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The Preservation of the Holy Scriptures

tall73

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I understand your points, I spoke of the NT because it is far more diverse than the old. I am trying to do this in a concise manner.

The simplest statement would be that it is generally understood that no Christian Bible has an underlying monolithic manuscript. Hence, they are all eclectic.

Jack


Current Bible being published, yes, we can agree. However, the full manuscripts were used as Bibles for years. So each full manuscript would have been a Bible in itself.

I am not trying to be difficult by saying that . I just believe that it is more likely to find the original text in an actual manuscript than through an eclectic process. Now knowing which is the correct one, that is the problem. And for that reason scholars have to resort to applying principles in order to determine which readings are best, resulting in an eclectic text.
 
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Jack Koons

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Current Bible being published, yes, we can agree. However, the full manuscripts were used as Bibles for years. So each full manuscript would have been a Bible in itself.

I am not trying to be difficult by saying that . I just believe that it is more likely to find the original text in an actual manuscript than through an eclectic process. Now knowing which is the correct one, that is the problem. And for that reason scholars have to resort to applying principles in order to determine which readings are best, resulting in an eclectic text.

At this point, I am not trying to assemble the 'pieces' into a puzzle; I'm simply trying to indentify the pieces themselves. Again, I understand your points, I'm simply trying to establish an agreement that all Bibles after Wycliffe's; have been eclectic. That would be "piece 1".

Jack
 
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Don Maurer

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If you think the ASV is the word of God, conveys the word of God, or contains the word of God, you are missing the boat. God's word cannot be changed in different versions in the same language. Either none of them is the word of God and all of them together can only get you close, at best, to knowing exactly what God said to you in your own language, or one version is exactly what God said in your own language.

Do not assume that I know little about translations or textual criticism.
I am not trying to put you down, I assume your lack of understanding because I can see it. Have you ever studied Kione Greek or any language for that matter. Anyone studying languages like this will automatically know that there are not word for word parallels in languages.


I simply prefer to take the common sense simple logic child-like faith approach. Either you believe you have God's word in your own language given to you from God or you believe you are the tool of the Holy Ghost who brings you as close to the originals as you can possibly get and your own intellect is the standard rather than the word of God being the standard.
Extreme oversimplification above

My problem with this issue is that men set themselves up as intellectually superior to God, pretending God needs them to decipher his word into English. It's done, God did it, and He does not need you, the NASB, the NIV, Wescott and Hort, or any modern scholar to fix it for him. Sorry.Quite the emotional rant. So if anyone disagrees with you they disagree with God?

People like you will not listen to reason, you will not examine the unholy changes in modern versions, you will not examine the motives of their translators and editors, you will not acknowledge the hand of God in the history of the King James Bible. For this reason I will not dignify your pretense of intellectual superiority by engaging in a long argument which will go down rabbit trails that never end and always change because there is no end and no stability preventing change in all the modern versions which come out one after an other.

If you are a godly man like my mentor who was not a KJV only person, you will not pursue arguments against the King James Bible. If you are a godly man unlike my mentor, I don't know why you find it so important to insult me simply because I stand firm in simple common sense logical faith which is easily understood by any child.

Fine, conversation over, see you later.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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No malicious lies about the late Bruce Metzger (he died on February 13, 2007) are relevant to the quality of the work that he did. Even if a he had been an active member of the Church of Satan or a radicalized Sunni Muslim, his work stands on it own merits—and not upon anything else! The same applies to Erasmus, Westcott and Hort, Allen Wikgren, Johannes Karavidopoulos, Eugene Nida, Carlo Maria Martini, Kurt and Barbara Aland, …..

I am REALLY curious; did you think about what you typed before you clicked "Post"?

Jack
Yes. I have known these facts to be true for more than 18 years!
 
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PrincetonGuy

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This is a quote from Richard Dawkins. It seems he understand the Bible far better than you do.

Richard Dawkins is an atheist with little, if any, education in the Bible.

If Genesis isn't historical then Jesus' death is an absolute joke by God.

