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The Bible describes God as holy (Isaiah 6:3), righteous (Psalm 7:11), just (Deuteronomy 32:4), and sovereign (Daniel 4:17-25). These attributes tell us the following about God: (1) God is capable of preventing evil, and (2) God desires to rid the universe of evil. So, if both of these are true, why does God allow evil? If God has the power to prevent evil and desires to prevent evil, why does He still allow evil? Perhaps a practical way to look at this question would be to consider some alternative ways people might have God run the world:
1) God could change everyone’s personality so that they cannot sin. This would also mean that we would not have a free will. We would not be able to choose right or wrong because we would be “programmed” to only do right. Had God chosen to do this, there would be no meaningful relationships between Him and His creation.
Instead, God made Adam and Eve innocent but with the ability to choose good or evil. Because of this, they could respond to His love and trust Him or choose to disobey. They chose to disobey. Because we live in a real world where we can choose our actions but not their consequences, their sin affected those who came after them (us). Similarly, our decisions to sin have an impact on us and those around us and those who will come after us.
2) God could compensate for people’s evil actions through supernatural intervention 100 percent of the time. God would stop a drunk driver from causing an automobile accident. God would stop a lazy construction worker from doing a substandard job on a house that would later cause grief to the homeowners. God would stop a father who is addicted to drugs or alcohol from doing any harm to his wife, children, or extended family. God would stop gunmen from robbing convenience stores. God would stop high school bullies from tormenting the brainy kids. God would stop thieves from shoplifting. And, yes, God would stop terrorists from flying airplanes into buildings.
While this solution sounds attractive, it would lose its attractiveness as soon as God’s intervention infringed on something we wanted to do. We want God to prevent horribly evil actions, but we are willing to let “lesser-evil” actions slide—not realizing that those “lesser-evil” actions are what usually lead to the “greater-evil” actions. Should God only stop actual sexual affairs, or should He also block our access to pornography or end any inappropriate, but not yet sexual, relationships? Should God stop “true” thieves, or should He also stop us from cheating on our taxes? Should God only stop murder, or should He also stop the “lesser-evil” actions done to people that lead them to commit murder? Should God only stop acts of terrorism, or should He also stop the indoctrination that transformed a person into a terrorist?
3) Another choice would be for God to judge and remove those who choose to commit evil acts. The problem with this possibility is that there would be no one left, for God would have to remove us all. We all sin and commit evil acts (Romans 3:23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8). While some people are more evil than others, where would God draw the line? Ultimately, all evil causes harm to others.
Instead of these options, God has chosen to create a “real” world in which real choices have real consequences. In this real world of ours, our actions affect others. Because of Adam’s choice to sin, the world now lives under the curse, and we are all born with a sin nature (Romans 5:12). There will one day come a time when God will judge the sin in this world and make all things new, but He is purposely “delaying” in order to allow more time for people to repent so that He will not need to condemn them (2 Peter 3:9). Until then, He IS concerned about evil. When He created the Old Testament laws, the goal was to discourage and punish evil. He judges nations and rulers who disregard justice and pursue evil. Likewise, in the New Testament, God states that it is the government’s responsibility to provide justice in order to protect the innocent from evil (Romans 13). He also promises severe consequences for those who commit evil acts, especially against the "innocent" (Mark 9:36-42).
In summary, we live in a real world where our good and evil actions have direct consequences and indirect consequences upon us and those around us. God’s desire is that for all of our sakes we would obey Him that it might be well with us (Deuteronomy 5:29). Instead, what happens is that we choose our own way, and then we blame God for not doing anything about it. Such is the heart of sinful man. But Jesus came to change men’s hearts through the power of the Holy Spirit, and He does this for those who will turn from evil and call on Him to save them from their sin and its consequences (2 Corinthians 5:17). God does prevent and restrain some acts of evil. This world would be MUCH WORSE were not God restraining evil. At the same time, God has given us the ability to choose good and evil, and when we choose evil, He allows us, and those around us, to suffer the consequences of evil. Rather than blaming God and questioning God on why He does not prevent all evil, we should be about the business of proclaiming the cure for evil and its consequences—Jesus Christ!
I mean without the inclination to do "evil". So unless it's your contention that I don't possess free will because I have zero inclination to molest a child, or murder someone, etc. then you have to admit that I absolutely can have free will and yet not do "evil".
Inability to have inclinations is hardly true free will.
True free will?
What is "just" about everyone carrying the blame for a sin Adam and Eve did? In your opinion, is it just to punish people for a crime one of their ancestors committed?
