The Problem of Evil

[anunbeliever]

A human father dooms his children to suffering, because all life suffers; is he any less loving because of that?

Indeed he would be. Say i had a genetic disorder which meant a high likelyhood that any children i father would suffer and die early. If i still chose to father those children, i would not be loving.

A universe that does not contradict itself must contain suffering because creatures in a universe must by definition be finite; and finite creatures must face disappointment (which all suffering is in essence) because they each have different and conflicting goals at some point.

Rev 21:4 says "4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[a] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
So no more suffering. No sin or evil. Yet finite humans? The bible itself says such a universe is possible for God.

 

[talquin]

No. What happens is you present a question and you yourself present the answers and say "choose!"

That's not what I'm doing. I'm asking how you reconcile the problem of evil, which I've highlighted clearly in my OP. If there's something about it you don't understand, please ask and I'll explain.

But we say you are leaving out the real option but you insist on it only being your three possible answers and nothing else. You present a question with your mind already made up that the opposing side I wrong and it can be no other way.

No need to make up my mind. It is logically impossible for an all-loving and all-powerful god to exist in the presence of evil.

You have been given the same answer in one sense or another on the free will thread but refuse to acknowledge the answer given, only repeat your question. Same as when I answered in this thread originally. Your behavior goes to show how little you want answers and how much you really just want to point the blame.

I keep asking because I don't get answers. I only ask how you reconcile the problem of evil.

 

[Chany]

I can imagine a world where teleporting unicorns exist; it doesn't then follow that they can.

God can only make a universe that does not contradict itself.

A universe that does not contradict itself must contain suffering because creatures in a universe must by definition be finite; and finite creatures must face disappointment (which all suffering is in essence) because they each have different and conflicting goals at some point.

Actually, that's all I need. Logical impossibility only occurs when the very thing is impossible by definition. It is logically possible for a magical teleporting unicorn to exist in some possible world. Not ours, but some possible world. They can logically exist; there is nothing in the terms above that create contradiction.

What is logically contradictory about a finite world where there is no physical evil and everyone is predetermined to be just, good, and virtuous?

Your definition of suffering has problems. Philosophically, I don't see any actual basis for it. I can see a good portion of suffering caused by disappointment and dissatisfaction; however, this disappointment would not exist in a world without physical evil populated by completely virtuous people. Also, I don't see how all suffering is, in essence, disappointment. The type of pain I feel from a knife is very different than the pain I get from not getting a job. The pain of the knife seems to have a positive element into it; the pain is causing suffering and I want relief. However, my suffering is not caused (at least, entirely) my disappointment from lack of relief. Rather, the presence of pain itself is causing suffering.

Lastly, if all finite beings must suffer necessarily, how is heaven a place without suffering or evil? This place, per your definition, is impossible for finite beings a.k.a. anything but God.

 

[yesyoushould]

Christians often claim that their God can do anything. They also often claim that their God loves everyone. If such a God does exist, it would want to prevent evil

God is goodness. You are free to do as you choose.

 

[Inkfingers]

Actually, that's all I need. Logical impossibility only occurs when the very thing is impossible by definition. It is logically possible for a magical teleporting unicorn to exist in some possible world. Not ours, but some possible world. They can logically exist; there is nothing in the terms above that create contradiction.

You are presuming that such a world is possible; a presumption for which you have no evidence.

What is logically contradictory about a finite world where there is no physical evil and everyone is predetermined to be just, good, and virtuous?

I already explained this to you; finite beings by nature will face disappointment (suffering).

I don't see how all suffering is, in essence, disappointment. The type of pain I feel from a knife is very different than the pain I get from not getting a job. The pain of the knife seems to have a positive element into it; the pain is causing suffering and I want relief. However, my suffering is not caused (at least, entirely) my disappointment from lack of relief. Rather, the presence of pain itself is causing suffering.

The pain is the body's disappointment at being cut. If it were not so, it would simply be sensation and not pain. The fact that it is painful shows that the body is making a judgement.

