The Primacy Of Peter

[Brennin]

You posted a letter that was written disputing the Bishop of Rome's decission. I am asking what ultimately happened as a resolution to the dispute and how it came about.

Cyprian and Stephen were no longer in communion.

I am asking because your quote is a good one but really only helps to support the claim that the church of Rome held the authority even in the early church.

The Roman See held an authority but not the authority.

 

[Brennin]

You choose to ignore the facts.

Clement was in fact acting as pope when he corrected the corinthians. He claimed to be speaking for Christ, and he was!

Clement of Rome​

Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).​

No, sorry, Clement did not claim to be "pope." The "through us" should be instructive. No amount of projection can vindicate papalism.

 

[chestertonrules]

No, sorry, Clement did not claim to be "pope." The "through us" should be instructive. No amount of projection can vindicate papalism.

More evidence for you to ignore!

St. Irenaeus of Lyons
Additional telling pieces of early Christian evidence for the Catholic argument are from the writings of St. Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons (d. c. AD 202). I'll quote from his book AGAINST HERESIES (c. AD 180). The extracts below are from Fr. Jurgens, THE FAITH OF THE EARLY FATHERS, Vol. 1, p. 90.
[AH 3, 3, 2] But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the Churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self satisfaction or vain glory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, that Church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition.
It is difficult not to conclude that St. Irenaeus was testifying to belief that the Church in Rome holds a unique authority only she can hold. And, that's not the only passage from St. Irenaeus affirming such a doctrine!
[AH 3, 3, 3] The blessed Apostles [Peter & Paul], having founded and built up the Church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the Epistle to Timothy. To him succeeded Anencletus [or Anacletus]; and after him in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed Apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that He still heard the echoes of the preaching of the Apostles, and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the Apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the Church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. ... To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded; and Alexander succeeded Evaristus. Then, sixth after the Apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telesphorus, who also was gloriously martyred. Then Hyginus; after him, Pius; and after him, Anicetus. Soter succeeded Anicetus, and now, in the twelfth place after the Apostles, the lot of the episcopate has fallen to Eleutherus. In this order, and by the teaching of the Apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us.

 

[Catholic Christian]

No, sorry, Clement did not claim to be "pope." The "through us" should be instructive. No amount of projection can vindicate papalism.

You don't get it: "Bishop Of Rome" and "Pope" are synonymous. He didn't HAVE to claim it: Everyone KNEW he sat in the Chair of Peter.

 

[Catholic Christian]

Clement and Ignatius do not support your papalism, sorry.

What the heck is Papalism? Man, you kill me sometimes with that goofy stuff.

 

[Brennin]

More evidence for you to ignore!

St. Irenaeus of Lyons
Additional telling pieces of early Christian evidence for the Catholic argument are from the writings of St. Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons (d. c. AD 202). I'll quote from his book AGAINST HERESIES (c. AD 180). The extracts below are from Fr. Jurgens, THE FAITH OF THE EARLY FATHERS, Vol. 1, p. 90.
...
It is difficult not to conclude that St. Irenaeus was testifying to belief that the Church in Rome holds a unique authority only she can hold. And, that's not the only passage from St. Irenaeus affirming such a doctrine!
...

Irenaeus was wrong on more than one occasion:

5. They, however, that they may establish their false opinion regarding that which is written, "to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord," maintain that He preached for one year only, and then suffered in the twelfth month. [In speaking thus,] they are forgetful to their own disadvantage, destroying His whole work, and robbing Him of that age which is both more necessary and more honourable than any other; that more advanced age, I mean, during which also as a teacher He excelled all others. For how could He have had disciples, if He did not teach? And how could He have taught, unless He had reached the age of a Master? For when He came to be baptized, He had not yet completed His thirtieth year, but was beginning to be about thirty years of age (for thus Luke, who has mentioned His years, has expressed it:"Now Jesus was, as it were, beginning to be thirty years old," Luke 3:23baptism); and, [according to these men,] He preached only one year reckoning from His baptism. On completing His thirtieth year He suffered, being in fact still a young man, and who had by no means attained to advanced age.Now, that the first stage of early life embraces thirty years, and that this extends onwards to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information. And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan. Some of them, moreover, saw not only John, but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the [validity of] the statement. Whom then should we rather believe? Whether such men as these, or Ptolemæus, who never saw the apostles, and who never even in his dreams attained to the slightest trace of an apostle?

 

[Brennin]

What the heck is Papalism? Man, you kill me sometimes with that goofy stuff.

The doctrine of papal supremacy and related nonsense as well as advocacy of the same.

 

[Brennin]

You don't get it: "Bishop Of Rome" and "Pope" are synonymous. He didn't HAVE to claim it: Everyone KNEW he sat in the Chair of Peter.

