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I'm not trying to lecture you or condemn you, I just really hope you are careful about how you approach the Christian faith and those who are not Christians. It is important to search the Scriptures and pray for discernment, but we are also not to test God.
For something that is unfalsifiable, virtually anything can be seen as evidence.Well, I will digress for now. My experiment is complete and has further provided evidence of the existence of the Holy Spirit. Thank you.
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Thank you for your response. The main questions it raises is the topic of predestination of the elect. Specifically the kind St. Augustine believed. Not to be mistaken for the dual-predestination that Calvin followed.Since I took part in this experiment (albeit late), however before I read this post I'll respond in kind.
Some atheists on here rightfully felt that they weren't comfortable typing that in, because it is not what they believe. It's not because they are incapable of doing so, it's because they felt they would be making a dishonest statement.
I thought I saw where you were going with this, as I also know that piece of scripture. I clearly don't believe, however I also have no problems typing the words "Jesus is Lord" on request. I don't believe that to be true, however I can write those words out.
However, I can also type "Muhammad is Lord", "Zeus is Lord", "Vishnu is Lord", etc. It's all the same, none have any particular special meaning.
To help you gather data points, when I was very young my family used to go to church (Presbyterian) and at one point I considered myself Christian. However I was quite young, and simply believed because I assumed the things that I had been taught in Sunday School and whatnot were true. My family was never really religious and stopped going to church somewhere around the time I was age 8-10, and by the time I hit my teenage years I described myself as agnostic. Religion was never really a concern to me, I didn't necessarily believe anymore, but I considered it a bit of an open question.
I had my first girlfriend at age 17, and she happened to go to the church my family used to go to. So, I went along with her family to get more of a "grown up" perspective on things and to take a real look at it. I even got involved with the youth group for a time, and played a song or two for the congregation on clarinet as part of the music group. Overall, it was a fun time.
However, when I started examining the claims the religion made, and the associated theology, it raised some big credibility problems. However, researching things back in the late 90s and early 2000's wasn't as easy as it is today. The internet was a thing, but there wasn't nearly as much info, and the info that was there was harder to find. I knew enough that I came to definitively reject Christianity as it had been presented to me, but there were still a lot of unanswered questions about other possible interpretations, or even other religions.
I still referred to myself as agnostic in those days, simply because I didn't understand what an atheist was. I was going under the common, but incorrect definition that an agnostic is someone who doesn't have a belief either way, and an atheist is someone who thinks with 100% certainty that there isn't a god.
I can remember reading "The God Delusion" shortly after it came out, and became aware of the actual definition of atheism, which is someone that does not have a theological belief. I can remember thinking to myself "Oh, well in that case, I actually fit the definition of atheist". I've called myself an atheist ever since that moment. In reality, I was an atheist without knowing it back well into my teenage years, probably somewhere around the time I started calling myself agnostic, which may have been 14-15ish, however I can't really remember for certain.
Anyway, as you can tell, I never really went through an indoctrination. If anything, I had fun while I was affiliated with the youth programs at the church, but once I hit the age of reason I never really bought what they were trying to sell. Once I started trying to learn more about it, it became more and more unbelievable. It's remained somewhat of a fascination for me since those days however, I'm a bit of a history buff as it is, so I like reading into the history of the christian religion and where certain beliefs and ideas came from. There's a lot of interesting stuff out there, and occasionally on forums like this I'll hear a new perspective or idea I was not previously familiar with.
So, I don't really hold the bible in any special reverence. Scriptures, and words like "Jesus is Lord" are just that... words. There's no reason to believe some mystical spirit or force exists that would prevent me from typing them.
Faith is based on trust with a lack of knowledge and understanding. For a Christian to have faith, we trust even though we do not understand.
Unquestionably, faith is the essence of the Christian life. Faith is exhorted throughout the Bible and is presented as an absolute necessity. In fact, “without faith, it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6). The entire chapter of Hebrews 11 is about faith and those who possessed it. Faith is a gift from God, as we see in Ephesians 2:8–9 and not something we come up with on our own. All Christians have received the gift of faith from God, and faith is part of the armor of God—the shield with which we protect ourselves from the “flaming arrows of the evil one” (Ephesians 6:16).