In what genre of literature is Genesis 1-11written? Is it an accurate account of historical events, is it a collection of legends or myths (legends spring up from actual historic events, myths do not), or perhaps a collection of epic tales? Up to about the middle of the 19th century, the Anglican Church, of which Darwin was a member, believed that the first eleven chapters of Genesis gave us an accurate account of historical events, the author being Moses. In 1853, however, Hupfeld published his work, Die Quellen Der Genesis, in which he set forth the Documentary Hypothesis, and his work was very favorably received. This hypothesis was, at that time, that Genesis was written by two different authors. In 1869, Nöldeke demonstrated the evidence that Genesis was written, not by two authors, but by three. These new understandings of Genesis opened the door for Genesis to be very seriously and laboriously studied by very many Old Testament scholars without fear of being too quickly accused of heresy.

Therefore, by the time that Darwin published his first edition of his On the Origin of Species in 1859, the door had already been opened in the minds of his critic for fresh interpretations of the first eleven chapters of Genesis, and Darwin’s views were well received by the Anglican Church. Moreover, the discovery of dinosaur bones in the first half of the 1800’s caused many people to begin to rethink their interpretation of the first eleven chapters of Genesis. Just the thought of dinosaurs aboard Noah’s Ark was a bit difficult for some people to swallow!

In Genesis 6-9, we read the narrative of Noah’s Ark. Is this narrative an accurate account of historical events, is it a collection of legends or myths, or is it perhaps a collection of epic tales? Let us begin with the first of these choices—is the narrative of Noah’s Ark an accurate account of historical events? According to a literal interpretation of the narrative, representatives of every “kind” of animals, clean and unclean, “went into the ark.” (Gen. 7:9, NASB, 1995).

A few facts regarding Noah’s Ark that must be considered in evaluating the literalness of the account in Gen. 6–8 are:

• There are today about 2,000,000 genetically distinct populations of animals living on the earth. If we assume a date of about 2,349 B.C. (Bishop Ussher’s date), microevolution reduces the number of “kinds” of animals that must have been aboard the ark (to account for the about 2,000,000 genetically distinct populations of animals living on the earth today) to a few hundred thousand “kinds.”

• The several thousands of “kinds” of animals, including the dinosaurs, mammoths, giant ground sloths, etc., which have become extinct must also be considered. Did they all become extinct before the flood? If not, they were, according to the account in Genesis, aboard the ark.

• The ark, as literally described in Genesis, was much too small because the amount of water that it would be capable of displacing would weigh less than the animals on board, thus making it impossible for the ark to float.

• The floor space on the ark was too small to hold any more than a tiny fraction of the cages that would be necessary to keep the animals in place (and from eating each other).

• The amount of food required for the animals would weigh at least nearly as much as the animals, and would require a vast amount of storage space.

• Many of the animals aboard the ark would have required specific FRESH fruits, vegetables, leaves, grass, bark, roots, etc., including fresh fruits that are produced only on MATURE plants. Therefore, these mature plants would necessarily have been kept and maintained aboard the ark, and subsequently planted in the ground after the flood.

• Most of the genetically discrete populations of fish (including many VERY LARGE fish) would have to be taken aboard the ark and kept in tanks of water that met their very specific water chemistry needs in order to survive.

• The weight of the water on the earth would have crushed to death any of the land plants that did not drown in the water.

• After 150 days when the water abated, there would be no vegetation on the earth for the herbivores to eat, and no meat for the carnivores to eat, therefore a vast amount of food would necessarily have been kept aboard the ark to sustain the animals AFTER the flood.

• The Animals could not be released all at once or in the same place because many of them would eat each other.

• The coming of the animals to Noah from all over the earth would have been a physical impossibility no less impossible than Santa Clause delivering presents to every boy and girl on the night before Christmas. The polar bears and penguins, not to mention all of the unique kinds of animals in Australia, would have posed more than a few special difficulties.

• After the flood, the animals could not be returned to their original habitat because all habitats would have been destroyed by the flood.

