The Primacy Of Peter

[simonthezealot]

I have requested the citation in a Catholic forum. I'll find out in a while

Which one spero, CAF or Envoy?

 

[simonthezealot]

The Writings Against the Manichaeans and Against the Donatists''
Got it, thanks anyway...

 

[Catholic Christian]

Share with us the writings that this is from...If ya know?

St. Augustine, "Against the Letter of Mani Called ‘The Foundation’" 5:6 ( AD 397 ):

"If you should find someone who does not yet believe in the gospel what would you [Mani] answer him when he says, 'I do not believe' ”?

"Indeed, I [Augustine] would not believe the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so."

 

[chestertonrules]

Clement does speak with force. There are plenty of letters with just as much force which are not from Bishops of Rome but are not used as examples of their primacy.
Clement never once asserts the primacy of his office. He has ample opportunity, but does not.

Of course he does.


What do you call this?

Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger.


Many bishops spoke with authority to those within their juridiction. They did not speak with authority to those outside their church or to Rome.

 

[prodromos]

Many bishops spoke with authority to those within their juridiction. They did not speak with authority to those outside their church or to Rome.

Corinth was a Roman settlement in the middle of Greece, the original inhabitants having been put to the sword or sold into slavery after a failed uprising. The city had been rebuilt and populated by Romans. Their cultural ties were with Rome, they had regular trade and hence, regular correspondence with Rome. The Church in Corinth had strong ties with the Church in Rome, both having been established by Paul, and they would have known Clement well as he had been a close companion of Paul's on his missionary journeys. It was also likely that many in the Church in Corinth had fled there from the persecutions in Rome.

Thus, when the troubles arose in the Church in Corinth, they sought the ruling of the authority that they already knew. Clement was a close follower of Paul and had been established as bishop by both Peter and Paul. He was someone that all the factions in Corinth could trust and whose ruling they would accept. They did not write to Rome asking for advice, they wrote asking for a decision, and that is exactly what Clement gave them.

John

 

[chestertonrules]

((They did not write to Rome asking for advice, they wrote asking for a decision, and that is exactly what Clement gave them.
)))

Your point?

 

[chestertonrules]

Irenaues
universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority -- that is, the faithful everywhere -- inasmuch as the Apostolic Tradition has been preserved continuously by those who are everywhere


This is particularly important. Notice that Irenaues said that Rome has authority, undoubtedly a controversial view but he certainly felt that way as did others at that time, but look at the reason why. Not because Peter had a specific successor but their adherence to the Apostles teachings(which we also believe as well, this is preserved in the Bible). Notice also Peter and Paul.

Read your own posting, slowly...

universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops.


BY MEANS OF SUCCESSION!

 

[Catholic Christian]

They did not write to Rome asking for advice, they wrote asking for a decision, and that is exactly what Clement gave them. Your point?

Bullseye !!

 

[prodromos]

Your point?

Removed from the context of the rest of my post, you will of course "miss the point".

John

 

[prodromos]

Bullseye !!

Fool proof way of always hitting the target. Shoot first, and then define what you hit as the target. Too bad for CR that it happened to be his foot.

John

 

[JacktheCatholic]

they wrote [to Rome] asking for a decision, and that is exactly what Clement gave them.

John

Enough said

 

[JacktheCatholic]

"The papacy, being the most harmful of all secret societies, ought to be abolished."

--General Giuseppe Garibaldi, hero of Italy

Conspiracy theories and those that are obsessed with tyhem can be a sign of a heightened paranoia.


Bullseye = right in the foot. LOL

Wiki quote:
Many of the volunteers were taken prisoner, including Garibaldi, who had been wounded by a shot in the foot.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Peter pronounces the first dogmatic decision.

[bible]acts 15:19[/bible]

Peter excommunicates first heretic from the Church

[bible]acts 8:21[/bible]

Peter led the first council in Jerusalem.

