The Problem of Evil

[Resha Caner]

Free will is a phrase thrown around a lot when something wrong happens, ie: 9/11. Why didn't God stop this, some will say. Religious people often answer...well, God gives us free will.

But, when a religious person gets a promotion at work, free will suddenly had nothing to do with it-and it was all God's doing.

Yes, people do that sometimes, and I dislike it as much as you. I don't like the mysticism some people bring to Christianity - the way they turn the Bible into a divining rod and God into Mickey Mouse wearing the sorceror's hat.

But that doesn't answer whether or not we have free will and how it plays in the world.

 

[bhsmte]

I don't believe in the religious notion of evil and free will. People choose their actions, right or wrong. To help or to hurt someone. Free will is a phrase thrown around a lot when something wrong happens, ie: 9/11. Why didn't God stop this, some will say. Religious people often answer...well, God gives us free will.

But, when a religious person gets a promotion at work, free will suddenly had nothing to do with it-and it was all God's doing.

I used to think like this...so I speak from experience.

If there exists a god, he doesn't need me to defend his ''motives.'' If there is an almighty, omnipresent Creator...he needs mere mortals to defend him? Hmmm.

Believers do that, because that is what they have been trained to do; when something good happens, it was God's work. When something bad happens, it is either satan at work, or God works in mysterious ways we can't figure out. Well, they figure it out when something good happens, but seem perplexed, when something bad happens.

 

[Deidre32]

Yes, people do that sometimes, and I dislike it as much as you. I don't like the mysticism some people bring to Christianity - the way they turn the Bible into a divining rod and God into Mickey Mouse wearing the sorceror's hat.

But that doesn't answer whether or not we have free will and how it plays in the world.

Lol I like how you put that!

Most human beings have the capacity to make their own decisions.
Some religions dub this "free will," but to me, it has nothing to do with a deity. (Or evil)

If that weren't the case, we wouldn't see so many altruistic atheists.

 

[Deidre32]

Believers do that, because that is what they have been trained to do; when something good happens, it was God's work. When something bad happens, it is either satan at work, or God works in mysterious ways we can't figure out. Well, they figure it out when something good happens, but seem perplexed, when something bad happens.

Yea, I remember thinking like this. Looking back, I think that line of thinking makes life more confusing than it needs to be. :/

 

[bhsmte]

Yea, I remember thinking like this. Looking back, I think that line of thinking makes life more confusing than it needs to be. :/

It really comes down to attaching all good to their God and protecting him from anything deemed bad.

If one is going to believe in any particular God, certainly, you want to think he is all good.

 

[Deidre32]

It really comes down to attaching all good to their God and protecting him from anything deemed bad.

If one is going to believe in any particular God, certainly, you want to think he is all good.

Such a good way to put it. Therein lied the rub for me. I realized a god was in part what I had been taught to believe and also what I hoped he was.

Were you ever a believer? (just wondering)

 

[bhsmte]

Such a good way to put it. Therein lied the rub for me. I realized a god was in part what I had been taught to believe and also what I hoped he was.

Were you ever a believer? (just wondering)

I was a Christian for the majority of my life. Upon a thorough and in depth analysis of the bible and comparing the same to the realities of the real world, the Christian story was something I could not reconcile any longer.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I don't think this is true, so you'll need to show me the verse you think says this.



Again, context and the associated action. I am married. As part of that marriage, my wife is not to engage in a romantic relationship with another man. It's not an option where she can pick and choose as she thinks it suits the moment. If I see what I consider inappropriate behavior on her part, I am justified in being jealous. I am justified in calling her to account for that behavior.

Likewise, she can do the same to me.



I assume you're referring to Matthew 5:21-26. The context there refers more to hate than anger (as explained in 1 John 3:15). It is an anger that is left to fester until it produces the evil action we spoke of. Jesus is saying the issue needs to be resolved. There is no absolute proclamation that anger is always good or always evil. It can be either.

Many Christians would disagree with you on that one, but if that is how you feel so be it. However, given the favoritism, constant sentencing of people to death, and just overall inflexibility of god, I don't feel that the being described in the bible could be considered 100% good.

 

[Resha Caner]

If that weren't the case, we wouldn't see so many altruistic atheists.

Hmm. Now I'm not sure what you mean by free will. The choice to act for good or bad is independent of whether one is a believer or an atheist.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Hmm. Now I'm not sure what you mean by free will. The choice to act for good or bad is independent of whether one is a believer or an atheist.

