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The Problem of Evil

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talquin

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Christians often claim that their God can do anything. They also often claim that their God loves everyone. If such a God does exist, it would want to prevent evil and would also be capable of preventing evil.

We can quibble over what 'evil' actually means, but we all can agree that things like the genocide, the holocaust, mass suffering, rape of children, destructive earthquakes & typhoons and murder do occur. The question is why doesn't an all-powerful and all-loving God stop these things from happening?

If God is all-loving, then he would want to prevent these things.

If God is all-powerful, then he would be capable of preventing these things.

But since these things do occur, it means a god which is all-loving and all-powerful can't exist. It doesn't mean that no god exists, but it does mean we have to rethink our idea of what God is.

A frequent Christian response to this is that God needs to allow these things to accomplish some kind of greater good. However, if he is all-powerful, he can accomplish any greater good without any kinds of the aforementioned items. In other words, if one can bring about goodness without tragedy, it is better than bringing about goodness with tragedy.

There are other Christian responses, which I'll be happy to address.
 

juvenissun

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Christians often claim that their God can do anything. They also often claim that their God loves everyone. If such a God does exist, it would want to prevent evil and would also be capable of preventing evil.

We can quibble over what 'evil' actually means, but we all can agree that things like the genocide, the holocaust, mass suffering, rape of children, destructive earthquakes & typhoons and murder do occur. The question is why doesn't an all-powerful and all-loving God stop these things from happening?

If God is all-loving, then he would want to prevent these things.

If God is all-powerful, then he would be capable of preventing these things.

But since these things do occur, it means a god which is all-loving and all-powerful can't exist. It doesn't mean that no god exists, but it does mean we have to rethink our idea of what God is.

A frequent Christian response to this is that God needs to allow these things to accomplish some kind of greater good. However, if he is all-powerful, he can accomplish any greater good without any kinds of the aforementioned items. In other words, if one can bring about goodness without tragedy, it is better than bringing about goodness with tragedy.

There are other Christian responses, which I'll be happy to address.

God can do everything. But He can not make YOU to believe in Him.
Do you want Him to Make You believe? Or do you want Him to leave you alone?
 
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Inkfingers

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How many times in one month will there be Problem of Evil threads (or one's essentially making the same point)?

Christians often claim that their God can do anything.

It is not that God is able to do just anything; he cannot make a stone so heavy that he can't life it, nor can he make 1+1 equal 2.6

Rather it is that God does everything.

Nothing does happen or can happen that does not originate in and with Hiim. That is how he is All-mighty (ie: "omnipotent").

The world he makes is orderly and everything in it is finite and so limited and so fallible and so flawed/imperfect by definition. The world is also a conflict filled place as all those finite things and creatures have conflciting interests that result in evil for those on the receiving end (to the grass the deer is evil, to the deer the lion is evil).

Criticising God's work against a magic-wand fantasy version of the universe that would never exist is no real criticism at all.
 
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Star Adept

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Preface: All stated below is opinion based on my studies. I may use words that seem factual, but I do not always discriminate that which is fact and that which is opinion. Therefore, take everything below with a grain of salt in terms of "truth" which is what we should do when any man says anything anyways :p


I think an all-loving God is a Christian misunderstanding that allows them to maintain the Word of God as Law to be unbroken. Like if you didn't think speeding tickets were meant for the greater good, you might be more inclined to speed whenever you wanted hoping not to get caught.

I have been doing much deep research into the faith, the original texts, the comparisons to other faiths. I do not see evidence of an all-loving God. Rather, I see a history of the Father of All transitioning to the King of Gods. As a Father, He loves all of His creation. As a King, he must show the power of his kingship to maintain that position. And, in a deeper understanding, I see deities as the first quest for understanding, but I'll mostly just be talking as if that's not the case.

Those who sin have two options, both of which are examples of why we must worship Him as the One True Loving God: Sin, by ignoring His Law, and be shown His unloving Wrath and by extension an example of why we must worship Him (because not doing so is a sin in and of itself). Sin, and repent, and He saves us from the Wrath He has shown us and provides an example of His Love to those who would worship Him as King.

The Wrath had to come first. Otherwise, non-believing good people would do away with bad people anyways, without need of a self-professed righteous King. Humans have a history of getting our courage as a people to overthrow the wrong-doers in our world. In His Law, He attempts to do away with the option of turning to another deity for salvation (or face His Wrath) by asserting His self-professed Kingship. As Father, these other deities are His creation as well, if by a true creation or by extension the creation of sin working against our minds. As King, He professes that those creations are there to server our sight of Him as salvation.

