The Problem of Evil

[bhsmte]

It's been inferred to me, as well.
I wouldn't let it bother you. Of those who have told me this, they are hateful and mean spirited. Their definition of 'moral' might not be mine.

Non-believers as a general rule, are stereotyped and are prejudiced against by many believers and this has been substantiated with behavioral research. Also, there is no evidence, that Christians have better morals, than non-believers.

In essence, many Christians want to paint non-believers as being less moral, because it makes them feel better about their own beliefs. When in doubt, paint the other guy as being bad.

 

[PsychoSarah]

OK. How do I dance around that one? You can't expect me to think it's good that you're an atheist can you?

I see no point in saying you're a bad person. I've got too much of my own dirty laundry to do that. Why do you think I'm trying so hard to put the emphasis on God's will? This good/evil thing is not for me to judge ... with three caveats:
1) I will continue to point out to you what the Bible says, and certain passages of the Bible may frown upon certain behaviors of yours
2) I will continue to state that God has given government to judge those areas where the Bible is silent. So, it's not as if there is no right to punish bad behavior.
3) And this is the most important one: If you understood the place of the law in Lutheran theology, I'd also be pretty happy with that.

I am fine with that, so long as you recognize that I don't do anything beyond being atheist (and the various offenses such as not going to church that would be directly related to that) that is outright violating "god's will" more than any other person.

 

[Resha Caner]

IMO, the basic Christian story is not something that can be reconciled with the realities of the real world, without a significant amount of psychological gymnastics being employed. And, Christians themselves, have varying degrees of these gymnastics.

Shrug. You do realize I think atheists are also good gymnasts.

I also like to think that people often realize when they are employing those gymnastics. I suppose they might be oblivious. You can't know what you don't know ... and as such I'll say I highly dislike people swooping in and making psychological evaluations of all the things I myself am supposedly unware of ... but, in the end, it gains nothing to accuse someone of mental gymnastics.

I just know for myself that I am aware when it starts to happen. And, in these forums, when that happens, I do my best to say, "OK. Yeah, you're right."

 

[Resha Caner]

I am fine with that, so long as you recognize that I don't do anything beyond being atheist (and the various offenses such as not going to church that would be directly related to that) that is outright violating "god's will" more than any other person.

Yeah ... sure ... but ... well, anytime you're curious about that Lutheran theology thing let me know.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Yeah ... sure ... but ... well, anytime you're curious about that Lutheran theology thing let me know.

Sure, how about right now? The only thing I can say I honestly know about that particular sect is how it historically was founded.

 

[Viren]

You misinterpret my meaning when I say I don't feel that the deity described in the bible as 100% good.

I don't view the bible as having an actual relationship with any deity, therefore as far as I am concerned, if any deity does exist, it isn't described with any accuracy as far as religious texts are concerned.

For all I know, there is some 100% good entity out there. I just don't think that is what fits the entity the bible describes.

I think the problem is caused by looking at everything from an external point of view and interpreting the Bible literally. For example, someone can lose everything they own and this can be looked at as evil. However, if that person through the experience learns the lesson on impermance, then this can lead to spiritual gifts such as inner peace and joy in any circumstance.

Just my two cents.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I think the problem is caused by looking at everything from an external point of view and interpreting the Bible literally. For example, someone can lose everything they own and this can be looked at as evil. However, if that person through the experience learns the lesson on impermance, then this can lead to spiritual gifts such as inner peace and joy in any circumstance.

Just my two cents.

That is fine, but they can't learn a lesson if it outright kills them. Especially in the Old Testament, god tends to have "offensive" people killed without giving them the opportunity to right their suggested wrong.

 

[bhsmte]

Shrug. You do realize I think atheists are also good gymnasts.

I also like to think that people often realize when they are employing those gymnastics. I suppose they might be oblivious. You can't know what you don't know ... and as such I'll say I highly dislike people swooping in and making psychological evaluations of all the things I myself am supposedly unware of ... but, in the end, it gains nothing to accuse someone of mental gymnastics.

I just know for myself that I am aware when it starts to happen. And, in these forums, when that happens, I do my best to say, "OK. Yeah, you're right."

Well Kaner, IMO, one has to perform significant mental gymnastics to reconcile the basic Christian story with the reality of the world we know.

My personal opinion on this, is employing logic and objectivity to the story and if you feel that is mental gymnastics, then you are entitled to that opinion.

 

[Resha Caner]

Sure, how about right now? The only thing I can say I honestly know about that particular sect is how it historically was founded.