You have no idea how much some religious individuals have questioned my morality because I am an atheist. In fact, a few have told me that being atheist in and of itself is immoral. Not all, of course, but enough to bother me.

 

[Deidre32]

I was a Christian for the majority of my life. Upon a thorough and in depth analysis of the bible and comparing the same to the realities of the real world, the Christian story was something I could not reconcile any longer.

That is exactly my story, give or take details I'm sure. lol
I'm glad to meet you here.

 

[Resha Caner]

Many Christians would disagree with you on that one, but if that is how you feel so be it. However, given the favoritism, constant sentencing of people to death, and just overall inflexibility of god, I don't feel that the being described in the bible could be considered 100% good.

I'm sure many Christians do disagree with me. My wife often disagrees with me. Though non-believers like to constantly bring up the diversity of Christianity as if it's proof against God's existence, I think it is God's ability to deal with such diverse opinion that is the beauty of Christianity. (As a note, I am in no way advocating some kind of Universalism here.)

Likewise, I expect it is futile to try to convince you God is good given your current views. However, that was never my intent. If you'll refer to my first post, I was trying to point out that such theodicy is irrelevant to whether God exists. If we were to agree on that, I would consider this a good day.

 

[Viren]

I think evil is a lack of God. So blaming God for evil kind of like blaming the sun for a shadow.

 

[Deidre32]

Hmm. Now I'm not sure what you mean by free will. The choice to act for good or bad is independent of whether one is a believer or an atheist.

True, I don't believe however that a deity provided me with free will.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I think evil is a lack of God. So blaming God for evil kind of like blaming the sun for a shadow.

You misinterpret my meaning when I say I don't feel that the deity described in the bible as 100% good.

I don't view the bible as having an actual relationship with any deity, therefore as far as I am concerned, if any deity does exist, it isn't described with any accuracy as far as religious texts are concerned.

For all I know, there is some 100% good entity out there. I just don't think that is what fits the entity the bible describes.

 

[Deidre32]

You have no idea how much some religious individuals have questioned my morality because I am an atheist. In fact, a few have told me that being atheist in and of itself is immoral. Not all, of course, but enough to bother me.

It's been inferred to me, as well.
I wouldn't let it bother you. Of those who have told me this, they are hateful and mean spirited. Their definition of 'moral' might not be mine.

 

[Resha Caner]

You have no idea how much some religious individuals have questioned my morality because I am an atheist. In fact, a few have told me that being atheist in and of itself is immoral. Not all, of course, but enough to bother me.

OK. How do I dance around that one? You can't expect me to think it's good that you're an atheist can you?

I see no point in saying you're a bad person. I've got too much of my own dirty laundry to do that. Why do you think I'm trying so hard to put the emphasis on God's will? This good/evil thing is not for me to judge ... with three caveats:
1) I will continue to point out to you what the Bible says, and certain passages of the Bible may frown upon certain behaviors of yours
2) I will continue to state that God has given government to judge those areas where the Bible is silent. So, it's not as if there is no right to punish bad behavior.
3) And this is the most important one: If you understood the place of the law in Lutheran theology, I'd also be pretty happy with that.

 

[Resha Caner]

True, I don't believe however that a deity provided me with free will.

That goes without saying.

 

[PsychoSarah]

It's been inferred to me, as well.
I wouldn't let it bother you. Of those who have told me this, they are hateful and mean spirited. Their definition of 'moral' might not be mine.

I think some people lose sight of their own doctrine when they get all flustered and rude.

It even inspired me to write the poem in my signature. It is actually just one piece of a longer poem that remains unfinished, sadly, but this is my best portion of it in my opinion. It is the end of it, it goes through all 7 sins (or at least, it is supposed to, a few are as of yet missing).

 

[bhsmte]

I'm sure many Christians do disagree with me. My wife often disagrees with me. Though non-believers like to constantly bring up the diversity of Christianity as if it's proof against God's existence, I think it is God's ability to deal with such diverse opinion that is the beauty of Christianity. (As a note, I am in no way advocating some kind of Universalism here.)

Likewise, I expect it is futile to try to convince you God is good given your current views. However, that was never my intent. If you'll refer to my first post, I was trying to point out that such theodicy is irrelevant to whether God exists. If we were to agree on that, I would consider this a good day.

I don't believe the diversity of Christianity is necessarily evidence against "a God", but it does show how the bible can be interpreted to say virtually whatever it is you want it to say.

IMO, the basic Christian story is not something that can be reconciled with the realities of the real world, without a significant amount of psychological gymnastics being employed. And, Christians themselves, have varying degrees of these gymnastics.