[bible]acts 15:7[/bible]

 

[Brennin]

Conspiracy theories and those that are obsessed with tyhem can be a sign of a heightened paranoia.


Bullseye = right in the foot. LOL

Wiki quote:
Many of the volunteers were taken prisoner, including Garibaldi, who had been wounded by a shot in the foot.

The papacy was worse back then, before being humbled by General Garibaldi and King Vittorio Emanuele II. Never again will the papacy trouble Italy with its temporal rule.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The papacy was worse back then, before being humbled by General Garibaldi and King Vittorio Emanuele II. Never again will the papacy trouble Italy with its temporal rule.

I am still laughing at his wound to his foot. LOL

For what it is worth... the role of a Pope is to be a servant of servants. He is a servant and not a dictator. Many people do not seem to grasp this.

 

[Brennin]

Peter led the first council in Jerusalem.

[bible]acts 15:7[/bible]

Instead of just lifting verses from RC apologia sites I suggest reading in context. James led the council.

Acts 15

6 The apostles and the elders met together to consider this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, ‘My brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that I should be the one through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the good news and become believers. 8And God, who knows the human heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us; 9and in cleansing their hearts by faith he has made no distinction between them and us. 10Now therefore why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? 11On the contrary, we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.’

12 The whole assembly kept silence, and listened to Barnabas and Paul as they told of all the signs and wonders that God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13After they finished speaking, James replied, ‘My brothers, listen to me. 14Simeon has related how God first looked favourably on the Gentiles, to take from among them a people for his name. 15This agrees with the words of the prophets, as it is written,
16“After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen;
from its ruins I will rebuild it,
and I will set it up,
17so that all other peoples may seek the Lord—
even all the Gentiles over whom my name has been called.
Thus says the Lord, who has been making these things 18known from long ago.”
19Therefore I have reached the decision that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God, 20but we should write to them to abstain only from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from whatever has been strangled and from blood. 21For in every city, for generations past, Moses has had those who proclaim him, for he has been read aloud every sabbath in the synagogues.’
22 Then the apostles and the elders, with the consent of the whole church, decided to choose men from among their members and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas.

 

[Brennin]

For what it is worth... the role of a Pope is to be a servant of servants. He is a servant and not a dictator. Many people do not seem to grasp this.

Among those "many people" are the popes of the past, who grasped at temporal power and wealth.

"It is in vain that my enemies try to make me out an atheist. I believe in God. I am of the religion of Christ, not of the religion of the Popes. I do not admit any intermediary between God and man. Priests have merely trust themselves in, in order to make a trade of religion. They are the enemies of true religion, liberty, and progress; they are the original cause of our slavery and degradation, and in order to subjugate the souls of Italians, they have called in foreigners to enchain our bodies. The foreigners we have expelled, now we must expel those mitered and tonsured traitors who summoned them. The people must be taught that it is not enough to have a free country, but that they must learn to exercise the rights and perform the duties of free men. Duty! duty! that is the word. Our people must learn their duties to their families, their duties to their country, their duty to humanity"

--General Garibaldi

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Instead of just lifting verses from RC apologia sites I suggest reading in context. James led the council.

Acts 15

6 The apostles and the elders met together to consider this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, ‘My brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that I should be the one through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the good news and become believers. 8And God, who knows the human heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us; 9and in cleansing their hearts by faith he has made no distinction between them and us. 10Now therefore why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? 11On the contrary, we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.’

12 The whole assembly kept silence, and listened to Barnabas and Paul as they told of all the signs and wonders that God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13After they finished speaking, James replied, ‘My brothers, listen to me. 14Simeon has related how God first looked favourably on the Gentiles, to take from among them a people for his name. 15This agrees with the words of the prophets, as it is written,
16“After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen;
from its ruins I will rebuild it,
and I will set it up,
17so that all other peoples may seek the Lord—
even all the Gentiles over whom my name has been called.
Thus says the Lord, who has been making these things 18known from long ago.”
19Therefore I have reached the decision that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God, 20but we should write to them to abstain only from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from whatever has been strangled and from blood. 21For in every city, for generations past, Moses has had those who proclaim him, for he has been read aloud every sabbath in the synagogues.’
22 Then the apostles and the elders, with the consent of the whole church, decided to choose men from among their members* and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas.