My reference was specifically to "law", but maybe a small preamble is in order if you're not familiar with Lutherans.

Though following in the wake of Martin Luther's teachings, the Lutheran church was not founded by Luther. It is more a name given us. And, were it not for Calvinists calling themselves the Reformed church, we might have called ourselves Reformed Catholics. The desire is always a united church, but not at the expense of the truth.

Since all Christians use the Bible in various ways (from the Bible+Tradition stance of the RCC & Orthodox to the "scripture alone" of the Protestants to the "it's a nice book" of today's liberal American churches), the Lutherans have an "exposition" of the Bible called the Book of Concord. It is not considered an infallible book, but rather the best explanation of the Lutheran interpretation of the Bible. Those who adhere to it are called Confessional Lutherans.

I call myself a Confessinal Lutheran, but I'm not perfect, so you may find a few quirks here and there in what I say about Lutheranism.

Article VI of the Book of Concord states that God gave the Law for 3 reasons (my paraphrase):
1) For the discipline of disobedient people
2) So that we'll realize we're imperfect (sinners), and can't live up to God's expectations (the Law)
3) As a guide for believers in seeking God's will and so we are witnesses to the Gospel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_and_gospel

[edit] In Confessional Lutheran churches, what you'll hear most emphasized WRT law is #2.

 

[PsychoSarah]

My reference was specifically to "law", but maybe a small preamble is in order if you're not familiar with Lutherans.

Though following in the wake of Martin Luther's teachings, the Lutheran church was not founded by Luther. It is more a name given us. And, were it not for Calvinists calling themselves the Reformed church, we might have called ourselves Reformed Catholics. The desire is always a united church, but not at the expense of the truth.

Since all Christians use the Bible in various ways (from the Bible+Tradition stance of the RCC & Orthodox to the "scripture alone" of the Protestants to the "it's a nice book" of today's liberal American churches), the Lutherans have an "exposition" of the Bible called the Book of Concord. It is not considered an infallible book, but rather the best explanation of the Lutheran interpretation of the Bible. Those who adhere to it are called Confessional Lutherans.

I call myself a Confessinal Lutheran, but I'm not perfect, so you may find a few quirks here and there in what I say about Lutheranism.

Article VI of the Book of Concord states that God gave the Law for 3 reasons (my paraphrase):
1) For the discipline of disobedient people
2) So that we'll realize we're imperfect (sinners), and can't live up to God's expectations (the Law)
3) As a guide for believers in seeking God's will and so we are witnesses to the Gospel

Law and Gospel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[edit] In Confessional Lutheran churches, what you'll hear most emphasized WRT law is #2.

Well, I certainly agree with number two in that trio.

 

[Resha Caner]

Well, I certainly agree with number two in that trio.

Well, that's good. What is also heavily emphasized in a Confessional church (evenmoreso than law) is the Gospel side of that duet. What I notice a lot in ex-Christians are comments about how the church made them feel terribly guilty or worthless or something along those lines. That is not usually the intent of a Confessional Lutheran (though there are cases where someone's ego does need to come down a notch or two).

The Gospel (which means "Good News", or, more literally, the good story) is meant to be just that - good news.

If you can think of some person you greatly admire and would like to meet, but it probably won't happen (a musician, athlete, scientist, author, whatever), you might look for a way to overcome that hurdle. You would also have to admit that, not having met the person, you don't really know them. There is a sense in which they have to reach out to you. The Gospel is meant to say, "If you want to meet God, and want it to be a pleasant experience, there is a way."

Many in your position might reply, "I don't want to meet God." That is the idea of "resistable grace". You can say no. But, God doesn't want you to say no, so He'll keep pursuing you (as in parables like Luke 15:1-7).

You keeping making statements along the line of, "Maybe there is a good and perfect being, but what the Bible describes isn't that person." So, that's why I keep asking questions like: So you think God's incompetent (or malevolent). What of it? What would you have Him do?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Well, that's good. What is also heavily emphasized in a Confessional church (evenmoreso than law) is the Gospel side of that duet. What I notice a lot in ex-Christians are comments about how the church made them feel terribly guilty or worthless or something along those lines. That is not usually the intent of a Confessional Lutheran (though there are cases where someone's ego does need to come down a notch or two).

The Gospel (which means "Good News", or, more literally, the good story) is meant to be just that - good news.

