The prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.

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TheBear

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This is info gathered before 9/11.


al-Qa'ida a.k.a. al Qaeda, "the Base," the Islamic Army, the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, the Islamic Army for the Liberation of the Holy Places, the Usama Bin Laden Network, the Usama Bin Laden Organization, Islamic Salvation Foundation, The Group for the Preservation of the Holy Sites.

Description: Established by Usama Bin Ladin about 1990 to bring together Arabs who fought in Afghanistan against the Soviet invasion. Helped finance, recruit, transport, and train Sunni Islamic extremists for the Afghan resistance. Current goal is to "reestablish the Muslim State" throughout the world. Works with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it deems "non-Islamic" and remove Westerners from Muslim countries. Issued statement under banner of "The World Islamic Front for Jihad Against The Jews and Crusaders" in February 1998, saying it was the duty of all Muslims to kill US citizens, civilian or military, and their allies everywhere.

Activities: Conducted the bombings of the US Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar Es Salaam, Tanzania, on 7 August that killed at least 301 persons and injured more than 5,000 others. Claims to have shot down US helicopters and killed US servicemen in Somalia in 1993 and to have conducted three bombings targeted against the US troop presence in Aden, Yemen in December 1992. Linked to plans for attempted terrorist operations, including the assassination of the Pope during his visit to Manila in late 1994; simultaneous bombings of the US and Israeli Embassies in Manila and other Asian capitals in late 1994; the midair bombing of a dozen US trans-Pacific flights in 1995; and a plan to kill President Clinton during a visit to the Philippines in early 1995. Continues to train, finance, and provide logistic support to terrorist groups that support these goals.

Strength: May have from several hundred to several thousand members. Also serves as the core of a loose umbrella organization that includes many Sunni Islamic extremist groups, including factions of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, the Gama'at al-Islamiyya, and the Harakat ul-Mujahidin.

Location/Area of Operation: The Embassy bombings in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam underscore al-Qa'ida's global reach. Bin Ladin and his key lieutenants reside in Afghanistan, and the group maintains terrorist training camps there.

External Aid: Bin Ladin, son of a billionaire Saudi family, is said to have inherited around $300 million that he uses to finance the group. Al-Qa'ida also maintains money-making businesses, collects donations from like-minded supporters, and illicitly siphons funds from donations to Muslim charitable organizations.


John
 
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Egoinos

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These are parts of an article which may interest you:

Title: I know what Camp X-Ray Feels Like
Author: Charles Glass
Source: New Statesman magazine, 28-JAN-02

"The first thing they do is cover your eyes. They make you strip to make sure you're not carrying anything. They replace your clothes with uniforms that are not clothes at all. They chain you by hand and foot. They drag you away and leave you on your own. They interrogate you. They say you are going to die if you won't talk. They feed you - you're not much good to them if you starve to death.
"It sounds like Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to which the United States military is deporting men it has captured in Afganistan. But it was Lebanon in the 1980's. The Hezbollah, Lebanon's Shi'ite Muslim Party of God, kidnapped foreigners between 1982 and 1989 at the behest of their Iranian benefactors. I remember the drill - the blindfold, chains, solitude and loneliness. I was there for two months in 1987. It was a bad time, and it seemed unlikely to me then that I would one day see photographs of my countrymen treating Muslim prisoners much as I was treated.
"I thought the Eighth Amendment to the US constitution prohibited "cruel and unusual punishments". I'm looking at the Bill of Rights, the first ten amendments that Americans regard as sacred, and read the words "nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted". Full stop. It does not say that only American passport-holders, legal residents of the United States and members of the Senate who take contributions from corporations that violate the law are exempt from government torments. It makes clear that no category of human being is excluded from America's obligation to regrain from cruel and unusual punishments. Amendment VIII means suspects; it means enemies; it means criminals; it means prisoners of war; it means - and the term is as new to me and you as it undoubtedly is to the US defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld - 'illegal' combatants. Who is illegal and who is legal, by the way, has always been for the courts of the United States to decide, not the Department of Defence. As for international law, the Geneva Conventions say that "captured combatants or civilians" have certain rights - including to correspond with their families - without any distinction between 'legal' and 'illegal' combatants.
(...)
"If Rumsfeld has not read the constitution to which he has taken an oath, if he does not see the cruelty in the treatment of those men in Cuba, he could at least admit that tying men up, blocking their sight, cutting them off from their families and flying them around the world is unusual.
""The fact is that treatment is proper," Rumsfeld insisted. "There is no doubt in my mind that it is humane and appropriate and consistent with the Geneva Conventions for the most part." For the most part? Which part? The shackles? The blindfold goggles? The six-by-eight cages? At least Hezbollah put me in a normal-sized room.
(...)
"An American may some day be arrested or kidnapped by those who sympathies lie with the Camp X-Ray detainees. What will his captors say when he pleads that his conditions violate international law? Will their answer be to play for him videotapes of the X-Ray detainees and of Rumsfeld's press conferences?"

http://www.newstatesman.co.uk
 
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TheBear

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Thank you, Egoinos.