The Bible never exhorts us to have “childlike” faith, at least not in so many words. In Matthew 18:2 Jesus says that we must “become as little children” in order to enter the kingdom of God. The context of Jesus’ statement is the disciples’ question, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” (verse 1). In response, Jesus “called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: ‘Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me’” (verses 2–5).
So, as the disciples focus on what constitutes “greatness” in heaven, Jesus provides a new perspective: the way “up” is “down.” Meekness is required (cf. Matthew 5:5). Jesus exhorts the disciples (and us) to seek to possess a childlike modesty in addition to their faith. Those who willingly take the lowest position are the greatest in heaven’s eyes. A young child is destitute of ambition, pride, and haughtiness and is therefore a good example for us. Children are characteristically humble and teachable. They aren’t prone to pride or hypocrisy. Humility is a virtue rewarded by God; as James says, “Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up” (James 4:10).
Although faith is not mentioned in Matthew 18:1–5, we know that it isn’t just humility that ushers a person into heaven; it is faith in the Son of God. A humble, unpretentious faith could rightly be called a “childlike faith.” When Jesus wanted to bless the children, He said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it” (Mark 10:14–15). How does a child receive a gift? With openness, honesty, and unbridled joy. That type of happy authenticity should be a hallmark of our faith as we receive God’s gift in Christ.
Of course, children are easily fooled and led astray. In their artlessness they tend to miss the truth and be drawn to myths and fantasies. But that is not what is meant by having a childlike faith. Jesus promoted a humble, honest faith in God, and He used the innocence of a child as an example. Emulating the faith of children, we should simply take God at His Word. As children trust their earthly fathers, we should trust that our “Father in heaven [will] give good gifts to those who ask him” (Matthew 7:11).
Thank you for your response. The main questions it raises is the topic of predestination of the elect. Specifically the kind St. Augustine believed. Not to be mistaken for the dual-predestination that Calvin followed.
Success!And people ask why atheists don't believe in the claims made by Christians. Exhibit A right above . . .
Success!
Obviously you don't understand my response, so I will explain: If we who know God give our witness and it is received by some and rejected by others...we have been successful, because God is not the God of the dead, but (only) the God of the living. Matthew 22:32Are you an atheist disguised as a Christian who is trying to convert Christians into atheists?
No, I mean, in your theology; is there any act of evil that one can commit that would, say, preclude one from being able to enter "Heaven"?Generally speaking, bad things happen to yourself and others. You name it. Although everything cannot be blamed on evil. I admit that sometimes bad things happen. Acts of nature for example.
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Obviously you don't understand my response, so I will explain: If we who know God give our witness and it is received by some and rejected by others...we have been successful, because God is not the God of the dead, but (only) the God of the living. Matthew 22:32
Our witness that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. 1 John 4:2
Perhaps, yes...in a backward sort of way. But that is not what I said or meant. The success for us is in the telling. The success of conviction...is not our part.You are successful when you convince people that you are talking nonsense?
Perhaps, yes...in a backward sort of way. But that is not what I said or meant. The success for us is in the telling. The success of conviction...is not our part.
There are two possible explanations. You have found just one.A perfect example of why many atheists are not christians. When you measure success by your ability to talk nonsense, it is a rather strong indication that those beliefs are based on nonsense.
Not that I can think of. The closest thing would be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. However, you actually cannot do that unless Jesus performed a miracle right in front of your eyes and accused him of using demons.No, I mean, in your theology; is there any act of evil that one can commit that would, say, preclude one from being able to enter "Heaven"?
So then no consequences for doing evil. What then was this "justice" that you alluded to earlier about?Not that I can think of. The closest thing would be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. However, you actually cannot do that unless Jesus performed a miracle right in front of your eyes and accused him of using demons.
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There are two possible explanations. You have found just one.
Yes...don't you see - you seal your own conviction through your reaction?You count it as a success when you convince me that you are talking nonsense.
Yes...don't you see - you seal your own conviction through your reaction?
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