The Problem of Evil

[RPicking]

I can only speak for myself, but that's not true. Lets look at the ongoing problem of priests and pastors raping children:

If I walked into a room and saw a pastor raping a child, I would stop it. That is the moral thing to do.

If God sees a pastor raping a child, he says to the rapist "don't forget to ask, and I'll forgive you later", walks out of the room, closes the door, and lets the rapist finish unimpeded. That is not the moral thing to do. How can you see it as anything but God condoning evil?

That priest/pastor whoever is doing the raping is going to pay for his crime if he doesn't ask for forgiveness. That is true. If that person is raping a child they probably aren't going to feel guilty for doing it right away.

And yes this is pure evil and we should step in for that child and protect them. Maybe God would provide an answer and this person may be interrupted or someone may find out or come forward and may get the pastor in trouble, etc...

I don't believe that God just stands back and watches. I believe He has a purpose for what He does. We may not be strong enough in our faith to understand the reasons behind why God does the things that He does, but we have to accept as believers. We may not honestly agree with His choices of action but we still have to believe He has a purpose in what He's doing.

Now take the child that was raped. If this pastor comes to this child later in life does that child forgive him? I guess it depends on who is reading this and what they believe or don't believe (I guess). But the Bible calls us to forgive JUST AS GOD FORGIVES.

Because of Sin - there is evil and because there is evil - there is a GOD that gives us the way out. If you choose to ignore that way out - that is your choice.

I think this thread would die if people would ALL understand that Sin brings the Evil, and we can't have a world without evil because SIN is here and it separates us from God's will - God's perfect design for a world that He created. It rains on the just and the unjust and bad things happen to the just and the unjust.

It seems quite simple to me and I don't consider myself a super intelligent.

Cheers.

 

[Ken-1122]

Which is utterly irrelevant to the philsophical issue called The Problem of Evil.

Really? The idea that evil should be prevented has nothing to do with the problem of evil?

Exactly. You misunderstood the whole issue.

Hence your posts are irrelevant and not worth responding to further until you change that situation.

Oh so that's the game you want to play? When your argument has been shut down, you pretend I've misunderstood you and I am no longer worth your response time. I've seen this tactic before; everybody has. If your opinion had merit, you would explain why you think I misunderstood you, or offer a rebuttal.

When I am proven wrong, I admit to my mistake and adjust my opinion's accordingly. What do YOU do? (I think its obvious)

Ken

 

[BL2KTN]

We are all born with a SIN nature - Yes, but I also believe that God views children as exempt from the penalty of sin because they don't know what sin is and don't know how to ask for forgiveness and to see themselves as sinners. I think and believe there is an age of accountability when it comes to those are born - plus what about those that are mentally challenged - I also believe God sees them differently because they may also not e able to see themselves as a sinful person because they don't have the mental ability to understand sin and wrong doing - I think that GOD is more fit to weigh out those kinds of things, BUT when you reach that age where you know the difference between right and wrong and what the sin nature is - yes then you are under the sin nature's penalty - that's my personal opinion and belief.

And I don't give a rat's expletive what your personal opinion is about your version of God... because you don't have any evidence whatsoever to base it on. It matters as much to me as if you said, "I believe God is pink and made of Jello." They're both just as ridiculous because they both have just as much evidence.

I don't honestly know what you're saying about taking off a weekend

They say Jesus was a sacrifice for sins through his death. Since when did death last less than a weekend? And what kind of sacrifice is losing less than three days???

but YES I believe that god KNEW what was going to happen before He created Adam and Eve, because I also believe that HE KNEW he was going to have to send Jesus Christ to the world to show himself as the Answer for mankind.

Every bit of evidence we have shows that Adam and Eve are fictional characters. So that probably puts a damper on your beliefs.

God created everything and that means that everything belongs to God. I do believe in Hell and I believe there are more scriptures confirming Hell than there are showing the evidence of Heaven. And NO I do not believe it's going to be a billion years - I believe it's going to be forever because that is what the BIBLE says and if God breathed the Bible then that settles it for me. Why would it matter if Hell is forever or something that ends in one split moment - the point is - is that Hell was created by God for the Devil and his followers. I don't believe that God wants to send anyone to Hell and it's mans choice to believe the lies that the devil is spewing these days.