If you've ever seen the movie Major Payne, one of his soldiers is shot and in agony; Major Payne breaks his finger to take his mind off the bullet wound. In this pain of a broken finger, MP shows what an outsider may see as a twisted sense of mercy and salvation from agony. To the shot man, I'm sure he got over the "twisted" part pretty quickly and learned to accept and appreciate MP's righteous action. The difference between Major Payne and God is that God takes credit for both the bullet wound and the broken finger as assertion that had we listened to Him, there would not be strife in the world for the soldier to be shot in the first place. The man had to be shot first before he could be shown salvation and for us, as viewers, to learn to love and appreciate the otherwise twisted character of Major Payne. To a viewer who has been shot, MP as an analogue to God makes a lot of sense and would not question the actions. To a viewer who has not been shot, we raise a lot of questions:
-Why was it written for the script that the soldier get shot in the first place? The writer could have made everyone in the movie live, but we realize that evil and agony exist in the world and that story would not have had as much of an impact on us otherwise. There would also be no need for Major Payne as salvation had their not been a wound to save his soldier from.
-Why did Major Payne break his finger? Could not a field-nurse have administered pain medication and treated the wound? Then we would not have seen the "twisted" Major Payne in a different light, we would instead find salvation in a person whose soul purpose is to remove all pain and agony from all instead of treating our savior as "well he's a little messed up, but he -did- help the soldier out." Thus, we are treated to a story where Major Payne, as an analogue, is our only salvation despite the potential for someone else to do a better job that makes more sense if -allowed- to have our savior be anybody else.

Here are what I think are some major misunderstandings in the Christian view of the bible, especially in reference to an all-loving, all-powerful God. In my studies I find three things: Good and Evil are beyond God's control and are inherent in God himself. God as the Father can be accepted without the bible/quran, but God as the One True God (King) cannot. Which is probably why we're not on the cusp of a religious war with Japan whose population is only 2.3% Christian as opposed to our long history and current religious strife with Islam.


Genesis 1:1-3
In the beginning God created heaven and earth

The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep water. The Spirit of God was hovering over the water.

Then God said, “Let there be light!” So there was light. 4 God saw the light was good. So God separated the light from the darkness
As opposed to what? The darkness that existed on earth at its conception in Gen1:2? Many people misconstrue this to mean that darkness is "evil" as opposed to "not good." Which is like saying that a diet of potatoes is evil as opposed to not good. Rather, it is more like a metaphor for knowledge and consciousness. To stumble around in the dark is pretty crappy as opposed to flicking on the light switch. This extends to God himself. He created the heaven and earth in Gen1:1 but made no reference to its "goodness" because it was made in the dark; He himself was stumbling around at creation as any human creator/inventor would. He also saw the light was good instead of creating light out of goodness. Throwing back to my light-switch analogy, had you ever just lived in darkness and turned on the switch you would probably go "Hey! Great! I'm never going back to the dark again!" And thus, we all have light switches in our houses. Similarly, if viewed as a metaphor for consciousness as the "light" in the darkness of our instinctual animal ancestors, as a species we might have been like "wow! I can tell what I'm doing now, this is great!" and we separated from the "darkness" of animals. (deeper understanding explanation later) Furthermore, this trend of "do this->then see it as good" continues until the end of Genesis 1, where he looks back on His creation and, feeling good about its state, finally takes a break from creation. Much like any human creator would. Imagine an artist who, as he makes his strokes, steps back and declares them good before moving onto the next stroke; only to finally stop painting when he views his work as complete and good.

Personal deeper understanding:
All things that separate and give light are towards earth. In the original text, heaven is viewed more in the sense of the visible area above the clouds i.e. the sky. The sun, moon, and stars were a part of heaven(sky) but were to give light to the earth. Yet, no planets are formed or made mention of, because, to the earliest of enlightened mankind, they were indistinguishable. One of the highly debated verses from Genesis is that of 1:5:

God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Now, I'm big on translation. There is a lot of translation problems that arise in an English view of the bible. However, there's not much to say for this verse as far as translation goes, it's pretty spot on. Light, as named day, and day, as to mean the passing of time from evening to morning is the same word. This is very uncommon in Hebrew, as their words tend to have multiple meanings. One of the reasons this verse is a hot-topic is because there is a day cycle prior to the creation of the sun and the moon as in Gen1:14 (two days after the first day-cycle).