I have read that article before. I think the more appropriate title should have been, "This is how I imagine Camp X-Ray to be. After all, I have never been there and I have never witnessed any mistreatment there."

Have you read any information I've posted about Al Qaeda and the Taliban? Why are you such a sympathizer and supporter of these murderous evildoers? It boggles my mind. :confused:

John
 
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"Why are you such a sympathizer and supporter of these murderous evildoers? "

You seem to have broken down all human beings into 2 categories: people who agree with you, and those who are terrorist-loving, leftist, immoral, and evil-supporting.
I will venture a guess that the issues are a little less black and white than that.
 
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TheBear

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Originally posted by strathyboy
"Why are you such a sympathizer and supporter of these murderous evildoers? "

You seem to have broken down all human beings into 2 categories: people who agree with you, and those who are terrorist-loving, leftist, immoral, and evil-supporting.
I will venture a guess that the issues are a little less black and white than that.

And you, my friend, have managed to blur the lines, to the point of having these 'wonderful' people over for dinner every Sunday.

John
 
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Egoinos

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Originally posted by TheBear
I have read that article before. I think the more appropriate title should have been, "This is how I imagine Camp X-Ray to be. After all, I have never been there and I have never witnessed any mistreatment there."

Or, this is how the camp has been seen from the photographs and statements released from the American government.

Have you read any information I've posted about Al Qaeda and the Taliban? Why are you such a sympathizer and supporter of these murderous evildoers? It boggles my mind.

I am not a supporter of terrorism.
I am not a supporter of authoritarian, theocratic government.
I am a supporter of justice.
These men have not been tried - they are innocent until proven guilty. These are not the terrorists who attacked America, these are the common soldiers of the then government of Afganistan.
If we do not wish to descend to their level, we should not be advocating anything less than pure justice for these men. If they are tried in open court, given the means to defend themselves in that court, and are found guilty, then I have no disagreement with that.
I am, however, suspicious of the fact that they have been denied POW status - why deny them the protection of the Geneva Conventions unless you mean to infringe those conventions?
I am worried that America will merely take revenge on these men, because of her loss, without going through due process of law. And I am worried about the international ramifications of such an action - if America can disregard the Geneva Convention, others can too. And if America can ignore justice, so can others. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
And I am worried that America will bomb or otherwise attack any country she does not like, from excessive fear of this occuring again, without looking at the reasons for it occurring in the first place.
I am not on the side of the terrorists, I am only arguing for justice, and transparency of actions - we the people should know what our governments are doing in our name.
 
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Welcome to the PETCA forum.

I'd also like to add that the American justice system works! Prime Example-OJ Simpson was proven innocent!!!!

We should hire OJ's lawyers- Johnny Cochrane and all the best lawyers for those prisoners. And then we can prove that it was REALLY George Bush who caused those planes to fly into the WTC and Pentagon buildings! :) LOL!!!Hahahahahaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!

ONLY Just kidding!

YM

Seriously, if they were given POW status they'd be on their way back to Afganistan now at the moment. It would be a bonus if some of their supporters would also fly with them on the same plane and make sure everything goes OK! :)


Originally posted by Egoinos

I am, however, suspicious of the fact that they have been denied POW status - why deny them the protection of the Geneva
 
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Bush stated a few days ago that he was giving all the prisoners all the rights present in the Geneva Convention, but that he would not actually call the detainees POW's.
He stated that they would be sent home at the end of the war, although whether this is referring to the "war on terrorism" or the war against Afghanistan, he didn't specify.

I know people who sincerely believe that it was Bush who orchestrated the WTC attacks. :)
 
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TheBear

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To all who claim the the prisoners at Camp X-Ray are being treated inhumanely:

You are the claimants here. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you. No, 'He said-She said'. No speculation or theory. No 'I heard it from a friend, who heard it from a friend'. No 'possible this' or 'possible that'. None of this 'I think it's possible because....'.

Proof is all that counts. Credible, undeniable evidence.......Period.

So, put up or....... :D

John
 
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TheBear

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Originally posted by strathyboy
Good point.
How do you know the detainees in Guantanamo did anything wrong? Did you talk to them?
If we can't make bad claims against the US, then you can't make bad claims against the detainees. :)

Oh, please!

Now the conversation takes a turn for the worse. Do you see how asinine those statements are?

The U.S. had good reason to capture and detain these people. Or, do you think that the U.S. just grabbed people at random and arbitrarily decided that they were the bad guys?

Like I said, this conversation is taking a turn for the worse. Please, if you are going to reply, put a little reality and thought into it. OK? This isn't the paranoia and conspiracy theory thread. (I think that's another website. ;) )

John
 
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I'm aware that the statement I made was silly. However, to believe that the US is and will be completely moral and altruistic in it's dealings with members of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda is to ignore American history for the last 50 years.
I believe that a little suspicion is in order. To use the "innocent until proven guilty thing" when it comes to the US is incrediby naive.
Like I said before, Bush has already promised to give the detainees all the rights guaranteed to POW's in the Geneva Convention. Given that, the simple fact that Bush adamantly refuses to use the term POW in relation to the detainees is in itself suspicious.
 
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