I see, so your god made a place of eternal torment that the Nazis couldn't have imagined, decides he's going to send this one guy there after he tricks all of humanity into accepting death based on an illogical, magic story (magic fruit, talking snake, etc), but then he's also accidentally going to allow people to go there too because they were tricked by the talking snake guy.

Do you or do you not believe that every fifteen year old Muslim girl who dies is sent to be set on fire for more than a trillion years with all the agony that entails? And if so, your belief is monstrous and your god is a tyrannical beast not worthy of respect even if it did exist (and it doesn't).

So what if God created the serpent - lucifer is the one that entered the serpent to deceive Eve. He also created the tree that was used to make the cross that Jesus died on - so what. What's your point?

Your god supposedly made everything and that means the devil to trick the people to send them to the hell that no good thing would ever imagine to create.

Are you sure you're an educator? Use common sense. What part of you is actually saying that would set a building on fire with your children in it.

Exactly. Congratulations, you're smarter than Yahweh.

That is not in anyway the context I was stating. The 'Sin Nature' - the very nature that Jesus had to die for - the very thing that the Bible says we inherit when we're born - that is what causes us to be sinful - We are not sinners because we sin - we sin because we're sinners.

According to your beliefs, Jesus didn't die. He held his breath for two days and a few hours.

If you light a match and burn down a building with your children in it, I call that being psychotic and yes you would be labeled a killer and probably be locked up for a long time - and yes sin makes us do stupid and thoughtless things. I'm not going to argue my point with people that just like to be on these boards to argue or to be a devils advocate because they get off to making people struggle to believe what they believe.

If me burning my children who disobey me is psychotic, what exempts your god and his hell?

 

[ThinkForYourself]

That priest/pastor whoever is doing the raping is going to pay for his crime if he doesn't ask for forgiveness. That is true. If that person is raping a child they probably aren't going to feel guilty for doing it right away.

I think we can both agree that God is absolutely not just.

Unless you think the punishment for any crime, no matter how heinous, is saying "Oops! My bad. Sorry!"

And yes this is pure evil and we should step in for that child and protect them. Maybe God would provide an answer and this person may be interrupted or someone may find out or come forward and may get the pastor in trouble, etc...

Yet God chose not to interrupt in most cases, perhaps virtually all cases. That is God condoning evil.

And if I saw your son or daughter about to be raped, and then left without doing anything, would you be satisfied if I reported it later and to the pastor in trouble? Wouldn't you want me to prevent your son or daughter from getting raped if I could?

I don't believe that God just stands back and watches.

According to all Christian theology I've read, God is omnipresent, therefore he stands back and watches.

I believe He has a purpose for what He does. We may not be strong enough in our faith to understand the reasons behind why God does the things that He does, but we have to accept as believers. We may not honestly agree with His choices of action but we still have to believe He has a purpose in what He's doing.

So, the best plan God could come up with requires thousands of children to be raped by pastors and priests? God's best plan requires millions of children to die of starvation every year?

What is this, "Boo Yeah!!! Torture is Awesome!!!!" millenium?

Now take the child that was raped. If this pastor comes to this child later in life does that child forgive him? I guess it depends on who is reading this and what they believe or don't believe (I guess). But the Bible calls us to forgive JUST AS GOD FORGIVES.

So, if I rape your mother and daughter, kill your son, beat you so bad you are a quadriplegic, all I have to do is say "Sorry, my bad", you will be OK with it, and no hard feelings?

Excuse me if I don't believe this.

 

[RPicking]

So, if I rape your mother and daughter, kill your son, beat you so bad you are a quadriplegic, all I have to do is say "Sorry, my bad", you will be OK with it, and no hard feelings?

No because you don't mean it. You're doing out of just being sarcastic and saying to make your point which you're not by the way. All I can say it's your choice.

I can't say anymore about what you're saying because you want an answer that isn't there IF your heart isn't able to get over your own ignorance. This is where my frustration lies in these type of discussions because you're not willing to believe that there is this slim chance that maybe...just maybe one day you'll die and you'll be standing before God wishing maybe that you gave it a chance.

My final comment to you is that it's your choice on what to believe. If you choose to reject it completely then why are you here? Why? It's like a waste of your time.

 

[RPicking]

They say Jesus was a sacrifice for sins through his death. Since when did death last less than a weekend? And what kind of sacrifice is losing less than three days???

Umm because He's God. Hmm, let me think if I have to say more. Umm. No I don't.