In the view of deities as a quest for understanding, it might be easier to read Genesis as the first realizations, enumerations, labeling, and organizing. All of the consciously intelligent things we first learned to do that made us who we are today.

The important word here is not "day." Rather, "evening," "morning," and "one" are the keys. We now view day as a 24-hour period. But, in this reference, a day was meant to mean the passage from dark to light, with no concept of how long the day was or how it happened. Consider the scientific process. The first utterly obvious thing that is happening is that it gets darker and lighter in cycle ad infinitum. The term "evening" in Hebrew meant "to grow dark." The term "morning" meant (among numerous meanings) "to enlighten." "One" has many many meanings as it is written in Hebrew, among them: first, one, each, a certain, etc. from a root word of (spelled the same, spoken differently) "sharp" or "to go one way or the other" This is where translation problems occur. It could be read "the first day" or "a certain/distinct/sharp/one passage from dark to light." In a context of observational science, it's easy to see how this concept arose before the guiding forces of the Sun and the Moon: We observe dusk and dawn without the Sun in view and often the Moon is not quite so illuminated in those hours but typically always visible. Therefore, the first thought is "well this distinct change happens, but what causes it?" In the context of "one" as a number, we might also see the rise of the first kinds of counting and measurement. Counting and measuring are often one of the first gifts of the gods given to man in many cultures and in theory is probably one of the first marks of our higher intelligence. Certainly we knew how to count before the bible was written, but to explain it in the context that we started to understand counting, organizing, and separating that which is the same versus that which is different, then the gap of "two days" before the Sun and the Moon drive day and night seems more clear.

Remember that the light of day is also called day when unmarked by the actual passing from evening to morning. And light can also be viewed as enlightenment as a meaning for the word that the Hebrews used. The word "the" as often written in Genesis 1:5 "the first day" doesn't exist in the original text; it is rather "day one." Or, "enlightenment one." Similarly throughout the "seven days," the original texts write "day two" or "enlightenment two." Each of the days can be seen as a separate enlightenment of the ancient people, without any reference to how long it took them to realize these things. It is then easier to understand the order of enlightenment.

1: Dusk and dawn happen, somehow.
2: In looking over the ocean, a division is clear between the "flat" part of earth and all that is above (sky/heaven)
3: There is a division between that which we walk on and the waters that we do not. On that which we tread, plants exist, but not in the water. There is division among plants by way of their fruits and seeds being associated by only the same kind of plant. Some are fruits, others are not.
4: Hey you know that dusk/dawn thing? It's brighter when the sun's out, but there's still light when the moon and stars are glowing. (also there's no light in our tents, but I'm not going into that explanation) They must govern how day and night work. We also can't reach them, they must be in the sky/heaven.
5: Birds can travel in the sky and we cannot, they also do not fly in the water. Fish swim in the water and we cannot, they also do not fly. There are many kinds that give offspring only of their kind.
6: There are also animals that are stuck on the ground as we are. (original texts read as: cattle and creeping things that sustain life and perpetuate). Yet, we are unlike any of these in form and intelligence. (By this point) we hunt all things land, sea, and air. We must be special. Yet still, division among our kind is clear (as is not often the case in animals): male and female. For food is given seed-bearing and fruit-bearing plants as well as every living thing. For which, grass and herbs sustain all life as food.

Now, that's a pretty long exposition, and I may have run a little far with it. However, it's important to see it in this perspective when I get back to good/evil. The first book of Genesis is nothing but division. What is the same and what is different. The end of these divisions? It is good to know the difference.[/I]
Ok, this is already pretty long, I'll try to shorten my words here. (Not an easy thing for me lol)

In the view of Genesis 2, we see that it starts off with God resting instead of at the end of Genesis 1. Exposition? Gen 1 are the common truths of life as early man had figured out. In Gen 2, we stopped with the clearly observable divisions. Our enlightenment was at rest. This is the point in the bible that divides(sure is a lot of that) the truth of man and the thought of man. Speaking of divisions, a good one to note is God's name written as Elohim all the way until Genesis 2:3 where he is then written as Yahweh/Jehovah/YHVH. Beyond that, the distinction gets a little hard to make. But it's important to note that in one instance below.