Likewise, why would god create Adam and Eve knowing they were going to sin? Why not create a world where that doesn't happen?
Well, to be fair, the topic of this thread is "the problem of evil". The reason why atheists (and some Christians) would raise the point that either god was said to have done bad things, or allowed bad things to happen is because that's the whole point of this philosophical exercise.
What do you mean by "free will"?
We all posses free will...period
Do you not know those aren't the only things that are considered evil in the sight of God. You pick and choose a couple of things that no one in their right mind does and forget about the rest? Seriously? No, I far from have to admit that.
If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.What do you mean by "free will"?
You'd have to ask Kenny'sID, it's his coinage. I've yet to hear a coherent definition of free will, let alone 'true' free will.I guess you'd have to define what you mean by it ?
These are fine distinctions. Where should one draw the line between being 'forced... by some external threat', and freely choosing to act in response to some external threat? If you're indoctrinated with some moral code, are your choices, that feel free, really forced? If you make a free choice and you later discover the circumstances were manipulated to get you to make that particular choice, was it really free, or were you forced?If you merely mean unconstrained choice... then there isn't such a thing in both realities of our brain and that of a computer. If you mean a choice that isn't forced in any way by some external threat, etc ... and merely an expression of inherent "preset beliefs of a person", then both computer and people exercise free will in such context.
Like putting the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil out of reachLikewise, why would god create Adam and Eve knowing they were going to sin? Why not create a world where that doesn't happen?
However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.
Reread my response to the question about "why did god create Adam and Eve if He knew they would sin?". It isn't that hard. Just scroll a few posts up on #826.A nature that could have been different. Or do you believe your god was limited in power as to how humans were created?
Like putting the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil out of reach
Reread my response to the question about "why did god create Adam and Eve if He knew they would sin?". It isn't that hard. Just scroll a few posts up on #826.
The Bible says, “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). It was through Adam that sin entered the world. When Adam sinned, he immediately died spiritually—his relationship with God was broken—and he also began dying physically—his body began the process of growing old and dying. From that point on, every person born has inherited Adam’s sin nature and suffered the same consequences of spiritual and physical death.
We are born physically alive but spiritually dead. This is why Jesus told Nicodemus, “You must be born again” (John 3:7). Physical birth provides us with a sinful human nature; spiritual rebirth provides us with a new nature, “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24).
It may not seem fair to be saddled with Adam’s sin nature, but it’s eminently consistent with other aspects of human propagation. We inherit physical characteristics such as eye color from our parents, and we also inherit their spiritual characteristics. Why should the passing on of spiritual traits be any different from the transmission of physical traits? We may complain about having brown eyes when we wanted blue, but our eye color is simply a matter of genetics. In the same way, having a sin nature is a matter of “spiritual genetics”; it’s a natural part of life.
However, the Bible says we are sinners by deed as well as by nature. We are sinners twice over: we sin because we are sinners (Adam’s choice), and we are sinners because we sin (our choice). “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). We are more than potential sinners; we are practicing sinners. “Each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away” (James 1:14). A driver sees the speed limit sign; he exceeds the limit; he gets a ticket. He can’t blame Adam for that.
“I did not eat the fruit.” True, but Scripture says that we, individually and as a human race, were all represented by Adam. “In Adam all die” (1 Corinthians 15:22). A diplomat speaking at the United Nations may do or say things that many of his countrymen disapprove of, but he is still the diplomat—he is the officially recognized representative of that country.
The theological principle of a man representing his descendants is called “federal headship.” Adam was the first created human being. He stood at the “head” of the human race. He was placed in the garden to act not only for himself but for all his progeny. Every person ever born was already “in Adam,” represented by him. The concept of federal headship is clearly taught elsewhere in Scripture: “One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him” (Hebrews 7:9-10, ESV). Levi was born several centuries after Abraham lived, yet Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek “through Abraham.” Abraham was the federal head of the Jewish people, and his actions represented the future twelve tribes and the Levitical priesthood.
“I did not eat the fruit.” True, but all sin has consequences beyond the initial wrongdoing. “No man is an island, entire of itself,” John Donne famously wrote. This truth can be applied spiritually. David’s sin with Bathsheba affected David, of course, but it also had a ripple effect that affected Uriah, David’s unborn child, the rest of David’s family, the whole nation, and even Israel’s enemies (2 Samuel 12:9-14). Sin always has undesirable effects on those around us. The ripples of Adam’s momentous sin are still being felt.