Every bit of evidence we have shows that Adam and Eve are fictional characters. So that probably puts a damper on your beliefs.

No because I know you're wrong. Oops. Did I offend you? If you're believer (I'm talking about Christians now) and you believe the word of God to be truth. That's called faith. Not a humanistic type to belief system. You can't have every answer laid out in front of you and still call it faith. The reason you believe the garbage you believe is because it's not faith. You're hanging on to man's wisdom and not God's wisdom.

I see, so your god made a place of eternal torment that the Nazis couldn't have imagined, decides he's going to send this one guy there after he tricks all of humanity into accepting death based on an illogical, magic story (magic fruit, talking snake, etc), but then he's also accidentally going to allow people to go there too because they were tricked by the talking snake guy.

Waste of time...Next.

Do you or do you not believe that every fifteen year old Muslim girl who dies is sent to be set on fire for more than a trillion years with all the agony that entails? And if so, your belief is monstrous and your god is a tyrannical beast not worthy of respect even if it did exist (and it doesn't).

According to the Bible - everyone is given a chance to believe in Christ and His sacrifice for mankind - if they choose to ignore that message then YES - they will be separated from God forever. Yes, God is not Santa Claus - he's not in the business of giving you everything that you want.

That's why the church is commissioned to go out and share the Gospel. That's why missionaries go out and share the Gospel. God is not a monster of God or whatever dumb word you used. He sent Jesus who didn't deserve to die for sin to die on the cross. I would say that God is a loving God that is sparing you from HELL if though you deserve it (that's what Mercy is - not getting something that I do deserve)

Your god supposedly made everything and that means the devil to trick the people to send them to the hell that no good thing would ever imagine to create.

Actually the devil was an angel by the name of Lucifer who wanted to be higher than God and when he did that he was cast out of Heaven and those that followed Lucifer.

According to your beliefs, Jesus didn't die. He held his breath for two days and a few hours.

Okay whatever you say. Stay in your bubble.

If me burning my children who disobey me is psychotic, what exempts your god and his hell?

Um, because YOU the father burning your children are not giving them a choice to either be burned or to get out of the building. You're not offering the salvation that God the FATHER offered.

 

[BL2KTN]

Umm because He's God. Hmm, let me think if I have to say more. Umm. No I don't.

How did you decide this illogical story is God?

No because I know you're wrong. Oops. Did I offend you? If you're believer (I'm talking about Christians now) and you believe the word of God to be truth. That's called faith. Not a humanistic type to belief system. You can't have every answer laid out in front of you and still call it faith. The reason you believe the garbage you believe is because it's not faith. You're hanging on to man's wisdom and not God's wisdom.

Faith is what you use when you have no good reason to believe. It's the ultimate white flag. If there was evidence, you'd cite it. So thank you for saying "faith" because it really means "I have nothing."

Waste of time...Next.

Yes, explaining how the most basic points of Christianity aren't illogical (be saved or go to hell) is a waste of time. I agree.

According to the Bible - everyone is given a chance to believe in Christ and His sacrifice for mankind - if they choose to ignore that message then YES - they will be separated from God forever. Yes, God is not Santa Claus - he's not in the business of giving you everything that you want.

The bible is wrong. We know about isolated tribes that never hear any message about Jesus. The Japanese didn't hear for centuries upon centuries. The bible didn't know the Japanese existed though, so it's understandable.

That's why the church is commissioned to go out and share the Gospel. That's why missionaries go out and share the Gospel. God is not a monster of God or whatever dumb word you used. He sent Jesus who didn't deserve to die for sin to die on the cross. I would say that God is a loving God that is sparing you from HELL if though you deserve it (that's what Mercy is - not getting something that I do deserve)

So I deserve hell? I deserve to be set on fire and be burned in torture for more than a trillion years? What horrible thing did I do to deserve infinite punishment?

Actually the devil was an angel by the name of Lucifer who wanted to be higher than God and when he did that he was cast out of Heaven and those that followed Lucifer.

Are you claiming that your god didn't know that when he supposedly made him?

Okay whatever you say. Stay in your bubble.

Sucks when that's all you've got, doesn't it? Jesus held his breath for two days and change. And you can't challenge it because you know it's true (according to the stories).

Um, because YOU the father burning your children are not giving them a choice to either be burned or to get out of the building. You're not offering the salvation that God the FATHER offered.