(lol I actually hit the char limit on a post) 1 of 2
 
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Star Adept

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The division between Gen 1 and 2 are actually quite large, mostly in terms of chronology. All the below are presented as Gen 2 / Gen 1.

-Man came first / plants (could be viewed as only cultivated plants) and animals came first
-God made man, then eden, then put man in eden, then kicked out of eden / Man was simply on earth
-Mention of gold and onyx outside of eden was mentioned in scripture (and labelled the gold as "good") but not to Adam himself / (no real division here, other than no mention of any "good" kinds of minerals, and, it's a little strange that it's even there -- look up Ancient Astronaut Theory if you want but I'm certainly not touching up on any of that here)
-Adam was put in eden with the purpose of taking care of eden and commanded to not eat from one particular tree (by elohim-yahweh which is debated but often seen as God-gods or the One among gods)/ Man had no actual purpose and had no restrictions on any tree (God in Gen 1 was always just yahweh or gods, and lacked a proper noun) (also relevant to Ancient Astronaut Theory and the Ancient Babylonian texts that predate any of the bible texts)
-Adam was alone with God. This was, apparently, not good for Adam for some reason (although at this point he had not eaten from the Tree of G/E so Adam wouldn't have recognized the difference -- nor would he have realized why death from ToGE was bad. We can view him as essentially a Clay Golem at this point) Animals were created to be his "helpers" (so, the only "good" thing about companionship is subservience at this point -- Adam had the Tree of Life and needed no animals or other plants to sustain his life)/ Man was already surrounded by animals and they were only ever realized to be food, but nobody was objecting to this being "the right helper" in fact, nothing about Gen 1 was "not right" it was all good. Twice so far we have seen things are "not good" in Gen 2 and needed correcting.
-Woman formed from Adam in his likeness (not dirt again in God's likeness again -- asexual to sexual anyone? (because what function would his testicles have had before Eve?) :p) / Man and Woman were given no distinction of creation from God but were realized to be different from each other all-the-same

Genesis 2:24 has been the hardest verse in my studies.
That is why a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and they will become one flesh.
Who is making this assertion? The proceeding 2:23 is a quote from Adam. Moses, to my knowledge, never wrote in this factual style without making it clear that it was of God's word.

So, we see in Genesis 1 as the first thing to be presented to us in the bible that understanding division is good, per gods/God (as only ever the name Elohim). In Genesis 2, we are presented with division from Genesis 1 both in terms of story, timeline and in the claim of God as the God of gods.
Genesis 3 (We're getting to the good/evil thing, I promise, almost there!)
G3:1
Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed *, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"

Many people will symbolize this as Satan at work. I take issue with many things later in the bible and with this verse in and of itself. It very clearly defines the serpent as the "craftiest" of creatures that the God of gods had made. You'll remember G1 stating that Yahweh saw that even the creatures that crawled on the ground He made were good. The Hebrew word used that is translated into crafty can also mean prudent, which is to say "acting with or showing care and thought for the future." The same word is an antonym of itself. Insight is very necessary to read into this line with the following parts of G3.

G3:3-7
but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked

There are no other meanings behind the Hebrew word for "die" here. It is death. Most of the commentaries I see on this symbolize it as the death of their soul or innocence. The scholars (from the sources I use in my study) would have thrown that definition in there if there were any indication that it could mean anything else than die (sometimes the meanings to words are very elusive because of conjecture. This is not one of them).

G3:5,6
Their eyes would be more open and like God. Sheltered and purposely suppressed has He made Adam and Eve in eden. Why was it easy to convince Eve (and then Adam) to partake in the fruit? Because they had no concept of good and evil. Again, clay golems. God said all fruit in the garden was good. He did not say the fruit of the ToGE was bad (just that they would die, which is not something they would consider bad at this point anyways), he simply commanded them not to eat it. What use is a command if you have no morale compass regarding the one giving the commands? What sense does it make to listen to them? Yet, He did say all the fruit was good. In not having a concept of anything evil, you would presume that if God said something is good, it must be good. Analogize this to any human marketing scam.

G3:7
Then the eyes of both of them were open. The serpent had not lied. Scripture proves that they were created blind (or innocent, but, never to learn if God of gods had His way). The root of the word "naked" is the same word used for "crafty" or "prudent."
I tend to use prudent. Reference Prov 19:25:

Smite a scoffer and the naive may become prudent,
reprove one who has understanding and he will gain knowledge.

