good people, i.e., belief in Christ as god and savior is optional. Well, at least they don't think Jesus and Lucifer were brothers - that seems too whack for most folks, Christian or not.

[/quote]
so? there are many strange things that are in or out of religion.
what's your point?