I see. So if I yell in there, "I'm setting the house on fire, get out while you can!" then I'm totally exempted from any wrongdoing when I set houses on fire with children in them. That's Yahweh-logic right there, boys and girls =D

 

[ThinkForYourself]

So, if I rape your mother and daughter, kill your son, beat you so bad you are a quadriplegic, all I have to do is say "Sorry, my bad", you will be OK with it, and no hard feelings?

No because you don't mean it.

What do you mean "you don't mean it."? I would feel awful if I did that, and be 100% sincere in my apology.

Why do Christian's apologies to God count, but mine don't? How do you know who is more sincere?

You're doing out of just being sarcastic and saying to make your point which you're not by the way. All I can say it's your choice.

No I'm not. As I said, I would feel terrible if I did all that.

I can't say anymore about what you're saying because you want an answer that isn't there IF your heart isn't able to get over your own ignorance. This is where my frustration lies in these type of discussions because you're not willing to believe that there is this slim chance that maybe...just maybe one day you'll die and you'll be standing before God wishing maybe that you gave it a chance.

My final comment to you is that it's your choice on what to believe. If you choose to reject it completely then why are you here? Why? It's like a waste of your time.

No, you are having trouble because you can see that you are better than your God, and so am I, but at the same time you believe your God is essentially perfect. You are suffering from what is known as Cognitive Dissonance.

 

[Davian]

 

[ThinkForYourself]

....
If me burning my children who disobey me is psychotic, what exempts your god and his hell?

Um, because YOU the father burning your children are not giving them a choice to either be burned or to get out of the building. You're not offering the salvation that God the FATHER offered.

So, I come up to your wife, point a gun at her head, and say "Give me some money or I will kill you."

Your wife doesn't give me money because she doesn't have any, so I kill her. (Just like I can't choose to believe in God....belief is not a choice)

You would then blame your wife for her death, and hold me blameless? Excuse me, but once again I don't believe you.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

They say Jesus was a sacrifice for sins through his death. Since when did death last less than a weekend? And what kind of sacrifice is losing less than three days???

Umm because He's God. Hmm, let me think if I have to say more. Umm. No I don't.

In other words, you agree that God/Jesus didn't really make much of a sacrifice at all.

 

[Ken-1122]

opps!

 

[Ken-1122]

So, if I rape your mother and daughter, kill your son, beat you so bad you are a quadriplegic, all I have to do is say "Sorry, my bad", you will be OK with it, and no hard feelings?.

No because you don't mean it. You're doing out of just being sarcastic and saying to make your point which you're not by the way. All I can say it's your choice.

How is that different than a Christian sinning against God, then asking God to forgive him; knowing all the while he is asking for forgiveness, that he will continue to sin again, and again; until the day he dies?

Ken

 

[RPicking]

In other words, you agree that God/Jesus didn't really make much of a sacrifice at all.

Yeah that's exactly what I said. That's what you read? Okay then. I'm done with you...

Cheers!

 

[RPicking]

How is that different than a Christian sinning against God, then asking God to forgive him; knowing all the while he is asking for forgiveness, that he will continue to sin again, and again; until the day he dies?

When a person or unbeliever becomes a Christian or a believer - God makes them a new creation. They have the indwelling Holy Spirit to help them along the way. Does becoming a Christian make them perfect? No. I don't know exactly where in the Bible you find that, but...

When we become a Christian - a believer in what Jesus has done the cross to save us from OUR sins, then we don't have a desire to sin - to throw our children into a burning building like some of the other "people" on here have been trying use in their explanation. It's quite different when God created HELL for the devil. Any human that decides to step over the cross and ignore every proof that is out there - that's their choice.

No more excuses. You're simply choosing to ignore the truth that stands in front of you with arms open wide.

To be honest - God doesn't SEND people to hell - A person's ignorance and rejection of Jesus is what sends people to hell.

I'm glad that I believe what I believe instead of being stuck in a repetitious argument that goes nowhere - Oh wait - here I am!

 

[BL2KTN]

It's quite different when God created HELL for the devil. Any human that decides to step over the cross and ignore every proof that is out there - that's their choice.

You have proof of this??? Well by all means, let's hear it lest we ignore it any more.

 

[Ken-1122]

How is that different than a Christian sinning against God, then asking God to forgive him; knowing all the while he is asking for forgiveness, that he will continue to sin again, and again; until the day he dies?