• Many of the necessary habitats would take 50 years or more to be reestablished and their reestablishment would have required the effort of many thousands of persons.

• Until all the necessary habitats could be reestablished, the animals requiring these habitats would have to be kept and cared for by Noah and his family.

• There was not enough water to cover the entire earth, and even if there was, where did it go after the flood?

• If the reported sightings of the Ark are factual, the Ark came to rest on a VERY high mountain on VERY rugged terrain from which the large majority of the animals would not have been able to descend.

Therefore, the narrative of Noah’s Ark cannot be a literal account of an historic event. Indescribably huge and very numerous miracles would have been necessary, and a literal interpretation of Genesis does not allow for these miracles because the whole point of the narrative is that through the natural, physical means of an ark built by Noah and his family, mankind and all the kinds of animals were saved from the floodwaters. Therefore, we are left with the following choices: a collection of sagas, legends, or myths—or a collection of epic tales. I realize that at this point, some of my readers believe that I am an incarnation of the devil, the anti-Christ, a heretic, or perhaps just a blind fool, but I believe that it is much more foolish to imagine that all of the necessary miracles are found in a literal interpretation of Genesis 6-9.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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If Genesis isn't historical then Jesus' death is an absolute joke by God.

There are, of course, many other factors that prove that Genesis 1-11 is a redacted work; and none of the pre-redaction copies have been preserved. Indeed, the Bible describes in Genesis 1-11 (and in several places) the earth as being a round, flat disk covered by a dome. This, of course, was the ancient Hebrew cosmology at the time that Genesis was composed. In dependence upon this cosmology, the Bible further describes a world-wide flood through which eight humans and hundreds of thousands of land animals were kept alive by a big boat while pretending that hundreds of thousands of kinds of marine life survived without so much as a lifejacket! Moreover, the Bible describes a world-wide flood through which eight humans and hundreds of thousands of land animals were kept alive by a big boat while pretending that the ecosystems necessary for the survival of the humans and animals after the flood remained in tact without so much as a single miracle. The Bible describes Nimrod and his people building a tower out of bricks held together by bitumen in the land of Shinar—a tower to be so tall that it would reach beyond the dome into heaven. God becomes so alarmed by this that He and unspecified other persons go down to the earth from heaven and make Nimrod’s people forget how to speak Hebrew but know how to speak languages that had hitherto not existed. The trouble was, of course, that each individual could now understand only one of these newly created languages. This was supposed to make building tall towers and doing grand things impossible when in fact it was not a significant hindrance. Why didn’t one of the persons that went down to the earth with God tell Him that the plan would not work and that in the future the tallest buildings would be built by men and women speaking a wide spectrum of languages but still finding ways to communicate with each other?

Personally, I find it more than a little unsettling that some people believe that God was not allowed to communicate with us using epic tales, sagas, myths and/or legends. If God was not allowed to communicate in the manner that He chose to, was He really God?
 
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tall73

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At this point, I am not trying to assemble the 'pieces' into a puzzle; I'm simply trying to indentify the pieces themselves. Again, I understand your points, I'm simply trying to establish an agreement that all Bibles after Wycliffe's; have been eclectic. That would be "piece 1".

Jack

Alright, continue.
 
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tall73

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There are, of course, many other factors that prove that Genesis 1-11 is a redacted work; and none of the pre-redaction copies have been preserved. Indeed, the Bible describes in Genesis 1-11 (and in several places) the earth as being a round, flat disk covered by a dome. This, of course, was the ancient Hebrew cosmology at the time that Genesis was composed. In dependence upon this cosmology, the Bible further describes a world-wide flood through which eight humans and hundreds of thousands of land animals were kept alive by a big boat while pretending that hundreds of thousands of kinds of marine life survived without so much as a lifejacket! Moreover, the Bible describes a world-wide flood through which eight humans and hundreds of thousands of land animals were kept alive by a big boat while pretending that the ecosystems necessary for the survival of the humans and animals after the flood remained in tact without so much as a single miracle. The Bible describes Nimrod and his people building a tower out of bricks held together by bitumen in the land of Shinar—a tower to be so tall that it would reach beyond the dome into heaven. God becomes so alarmed by this that He and unspecified other persons go down to the earth from heaven and make Nimrod’s people forget how to speak Hebrew but know how to speak languages that had hitherto not existed. The trouble was, of course, that each individual could now understand only one of these newly created languages. This was supposed to make building tall towers and doing grand things impossible when in fact it was not a significant hindrance. Why didn’t one of the persons that went down to the earth with God tell Him that the plan would not work and that in the future the tallest buildings would be built by men and women speaking a wide spectrum of languages but still finding ways to communicate with each other?