If you can think of some person you greatly admire and would like to meet, but it probably won't happen (a musician, athlete, scientist, author, whatever), you might look for a way to overcome that hurdle. You would also have to admit that, not having met the person, you don't really know them. There is a sense in which they have to reach out to you. The Gospel is meant to say, "If you want to meet God, and want it to be a pleasant experience, there is a way."

Many in your position might reply, "I don't want to meet God." That is the idea of "resistable grace". You can say no. But, God doesn't want you to say no, so He'll keep pursuing you (as in parables like Luke 15:1-7).

You keeping making statements along the line of, "Maybe there is a good and perfect being, but what the Bible describes isn't that person." So, that's why I keep asking questions like: So you think God's incompetent (or malevolent). What of it? What would you have Him do?

Oh no, I would love to meet god. That would be fantastic actually, regardless as to what god is actually like. At least then I could be sure as to whether or not it existed!

 

[Resha Caner]

Oh no, I would love to meet god. That would be fantastic actually, regardless as to what god is actually like. At least then I could be sure as to whether or not it existed!

I pray that will be accomplished for you.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I pray that will be accomplished for you.

So do I. I assure you though, the day I claim that to have happened will likely be the day the dreaded schizophrenia has kicked in (autistic people like me are far more likely to develop the condition).

 

[bhsmte]

Oh no, I would love to meet god. That would be fantastic actually, regardless as to what god is actually like. At least then I could be sure as to whether or not it existed!

Me too and I would have a boatload of questions for him. If that ever did happen, I don't believe that God would be the God portrayed in the bible.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Me too and I would have a boatload of questions for him. If that ever did happen, I don't believe that God would be the God portrayed in the bible.

Oh, i would be very very surprised if it was.

 

[Resha Caner]

Me too and I would have a boatload of questions for him. If that ever did happen, I don't believe that God would be the God portrayed in the bible.

Oh, i would be very very surprised if it was.

Soooo .....

What would you have Him do?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Soooo .....

You assume I look at god and think I require it to explain its actions to me, and you'd be wrong. I don't assume god to actually love people, I wouldn't expect such an entity to actually care about such temporary beings as humans.

I wouldn't have god do anything different. The world with both its good and bad is fine by me. The only thing I would care about is whether or not belief mattered to such an entity, and if it did, that would be the only sentiment I would want it to change.

 

[bhsmte]

You assume I look at god and think I require it to explain its actions to me, and you'd be wrong. I don't assume god to actually love people, I wouldn't expect such an entity to actually care about such temporary beings as humans.

I wouldn't have god do anything different. The world with both its good and bad is fine by me. The only thing I would care about is whether or not belief mattered to such an entity, and if it did, that would be the only sentiment I would want it to change.

Lets assume for a moment the Christian God was real and I got to meet him, I would ask him these questions and I'm sure he would allow it, if he truly loved me:

-Did you divinely inspire the bible, or was it just a bunch of different men who wrote it?
-If you did inspire the bible, why is there so much inaccurate information and contradictions in the book?
-How do you really feel about slavery, rape, homosexuals, etc.?
-Why did you allow man to wallow on earth for over 100,000 years before you decided to send Jesus to save mankind?
-Why did you only allow Jesus to be exposed to such a small portion of the population, if believing in him was required for eternal life?
-Is it true, that a murderer can be saved/forgiven if they accept Jesus and be granted eternal life and the person who was born into a different religious belief, that lived a good life, be doomed because they don't believe in you?
-Why have you been so quiet and have not given the world clear signs that you exist?

Just a few questions of many I would have.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Lets assume for a moment the Christian God was real and I got to meet him, I would ask him these questions and I'm sure he would allow it, if he truly loved me:

-Did you divinely inspire the bible, or was it just a bunch of different men who wrote it?
-If you did inspire the bible, why is there so much inaccurate information and contradictions in the book?
-How do you really feel about slavery, rape, homosexuals, etc.?
-Why did you allow man to wallow on earth for over 100,000 years before you decided to send Jesus to save mankind?
-Why did you only allow Jesus to be exposed to such a small portion of the population, if believing in him was required for eternal life?
-Is it true, that a murderer can be saved/forgiven if they accept Jesus and be granted eternal life and the person who was born into a different religious belief, that lived a good life, be doomed because they don't believe in you?
-Why have you been so quiet and have not given the world clear signs that you exist?

Just a few questions of many I would have.

Doesn't the fact that you would feel the need to ask tell you that even if god helped out with the bible, the book wasn't perfect in its purpose? If the answer to the first question was yes, I would criticize god for being lazy.