Lastly, if all finite beings must suffer necessarily, how is heaven a place without suffering or evil?

Good question.

As finite beings by nature will suffer, and heaven has no suffering, it implies that there is only an infinite being there.

How are we there as well?

Well, think about it (but its beyond the purpose of this thread and I will not be taking it further on here ).

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Could you be more specific?

No, I can't. I was responding to your claim that "a universe that does not contradict itself must contain suffering." So you'd need to be more specific yourself.

 

[Inkfingers]

No, I can't. I was responding to your claim that "a universe that does not contradict itself must contain suffering." So you'd need to be more specific yourself.

I already have.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I already have.

If you had, I would never have asked the question. It's not clear to me what's contradictory about a universe in which that does not happen.

 

[Inkfingers]

If you had, I would never have asked the question. It's not clear to me what's contradictory about a universe in which that does not happen.

Then study what I have already said on the matter, rather than asking me to repeat it.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Then study what I have already said on the matter, rather than asking me to repeat it.

I'm not asking you to repeat it, but to explain your reasoning because it's not clear how you reached your conclusion.

 

[Inkfingers]

I'm not asking you to repeat it, but to explain your reasoning because it's not clear how you reached your conclusion.

Which amounts to repeating it, again.

Sorry, no, I've said it enough times. If you don't understand it, its not my job to make you drink water that I've lead you to.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Which amounts to repeating it, again.

Sorry, no, I've said it enough times. If you don't understand it, its not my job to make you drink water that I've lead you to.

That's the problem... you haven't led anyone to "water" because you haven't explained your reasoning as clearly as you think you have. You've simply asserted that God cannot do X because X is contradictory, and when asked to substantiate this claim more fully, you walk away.

 

[quatona]

Which amounts to repeating it, again.

Sorry, no, I've said it enough times.

Could you at least point us to the post where you made the deduction that a universe without suffering is impossible?
Because I can only seem to find ex cathedra claims from you.

If you don't understand it, its not my job to make you drink water that I've lead you to.

Well, it would be nice to understand at least what you think counts for the proof of a logical impossibility.

 

[kristina411]

That's not what I'm doing. I'm asking how you reconcile the problem of evil, which I've highlighted clearly in my OP. If there's something about it you don't understand, please ask and I'll explain.


No need to make up my mind. It is logically impossible for an all-loving and all-powerful god to exist in the presence of evil.


I keep asking because I don't get answers. I only ask how you reconcile the problem of evil.

Every person who answers your question has this same issue. You refuse to aknowledge the answer unless it fits into your ideas. Your ideas are only your ideas so if you can not open your mind to others ideas you will never understand.

You have been answered multiple times and act as if you still haven't received and answer. This thread is your evidence of this.

 

[talquin]

Every person who answers your question has this same issue. You refuse to aknowledge the answer unless it fits into your ideas. Your ideas are only your ideas so if you can not open your mind to others ideas you will never understand.

You have been answered multiple times and act as if you still haven't received and answer. This thread is your evidence of this.

If I really have been answered multiple times, then perhaps you can provide those answers.

If a god exists and evil exists, one of these two must be true:

1) God is incapable of doing anything
2) God doesn't love everyone

Why?
If God loves everyone, then he would want to prevent rapists from raping small children. If God can do anything, then he would be capable of stopping rapists from raping children. But since rapes of innocent children do occur, then it is impossible for an existent God to both love everyone and be able to do anything.

 

[JacksBratt]

If God exists, I would like to see sufficient evidence of his existence. But all available evidence points to the truth being that he doesn't exist.

What, in your opinion, would be "sufficient evidence"?

Upon asking for specifics, Christians usually admit that God is capable of doing things like re-routing a typhoon, stopping a rapist from raping a child, preventing an earthquake from occurring, keeping a murderer from going on a murder spree.

So according to Christians, God is perfectly capable of preventing evil.

Yes, God is perfectly capable of preventing evil. He is. Just wait until the "one who restrains" is removed. You have not seen nothing yet.