Punish a hard-headed scoffer who is beyond words and those who are naive, perhaps by the scoffer's example, may be enlightened. To a scoffer who is naive but open-minded, instead use your words and they may be enlightened.

At this point in Proverbs, it's pretty safe to say God is scoffing other religions. Punish Him (by the serpent ruining his control), and the naive (by proxy) may become astute/show judgement/wise. At this point in Genesis, the only naive people (by default lol) in the entire world are Adam and Eve.
So, God walks through eden, Adam and Eve hide in fear of their creator and master.

He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself."

Remember, naked could mean nude (although they covered themselves), or it could mean prudent, as in to be aware of the good AND evil nature of God.

God punishes the serpent. Physically and by the enmity of all generations of snakes and mankind. This seems to be an odd punishment were the serpent to be the work of Satan. Were it Satan himself, the physical deformity and enmity would mean nothing as he can choose his form and can be as deceptive as he wants. Were the serpent to be inherently evil, mankind now prudent would recognize this in the serpent without God's curse.

God punishes Eve and all females with excessive pain in childbirth (which she never got to experience before the punishment). And she will crave only man who will hold dominion over her and by extension all women.

God punishes Adam and all men with hard labor and death.

Many people will cite these as sins, as if they were not punishments placed on mankind by God. Yet, God showed zero mercy here. If all-powerful, he would have just taken away the gift of knowledge of good and evil. If all-loving he would not have given agony and pain to us. He retaliated against something that was essentially His own fault. He stuck Adam and Eve in eden alongside the ToGE, He created the serpent, He gave them no knowledge of why they should have followed his commands. He is aware of good and evil, but had no power to stop it from reaching the hands of His, then, perfect creations.

Btw, I'm pretty sure most men take pride in a good day's hard work and women have long since been under our thumb (but not quite in all cultures, keep fighting ladies!) so these punishments were not godly in any sort. In fact, no children had Eve conceived yet -- therefore we don't even know if God had done anything to her in that sense. Similarly, if all the food in eden was provided for Adam, how would he have known how hard working for his food was -- therefore we don't know if God had done anything other than take away the ease of eden. Like a rich dad who takes away his financial ties from a misbehaving son, the world is hard regardless, He just removes his support in frustration and punishment.

Furthermore, Adam names his wife only here. He names her Eve. He explains that it is because she became the mother of all the living. However, the name Eve is a pronoun from the root word meaning "to show" "declare" "make known" or lesser "to breath". Not only does Eve "breathe" the life into all mankind as God did to Adam, but she "showed" and "made known" the truth of the world to him. This was a name of appreciation for opening his eyes.

At least God gave them clothes on the way out?

Finally, Genesis 3:22

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”

The God of gods spoke to the entities (gods/angels) in heaven. He chastised mankind for the insight they had gained. He warns them that they may then want everlasting life as the gods did. Instead of commanding mankind, he disallowed passage into eden.

The God of gods never wanted us to be prudent or everlasting. He wanted dumb clay golems to toil and service his garden. Landscapers of the gods now aware of our servitude, we are of no use to the God of gods. It was not the fruit of the ToGE or the serpent that killed us, it was the God of gods.

The God of gods (I call him King of gods; in my studies it makes a little more sense) in Genesis 2 and 3 is a merciless god.

Shift to Genesis 4 (I'll save you from a writeup of this one) and it's back to Yahweh, (back to simply a Pronoun for God instead of King of gods). When Cain kills his brother, God punishes him, but in mercy declares that nobody else gets to punish Cain for his actions, as is a right reserved for God. Another division. Another important division.

We must recognize God as our Creator/Father and not our King. We do not serve Him any more than we would serve our fathers -- we only exist to make them proud and grow strong together as children and a family.

Woo. Ok, done typing....for now :p
 
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talquin

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God can do everything. But He can not make YOU to believe in Him.
Do you want Him to Make You believe? Or do you want Him to leave you alone?
If God is real, then I'd like to witness his existence. However, I have yet to witness anything which would lead me to believe that a god exists.

If God can do anything, then he can do precisely what it would take to get me to believe he exists. And if he knows everything, then he would know precisely what it would take to get me to believe he exists. But since we don't see any of that being done, then if he exists, he definitely is an indifferent god.
 