“I did not eat the fruit.” True, you were not physically present in the actual Garden of Eden with the juice of forbidden fruit staining the corners of your guilty mouth. But the Bible seems to indicate that, if you had been there instead of Adam, you’d have done the same thing he did. The apple, as they say, doesn’t fall far from the tree.
Whether or not we think it’s “fair” to have Adam’s sin imputed to us doesn’t really matter. God says that we have inherited Adam’s sinful nature, and who are we to argue with God? Besides, we are sinners in our own right. Our own sin probably makes Adam look like a puritan in comparison.
Here’s the good news: God loves sinners. In fact, He has acted to overcome our sin nature by sending Jesus to pay for our sins and offer us His righteousness (1 Peter 2:24). Jesus took the death that was our penalty upon Himself, “so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). Note the words “in him.” We who were once in Adam can now be in Christ by faith. Christ is our new Head, and “in Christ all will be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22).
The Bible says that God created all things—including us—for Himself. He is glorified in His creation. “From him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen” (Romans 11:36).
It may be hard to see how Adam and Eve’s falling into sin could bring glory to God. In fact, some might even wonder why, if God knew ahead of time all the trouble they would cause, He made them in the first place.
God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1–6), and He knows the future (Isaiah 46:10). So He definitely knew that Adam and Eve would sin. But He created them anyway and gave them a free will with which they chose to sin.
We must carefully note that Adam and Eve’s falling into sin does not mean that God is the author of sin or that He tempted them to sin (James 1:13). But the fall does serve the purpose of God’s overall plan for creation and mankind.
If we consider what some theologians call the “meta-narrative” (or overarching storyline) of Scripture, we see that biblical history can be roughly divided into three main sections: 1) paradise (Genesis 1—2); 2) paradise lost (Genesis 3—Revelation 20); and 3) paradise regained (Revelation 21—22). By far the largest part of the narrative is devoted to the transition from paradise lost to paradise regained. At the center of this meta-narrative is the cross, which was planned from the very beginning (Acts 2:23). “The Lamb . . . was slain from the creation of the world” (Revelation 13:8).
Reading Scripture carefully, we are led to the following conclusions:
1. The fall of mankind was foreknown by God.
2. The crucifixion of Christ, the atonement for God’s elect, was foreordained by God.
3. All people will one day glorify God (Psalm 86:9), and God purposes “to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ” (Ephesians 1:10).
God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). The world that best displays the glory of God is the world we have—a world that was allowed to fall, a world that was redeemed, a world that will be restored to its original perfection.
God’s wrath and God’s mercy display the riches of His glory, but we cannot see either without the fall of mankind. We would never know grace if we had never needed grace. Therefore, all of God’s plan—including the fall, election, redemption, and atonement of mankind—serves the purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately displayed in God’s not killing him on the spot. God’s grace was immediately evident in the covering He provided for their shame (Genesis 3:21). God’s patience and forbearance were later on display as mankind fell deeper and deeper into sin. God’s justice and wrath were on display when He sent the flood, and God’s mercy and grace were again demonstrated when He saved Noah and his family. God’s holy wrath and perfect justice will be seen in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all (Revelation 20:7–10).
God’s glory is also revealed in His love (1 John 4:16). Our knowledge of God’s love comes from the Person and saving work of Jesus Christ in this fallen world. “This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him” (1 John 4:9). Had God decided not to create Adam and Eve, based on His knowledge of their fall—or had He made them automatons with no volition—we would never have truly known what love is.
The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in His Son’s words, “Father, forgive them” (Luke 23:34). God’s love and grace are manifest in those whom He has saved (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8–9). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His righteousness results in the eternal punishment of unrepentant sinners (Philippians 2:11). Without the fall of Adam and Eve, we would never know God’s justice, grace, mercy, or love.
Some raise the objection that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination of the fall damages man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin? The best answer to that question can be found in the Westminster Confession of Faith:
“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established” (WFC, III.1)
In other words, God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (by “free” we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside influences). It’s a complex interaction of wills and choices, but the Creator God can handle any amount of complexity.
God foresaw Adam and Eve’s fall. He created them anyway, in His own image, to bring glory to Himself. They were given freedom to make choices. Even though they chose to disobey, their choice became the means by which God’s ultimate will was carried out and by which His full glory will be seen.
Is there anything else I can help you with? [emoji4]
Yes He does have the power to create humans that do not choose to do evil.I did. I doesn't answer my question. Does the god you believe in have the power to create humans that do not choose to do evil?
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