When we become a Christian - a believer in what Jesus has done the cross to save us from OUR sins, then we don't have a desire to sin

If Christians no longer have a desire to sin, why are they constantly sinning?

Ken

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I can only speak for myself, but that's not true. Lets look at the ongoing problem of priests and pastors raping children:

If I walked into a room and saw a pastor raping a child, I would stop it. That is the moral thing to do.

If God sees a pastor raping a child, he says to the rapist "don't forget to ask, and I'll forgive you later", walks out of the room, closes the door, and lets the rapist finish unimpeded. That is not the moral thing to do. How can you see it as anything but God condoning evil?

That priest/pastor whoever is doing the raping is going to pay for his crime if he doesn't ask for forgiveness. That is true. If that person is raping a child they probably aren't going to feel guilty for doing it right away.

And yes this is pure evil and we should step in for that child and protect them. Maybe God would provide an answer and this person may be interrupted or someone may find out or come forward and may get the pastor in trouble, etc...

I don't believe that God just stands back and watches. I believe He has a purpose for what He does. We may not be strong enough in our faith to understand the reasons behind why God does the things that He does, but we have to accept as believers. We may not honestly agree with His choices of action but we still have to believe He has a purpose in what He's doing.

This strikes me as the worst excuse of all. If your neighbour deliberately refrained from saving your child from wandering onto oncoming traffic, you would hold him accountable for his moral failing. You wouldn't say, "He must have had a purpose for not intervening." To say that is to make excuses for him.

Now take the child that was raped. If this pastor comes to this child later in life does that child forgive him? I guess it depends on who is reading this and what they believe or don't believe (I guess). But the Bible calls us to forgive JUST AS GOD FORGIVES.

Because of Sin - there is evil and because there is evil - there is a GOD that gives us the way out. If you choose to ignore that way out - that is your choice.

I think this thread would die if people would ALL understand that Sin brings the Evil, and we can't have a world without evil because SIN is here and it separates us from God's will - God's perfect design for a world that He created. It rains on the just and the unjust and bad things happen to the just and the unjust.

It seems quite simple to me and I don't consider myself a super intelligent.

Cheers.

How is it a "perfect design" if that design includes sin and therefore evil?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No because I know you're wrong. Oops. Did I offend you? If you're believer (I'm talking about Christians now) and you believe the word of God to be truth. That's called faith. Not a humanistic type to belief system. You can't have every answer laid out in front of you and still call it faith. The reason you believe the garbage you believe is because it's not faith. You're hanging on to man's wisdom and not God's wisdom.

"God's wisdom" always seems to come from men, specifically men who claim to have divine wisdom.

According to the Bible - everyone is given a chance to believe in Christ and His sacrifice for mankind - if they choose to ignore that message then YES - they will be separated from God forever. Yes, God is not Santa Claus - he's not in the business of giving you everything that you want.

Everyone is given this opportunity equally? Even those who have never encountered Christianity in their lives?

That's why the church is commissioned to go out and share the Gospel. That's why missionaries go out and share the Gospel. God is not a monster of God or whatever dumb word you used. He sent Jesus who didn't deserve to die for sin to die on the cross. I would say that God is a loving God that is sparing you from HELL if though you deserve it (that's what Mercy is - not getting something that I do deserve)

You think people deserve eternal torture for not being sycophants? You think that's "loving"?

 

[bhsmte]

How is that different than a Christian sinning against God, then asking God to forgive him; knowing all the while he is asking for forgiveness, that he will continue to sin again, and again; until the day he dies?

When a person or unbeliever becomes a Christian or a believer - God makes them a new creation. They have the indwelling Holy Spirit to help them along the way. Does becoming a Christian make them perfect? No. I don't know exactly where in the Bible you find that, but...

When we become a Christian - a believer in what Jesus has done the cross to save us from OUR sins, then we don't have a desire to sin - to throw our children into a burning building like some of the other "people" on here have been trying use in their explanation. It's quite different when God created HELL for the devil. Any human that decides to step over the cross and ignore every proof that is out there - that's their choice.

No more excuses. You're simply choosing to ignore the truth that stands in front of you with arms open wide.

To be honest - God doesn't SEND people to hell - A person's ignorance and rejection of Jesus is what sends people to hell.

I'm glad that I believe what I believe instead of being stuck in a repetitious argument that goes nowhere - Oh wait - here I am!

How did you arrive at these personal interpretations and beliefs of yours?