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talquin

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How many times in one month will there be Problem of Evil threads (or one's essentially making the same point)?



It is not that God is able to do just anything; he cannot make a stone so heavy that he can't life it, nor can he make 1+1 equal 2.6
Is God capable of stopping a rapist from raping a child? Is God capable of diverting a potentially destructive typhoon so that it harmlessly dissipates over the ocean?

Rather it is that God does everything.

I just ate a cracker. If God does everything, then he was the one who ate that cracker. I guess that makes me God.

Nothing does happen or can happen that does not originate in and with Hiim. That is how he is All-mighty (ie: "omnipotent").
Let's say Fred comes up with the thought of raping a child. Did that thought originate with God?

The world he makes is orderly and everything in it is finite and so limited and so fallible and so flawed/imperfect by definition. The world is also a conflict filled place as all those finite things and creatures have conflciting interests that result in evil for those on the receiving end (to the grass the deer is evil, to the deer the lion is evil).

Criticising God's work against a magic-wand fantasy version of the universe that would never exist is no real criticism at all.
This isn't any kind of criticism. Why are you suggesting it is? Are you taking it as such?
 
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Inkfingers

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Is God capable of stopping a rapist from raping a child? Is God capable of diverting a potentially destructive typhoon so that it harmlessly dissipates over the ocean?

God creates human nature and predetermines everything that will happen.

Everything.

That's what it means to be all-mighty and sovereign over all that occurs.

Why does he end up with a universe that has evil in it? As I already said:

"The world he makes is orderly and everything in it is finite and so limited and so fallible and so flawed/imperfect by definition. The world is also a conflict filled place as all those finite things and creatures have conflciting interests that result in evil for those on the receiving end (to the grass the deer is evil, to the deer the lion is evil)."
 
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Star Adept

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If God is real, then I'd like to witness his existence. However, I have yet to witness anything which would lead me to believe that a god exists.

A lot of people personify God like "he's" "up there" "doing stuff." Have you ever considered God as a term instead of a name?

I always enjoy getting the response to two similar lines of questions:

How do you choose to love another person? Not your family, and not "how does the chemical signals of "love" affect you?" How do you personally choose when happiness for one person differs from another and you decide to call one of those feelings love? Figure that out and prove to somebody else that your love exists. How would you do that?

Everyone is clearly aware of when we do something selflessly, it's typically markedly different than when we think about who the actions will affect and how it will come back to us in the end. Think about all the times (hopefully there's a number of them lol) where you did something that had zero benefit to yourself. How did you feel? What would you call the sensation of that feeling?
 
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quatona

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A lot of people personify God like "he's" "up there" "doing stuff." Have you ever considered God as a term instead of a name?
Since I have no god concept of my own and "God" isn´t a copyrighted term, I have to work with the god concepts as they are presented.

I always enjoy getting the response to two similar lines of questions:

How do you choose to love another person? Not your family, and not "how does the chemical signals of "love" affect you?" How do you personally choose when happiness for one person differs from another and you decide to call one of those feelings love? Figure that out and prove to somebody else that your love exists. How would you do that?
If god were presented as a term for a personal feeling of believers I think we wouldn´t see all these discussions concerning evidence/proof.

Most believers, however, would take it for an insult if we considered and called god a personal feeling of theirs .At best they tell us that they "have a relationship with God", not that "God is a relationship or a feeling".

Everyone is clearly aware of when we do something selflessly, it's typically markedly different than when we think about who the actions will affect and how it will come back to us in the end. Think about all the times (hopefully there's a number of them lol) where you did something that had zero benefit to yourself.
I don´t think that´s possible (depending, of course, on what you count as benefit). Which, of course, doesn´t mean that I am calculating the benefit-cost ratio of my every move.
How did you feel? What would you call the sensation of that feeling?
Don´t know. "Pride"? :p
In any case, I suspect that the sensation of that feeling is somewhat beneficial. Which would throw your construct of "selflessness vs. selfishness" out of the window.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Not so long ago, I was optimistic that Christians could plausibly address the problem of evil with at least some small measure of success. However, recent conversations have forced me to reconsider this view. As a result, my confidence in their ability to square this circle without making significant theological compromises has been lessened.
 
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juvenissun

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If God is real, then I'd like to witness his existence. However, I have yet to witness anything which would lead me to believe that a god exists.