Does man cause typhoons, earthquakes, diseases of children, tsunamis, etc.?

Maybe the people pushing the whole climate change would like you to believe that, however, no man doesn't cause these things.

The world was a perfect place until the fall. After that, when sin entered the world, the whole game changed. Whether God or Satan is in control of the natural disasters is not the issue. The fact is that God allows them to happen or they wouldn't happen.

We are coming to the end of an age. Christ said that we would see these natural disasters increase before He returned. You can say they are evil. You can say they are a sign to those who are watching. In the end, they serve a purpose far beyond our control and, in many cases, our understanding.

That has nothing to do with the problem of evil.

That also has nothing to do with the problem of evil.

You are dissecting my post and in segments it won't have the same meaning.

How does free will determine that earthquakes and hurricanes will occur?

It doesn't. Free will caused the fall, causes sin. Sin causes suffering.

That isn't proof of anything. I think you can do better than that.

Your right that its not proof of anything. What are you looking for when you say I can do better?

How do you know what God wants?

His word says it. 1 Peter 5:6 - Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

That sounds like a straw man argument to me. Perhaps you could do a better job of addressing my OP.

Your entitled to your opinion.

 

[kristina411]

As i said... You are presenting a question with your own answers saying one must choose. Same with your ideas of free will.
You ask a question and say choose AB or C and it can only be those options because no one else can have any other possible answer because it is not what you want to hear.
Not my idea of a productive conversation.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

True story. Or: God is a loving father -- to me.

Would you say that "loving" is intersubjective? Or maybe just subjective?

 

[4x4toy]

If I really have been answered multiple times, then perhaps you can provide those answers.

If a god exists and evil exists, one of these two must be true:

1) God is incapable of doing anything
2) God doesn't love everyone

Why?
If God loves everyone, then he would want to prevent rapists from raping small children. If God can do anything, then he would be capable of stopping rapists from raping children. But since rapes of innocent children do occur, then it is impossible for an existent God to both love everyone and be able to do anything.

A good question .. As a former Atheist I thought the same things .. I saw evil , mean things all my life .. As a Christian I see the same things .. Which just proves to me evil exists .. So as a Christian I now know God exists too .. Now I am responsible to pray and seek God for whatever God puts on my plate .. But you and others have responsibility for what you are called to minister too but neglect .. I hate it for you but hey , free will and all , your choice .. Everyone will be held accountable .. You are neglecting what you are called to be responsible for .. God has a work for each individual , your lack of prayer for things you blame God for will be turned back on you at the judgment .. God has put the ball in your court .. Most of the problems I see are caused by people not knowing how to act or knowing what is right .. Jesus shows and tells us how to act so where is the weak link ? If you want to see it why don't you try being it ? Now I have seen the difference prayer makes for those I've been called to intercede for .. I look at life as being Gods way of separating the sheep from the goats and it is plain to see it unfold right in front of our faces .. God has done all He can do and His plan is perfect

 

[Archaeopteryx]

A good question .. As a former Atheist I thought the same things .. I saw evil , mean things all my life .. As a Christian I see the same things .. Which just proves to me evil exists .. So as a Christian I now know God exists too .. Now I am responsible to pray and seek God for whatever God puts on my plate .. But you and others have responsibility for what you are called to minister too but neglect .. I hate it for you but hey , free will and all , your choice .. Everyone will be held accountable .. You are neglecting what you are called to be responsible for .. God has a work for each individual , your lack of prayer for things you blame God for will be turned back on you at the judgment .. God has put the ball in your court .. Most of the problems I see are caused by people not knowing how to act or knowing what is right .. Jesus shows and tells us how to act so where is the weak link ? If you want to see it why don't you try being it ? Now I have seen the difference prayer makes for those I've been called to intercede for .. I look at life as being Gods way of separating the sheep from the goats and it is plain to see it unfold right in front of our faces .. God has done all He can do and His plan is perfect

What's "perfect" about this plan?