James was leading nothing...

Read it again.

James is cosigning what Peter said and decided already. If the President told the Nation that we are going into Afghanistan to fight the war on terror and then the vice president adds his two cents as to why it is good then that does not make the vice president the president. Now does it? And would it make sense for the vice president to say we are going to war and then the president say "yeah that is a good idea glad you decided that mr vice president". Of course not and yet that is how you are twisting this passage of Acts.

19 For which cause, judge that they who from among the Gentiles are converted to God are not to be disquieted: 20 But that we write unto them, that they refrain themselves from the pollutions of idols and from fornication and from things strangled and from blood.



13 Et postquam tacuerunt, respondit Jacobus, dicens: Viri fratres, audite me. 14 Simon narravit quemadmodum primum Deus visitavit sumere ex gentibus populum nomini suo. 15 Et huic concordant verba prophetarum: sicut scriptum est:

16 Post hæc revertar,​

et reædificabo tabernaculum David quod decidit:​

et diruta ejus reædificabo,​

et erigam illud:​

17 ut requirant ceteri hominum Dominum,​

et omnes gentes super quas invocatum est nomen meum,​

dicit Dominus faciens hæc.​

18 Notum a sæculo est Domino opus suum.​

19 Propter quod ego judico non inquietari eos qui ex gentibus convertuntur ad Deum, 20 sed scribere ad eos ut abstineant se a contaminationibus simulacrorum, et fornicatione, et suffocatis, et sanguine. 21 Moyses enim a temporibus antiquis habet in singulis civitatibus qui eum prædicent in synagogis, ubi per omne sabbatum legitur.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Among those "many people" are the popes of the past, who grasped at temporal power and wealth.

"It is in vain that my enemies try to make me out an atheist. I believe in God. I am of the religion of Christ, not of the religion of the Popes. I do not admit any intermediary between God and man. Priests have merely trust themselves in, in order to make a trade of religion. They are the enemies of true religion, liberty, and progress; they are the original cause of our slavery and degradation, and in order to subjugate the souls of Italians, they have called in foreigners to enchain our bodies. The foreigners we have expelled, now we must expel those mitered and tonsured traitors who summoned them. The people must be taught that it is not enough to have a free country, but that they must learn to exercise the rights and perform the duties of free men. Duty! duty! that is the word. Our people must learn their duties to their families, their duties to their country, their duty to humanity"

--General Garibaldi

LOL!!!

Dude stop bringing up this Italian dude with the wounded foot. It is hilarious and making me laugh.

"General" Garibaldi... LOL

Also I am not aware of any Pope becoming wealthy from being a Pope so your assertion of grasping for wealth makes no sense to me.
The power thing probably has a ring of truth to it though but I am not judging.

 

[Brennin]

James was leading nothing...

Read it again.

James is cosigning what Peter said and decided already. If the President told the Nation that we are going into Afghanistan to fight the war on terror and then the vice president adds his two cents as to why it is good then that does not make the vice president the president. Now does it? And would it make sense for the vice president to say we are going to war and then the president say "yeah that is a good idea glad you decided that mr vice president". Of course not and yet that is how you are twisting this passage of Acts.

No, you read it again. James rendered the decision, not Peter, the rotting fictions of Rome not withstanding. Furthermore:

Galatians 2:9-10
...and when James and Cephas and John, who were acknowledged pillars, recognized the grace that had been given to me, they gave to Barnabas and me the right hand of fellowship, agreeing that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. They asked only one thing, that we remember the poor, which was actually what I was eager to do.

Who is listed first by Paul? James, not Peter. Also, Paul refers to pillars, not pillar.