If God can do anything, then he can do precisely what it would take to get me to believe he exists. And if he knows everything, then he would know precisely what it would take to get me to believe he exists. But since we don't see any of that being done, then if he exists, he definitely is an indifferent god.

God does not do that for a very critical purpose. It also proves that you are a free man.

And you failed to see the relationship between my reply and your OP. I did not shifting the goalpost.

Every man is a free man. So evil exits.
 
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juvenissun

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Not so long ago, I was optimistic that Christians could plausibly address the problem of evil with at least some small measure of success. However, recent conversations have forced me to reconsider this view. As a result, my confidence in their ability to square this circle without making significant theological compromises has been lessened.

There are people who are knowing less through time. You might be just one of them.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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This is the way I see it:

If life has moral worth, then people would consider stuff like murder or self annihlation wrong. We do so, and quite possibly thats because life has moral worth. So Im not "affirming the consequent" (which is a fallacy). Not a fallacy, more like a reasonable abduction. i.e. inference to best explanation.

If God was going to just annihilate creation, many poeople would not rejoice.

So, if life and creation are of moral worth (enough for us to desire its continuation), then whats the issue with the creation in the first place?

Ok, it may not be perfect (ie its not "God") but it is still worthwhile.
 
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juvenissun

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This is the way I see it:

If life has moral worth, then people would consider stuff like murder or self annihlation wrong. We do so, and quite possibly thats because life has moral worth. So Im not "affirming the consequent" (which is a fallacy). Not a fallacy, more like a reasonable abduction. i.e. inference to best explanation.

If God was going to just annihilate creation, many poeople would not rejoice.

So, if life and creation are of moral worth (enough for us to desire its continuation), then whats the issue with the creation in the first place?

Ok, it may not be perfect (ie its not "God") but it is still worthwhile.

The issue is how to deal with the problem of evil. It is our problem, not God's (the Creator's) problem.
 
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talquin

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A lot of people personify God like "he's" "up there" "doing stuff." Have you ever considered God as a term instead of a name?
If you posit a god which is a term, then in the case of that god, I would consider it to be a term. But in the case of a god which is posited to love everyone and be able to do anything, I know only two things about the nature of that god. And those two things together are incompatible in a world in which there is evil.

I always enjoy getting the response to two similar lines of questions:

How do you choose to love another person? Not your family, and not "how does the chemical signals of "love" affect you?" How do you personally choose when happiness for one person differs from another and you decide to call one of those feelings love? Figure that out and prove to somebody else that your love exists. How would you do that?
Good question. If you knew a small child in your town was about to get brutally raped and you had the power to do something about it without any repercussions, how much would you have to love that child to want to do something about it?

Everyone is clearly aware of when we do something selflessly, it's typically markedly different than when we think about who the actions will affect and how it will come back to us in the end. Think about all the times (hopefully there's a number of them lol) where you did something that had zero benefit to yourself. How did you feel? What would you call the sensation of that feeling?
Every action you consciously make has some benefit to yourself. If you donate 100% of your free time or 50% of your disposable income to a particular charity, you are doing it out of selfishness. You either wish to derive pleasure which is greater than the expense or you wish to avoid pain (or something else detrimental) which is greater than what you have to give up. For more on this, there's a great article at Psychology Today. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201308/analysis-altruism
 
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talquin

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If God is real, then I'd like to witness his existence. However, I have yet to witness anything which would lead me to believe that a god exists.

If God can do anything, then he can do precisely what it would take to get me to believe he exists. And if he knows everything, then he would know precisely what it would take to get me to believe he exists. But since we don't see any of that being done, then if he exists, he definitely is an indifferent god.
God does not do that for a very critical purpose. It also proves that you are a free man.
It doesn't prove I'm a free man. It only proves if an all-knowing and all-powerful god does exist, it doesn't want me to believe it exists.

And you failed to see the relationship between my reply and your OP. I did not shifting the goalpost.
Please elaborate. What is the relationship?

Every man is a free man. So evil exits.
Really. So all the inmates on death row are actually free men?

Yes, evil - as I outlined it in my OP - does exist.
 
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talquin

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The issue is how to deal with the problem of evil. It is our problem, not God's (the Creator's) problem.
If God exists, it is a problem for him. What would his take be on countless people not believing he exists because his nature is such that he possesses conflicting attributes? Not to mention that these conflicting attributes make it very easy to prove he doesn't exist?
 
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