• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Primeval Age of the World

Status
Not open for further replies.

Remus

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2004
666
30
55
Austin, TX
✟23,471.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This is the commentary on Genesis 1 from The Pulpit Commentary. I thought it gave an interesting perspective.

-------------------------------

That this initial section is not history is apparent from the circumstance that the occurrences it describes belong to a period of time which antedates the dawn of history. That it is not science is evinced by the fact that, in some, at least, of its particulars, it refers to a condition of our globe concerning which even modern research has attained to no definite conclusions, which in all of them it claims to be regarded not as uttering the findings of reason, but as declaring the course of nature. That still less can it be myth must be obvious to any who will carefully contrast it with those heathen cosmogonies which it is said to resemble. Only the most absolute devotion to preconceived opinion can render one oblivious of its immense superiority to them in respect of both simplicity of construction and sublimity of conception. The absurdities, puerilities, and monstrosities that about in them are conspicuously absent from it. It along ascends to the idea of a creation ex nihilo, and of a supreme Intelligence by whom that creation is effected. Unlike them, it is destitute of either local colouring or national peculiarity, being no more Jewish than it is Assyrian or Indian, Persian or Egyptian. The inspired original, of which heathen creation-stories are the corrupted traditions, it may be ; impartial reason and honest criticism alike forbid its relegation to a common category with them. Since, then, it is neither history, nor science, nor mythology, it must be REVELATION ; unless indeed it be regarded as either "the recorded intuition of the first man, handed down by tradition," a theory successfully demonstrated by Kurtz to be altogether inadequate, or the inductive speculation of some primitive cosmogonist, a solution of its genesis scarcely less satisfactory. To characterize it as a pious fraud, of post-Mosaic origin, written to uphold the Jewish week cycle and the institution of the Jewish sabbath, is not only to negative its inspiration, but to invalidate the Divine authority of the whole book, to which it serves as an introduction. Happily its inspiration is a much less violent supposition than its invention, and one which is susceptible of almost perfect demonstration. Rightly viewed, its inspiration is involved in the simpler question of its truthfulness. If the Mosaic cosmogony is true, it can only have been given by inspiration ; and that it is true may be said to be, with rapidly augmenting emphasis, the verdict of science.

-------------------------------
Emphasis original
 

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Remus said:
This is the commentary on Genesis 1 from The Pulpit Commentary. I thought it gave an interesting perspective.

Interesting, yes. But I still have problems with it. For example:

-------------------------------

To characterize it as a pious fraud, of post-Mosaic origin, written to uphold the Jewish week cycle and the institution of the Jewish sabbath, is not only to negative its inspiration, but to invalidate the Divine authority of the whole book, to which it serves as an introduction.

"fraud" is an emotion-laden word. I would not consider any writer of the OT to be committing fraud if s/he wrote a creation story based on common cosmological conceptions of their age.

That aside, the author of the commentary is proposing a false dichotomy.

Either the attribution of Genesis to Moses is correct

Or Genesis was not a product of divine inspiration.

But why could God not inspire a post-Mosaic author? After all, Genesis makes no claim to have been written by Moses. This was an attribution made centuries later by Jewish rabbinical schools. There is no reason to consider that their attribution of the writings to Moses was inspired.




If the Mosaic cosmogony is true, it can only have been given by inspiration ; and that it is true may be said to be, with rapidly augmenting emphasis, the verdict of science.

-------------------------------
Emphasis original

Well, it is not quite the verdict of science. If our universe is the only universe, then big bang theory agrees with creation out of nothing. But there are those who suggest that our universe is part of a greater mega-universe. All views which take us beyond the big bang are currently speculative and it is not possible to resolve which is the correct view. But it is not resolved (scientifically) whether our universe was or was not created out of nothing. So creation out of nothing is still a matter of revelation, not science.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Janus
Upvote 0

Remus

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2004
666
30
55
Austin, TX
✟23,471.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
gluadys said:
"fraud" is an emotion-laden word. I would not consider any writer of the OT to be committing fraud if s/he wrote a creation story based on common cosmological conceptions of their age.

That aside, the author of the commentary is proposing a false dichotomy.

Either the attribution of Genesis to Moses is correct

Or Genesis was not a product of divine inspiration.