And you don't get that "pope" is a dark ages invention that cannot be projected back into Early Christianity.

 

[simonthezealot]

Clement of Rome​

Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).​

Clement does speak with force. There are plenty of letters with just as much force which are not from Bishops of Rome but are not used as examples of their primacy.
Clement never once asserts the primacy of his office. He has ample opportunity, but does not.

 

[Brennin]

Clement does speak with force. There are plenty of letters with just as much force which are not from Bishops of Rome but are not used as examples of their primacy.
Clement never once asserts the primacy of his office. He has ample opportunity, but does not.

You are, of course, correct but RC apologists are accustomed to engage in blatant eisegesis, not unlike judicial activists.

 

[Brennin]

"The papacy, being the most harmful of all secret societies, ought to be abolished."

--General Giuseppe Garibaldi, hero of Italy

 

[simonthezealot]

St. Irenaeus of Lyons

Irenaues
universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority -- that is, the faithful everywhere -- inasmuch as the Apostolic Tradition has been preserved continuously by those who are everywhere


This is particularly important. Notice that Irenaues said that Rome has authority, undoubtedly a controversial view but he certainly felt that way as did others at that time, but look at the reason why. Not because Peter had a specific successor but their adherence to the Apostles teachings(which we also believe as well, this is preserved in the Bible). Notice also Peter and Paul.

 

[Catholic Christian]

"The papacy, being the most harmful of all secret societies, ought to be abolished."

--General Giuseppe Garibaldi, hero of Italy

Kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel for quotes, aren't you?

 

[Brennin]

Kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel for quotes, aren't you?

No, he was a true hero, unlike many of your popes, who were more concerned with the simoniacal arts, hedonism, and strutting about like Oriental potentates.

"It is in vain that my enemies try to make me out an atheist. I believe in God. I am of the religion of Christ, not of the religion of the Popes. I do not admit any intermediary between God and man. Priests have merely trust themselves in, in order to make a trade of religion. They are the enemies of true religion, liberty, and progress; they are the original cause of our slavery and degradation, and in order to subjugate the souls of Italians, they have called in foreigners to enchain our bodies. The foreigners we have expelled, now we must expel those mitered and tonsured traitors who summoned them. The people must be taught that it is not enough to have a free country, but that they must learn to exercise the rights and perform the duties of free men. Duty! duty! that is the word. Our people must learn their duties to their families, their duties to their country, their duty to humanity"

--General Garibaldi

 

[simonthezealot]

Kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel for quotes, aren't you?

Always liked this one
ON John XXIII:
‘The most scandalous charges were suppressed; the vicar of Christ was only accused of piracy, murder, rape, sodomy and incest.

-Edward Gibbons

 

[Brennin]

Always liked this one
ON John XXIII:
‘The most scandalous charges were suppressed; the vicar of Christ was only accused of piracy, murder, rape, sodomy and incest.

-Edward Gibbons

LOL! Of course, I'm sure the RC apologists will hasten to point out that he was an "antipope" and that Angelo Roncalli is the only one worthy of that papal name.

 

[Catholic Christian]

No, he was a true hero, unlike many of your popes, who were more concerned with the simoniacal arts, hedonism, and strutting about like Oriental potentates.

"It is in vain that my enemies try to make me out an atheist. I believe in God. I am of the religion of Christ, not of the religion of the Popes. I do not admit any intermediary between God and man. Priests have merely trust themselves in, in order to make a trade of religion. They are the enemies of true religion, liberty, and progress; they are the original cause of our slavery and degradation, and in order to subjugate the souls of Italians, they have called in foreigners to enchain our bodies. The foreigners we have expelled, now we must expel those mitered and tonsured traitors who summoned them. The people must be taught that it is not enough to have a free country, but that they must learn to exercise the rights and perform the duties of free men. Duty! duty! that is the word. Our people must learn their duties to their families, their duties to their country, their duty to humanity"

--General Garibaldi

A hero to who? I'm an American, not an Italian. When it comes to generals who are heroes, I'm a George Patton man.

 

[Catholic Christian]

Always liked this one
ON John XXIII:
‘The most scandalous charges were suppressed; the vicar of Christ was only accused of piracy, murder, rape, sodomy and incest.

-Edward Gibbons

I always like this one:

"I would not believe the holy Gospels if it were not for the authority of the Holy Catholic Church"
- St. Augustine

 

[simonthezealot]

I always like this one:

"I would not believe the holy Gospels if it were not for the authority of the Holy Catholic Church"
- St. Augustine

Share with us the writings that this is from...If ya know?

 

[Catholic Christian]

Share with us the writings that this is from...If ya know?

I have requested the citation in a Catholic forum. I'll find out in a while