But why could God not inspire a post-Mosaic author? After all, Genesis makes no claim to have been written by Moses. This was an attribution made centuries later by Jewish rabbinical schools. There is no reason to consider that their attribution of the writings to Moses was inspired.
I don’t think that is what he’s saying. He’s hard to follow at times and it seems to be a fairly old writing, so it’s easy to misunderstand him. I read that sentence to mean that something like this:

To conclude that it is a story contrived by someone after Moses to uphold the Jewish sabbith…

Basically, he’s saying that if the story was a deliberate deception, then it wasn’t inspired. If it wasn’t inspired, then that invalidates the entire book. The focus seems to be on the intent rather than the author. Perhaps the claim that Genesis was a “pious fraud” was prevalent at the time (speculation on my part).

Well, it is not quite the verdict of science.
I'm not sure where he's headed with this myself. It would be helpful if I could ever find the date that this was written. *still searching*
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Remus said:
I don’t think that is what he’s saying. He’s hard to follow at times and it seems to be a fairly old writing, so it’s easy to misunderstand him. I read that sentence to mean that something like this:

To conclude that it is a story contrived by someone after Moses to uphold the Jewish sabbith…

Basically, he’s saying that if the story was a deliberate deception, then it wasn’t inspired. If it wasn’t inspired, then that invalidates the entire book. The focus seems to be on the intent rather than the author. Perhaps the claim that Genesis was a “pious fraud” was prevalent at the time (speculation on my part).

I agree that if it was written to deceive it is not inspired. However, the author of the commentary seems to imply that if it were written by a post-Mosaic author to uphold the Jewish sabbath, that is evidence of deceit.

I don't accept that. God could well inspire a post-Mosaic author to write this account for the purpose of upholding the Jewish sabbath, with no intention of deceit.

"Pious fraud" was indeed a 19th century term applied to some passages of scripture, though I had not heard it applied to Genesis 1 before. A better example of "pious fraud" would be Matthew's story of the nativity of Jesus, which most scholars agree is a midrash---a pious story invented for teaching purposes. Midrash was a well-developed rabbinic practice at the time and though it was understood that the story was fictitious, it was not considered deceptive.

1890 fits the stage of the early controversies over "higher criticism" or the literary and linguistic analysis of scripture, which gave us, among other things, the documentary thesis of the composition and assembly of the Torah, the three author's of the book of Isaiah, and a general questioning of the traditional attributions of authorship in favor of a more scientific exploration of the origins of various books of the bible.

Even in liberal churches, much of this scholarship remained in academia and was not made available to the average church member until the 1960s. I was a university student at the time the United Church of Canada published its "new curriculum" for adults and I remember the controversy it raised. I also remember that it really opened up the bible for me and solidified my commitment to Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Remus

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2004
666
30
55
Austin, TX
✟23,471.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
gluadys said:
I agree that if it was written to deceive it is not inspired. However, the author of the commentary seems to imply that if it were written by a post-Mosaic author to uphold the Jewish sabbath, that is evidence of deceit.
I suppose that we'll just have to disagree. I read him to be saying that if it's a pious fraud, then it ins't inspired.

A better example of "pious fraud" would be Matthew's story of the nativity of Jesus, which most scholars agree is a midrash---a pious story invented for teaching purposes. Midrash was a well-developed rabbinic practice at the time and though it was understood that the story was fictitious, it was not considered deceptive.
Let's delve into this one if you don't mind. From what I've read, "Midrash" does not equate to "pious fraud" in any way that I've been able to find. How do you make this connection? What are you using as a definition of "pious fraud"?

On a general note, in most cases, authorship is a minor issue so I don't see much of a discussion there.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Remus said:
I suppose that we'll just have to disagree. I read him to be saying that if it's a pious fraud, then it ins't inspired.


Let's delve into this one if you don't mind. From what I've read, "Midrash" does not equate to "pious fraud" in any way that I've been able to find. How do you make this connection? What are you using as a definition of "pious fraud"?

On a general note, in most cases, authorship is a minor issue so I don't see much of a discussion there.

I was just suggesting that when Christian theologians first became aware of the role midrash played in Jewish teaching, they could well have used the term "pious fraud" as a way to describe it. The phrase does not seem to be used much today in any framework and I very much doubt that any theologian today would refer to midrash as any kind of fraud.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.