Personally, I find it more than a little unsettling that some people believe that God was not allowed to communicate with us using epic tales, sagas, myths and/or legends. If God was not allowed to communicate in the manner that He chose to, was He really God?

a. this is largely off topic. Feel free to start a thread on it, as it may make an interesting conversation.

b. The issue initially raised was that later authors took these events as factual in their discussions. Now you have said that this raises all kinds of questions as to the nature of inspiration. Again, that may be better addressed in another thread, but could tie into this one. Why not state your view of inspiration so that we can know the relation of this material to the topic at hand?
 
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PrincetonGuy

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I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt that you thought they had some value as an allegory. I guess instead you think they are just basically legends. Or to put it more bluntly, you think they are just stories that are not true.



Across the whole world. Which might make one wonder why if in fact it didn't happen.




Of course the lesson Peter was making WAS dependent on the historical accuracy of the account. He was saying God could and would destroy the whole world, despite the scoffers, and used as an example the fact that God had done so before--which he saw as factual. Peter's argument makes no sense if the story was just made up.

How much sense would Peter's argument make? "You scoffers, you think you won't be judged? What about that made up story of the flood that never happened. They were judged! "

No, that would not fly obviously. Peter did think it happened, and used it as an example of the coming judgment. The only reason to try to argue around that is that you don't believe it happened.




It is hardly just the "ultra-convervative" who think that Paul would be making a silly argument if he really thought there was no Adam to compare Christ to but did it anyway.

His argument makes no sense if he thought it all an "epic tale".



The remedy was for the problem that came about through the story referenced by Paul. He didn't consider it just an epic tale.

When I interpret the Bible, I begin with the facts and interpret the Bible accordingly. The facts regarding the genre of literature in which Genesis 1-11 is written, the dependence of Genesis 1-11 upon a radically incorrect cosmology, and the impossibility of the flood having occurred require that I interpret the Bible in a manner consistent with these facts. Should we instead start with a hand-me-down interpretation of the Bible and ignore all the facts that prove that the hand-me-down interpretation is severely incorrect? Should we ignore the facts simply because they require that we rethink the places in the rest of the Bible that refer to people and events found in Genesis 1-11?

The redactions in Genesis 1-11, 2 Corinthians, the Gospel According to John, Matthew 19:9, and many other places in the Bible prove that the KJO crowed is mistaken in their claim that the Bible has been preserved by God from the beginning and up to the present in the form of the KJV. These redactions prove that the KJO crowed is mistaken in their claim because none of the pre-redaction copies have been preserved.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Why not state your view of inspiration so that we can know the relation of this material to the topic at hand?

The topic at hand is NOT the inspiration of the Bible; the topic at hand is the preservation of the Scriptures. The redactions in Genesis 1-11, 2 Corinthians, the Gospel According to John, Matthew 19:9, and many other places in the Bible prove that the KJO crowed is mistaken in their claim that the Bible has been preserved by God from the beginning and up to the present in the form of the KJV. These redactions prove that the KJO crowed is mistaken in their claim because none of the pre-redaction copies have been preserved.
 
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tall73

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When I interpret the Bible, I begin with the facts and interpret the Bible accordingly. The facts regarding the genre of literature in which Genesis 1-11 is written, the dependence of Genesis 1-11 upon a radically incorrect cosmology, and the impossibility of the flood having occurred require that I interpret the Bible in a manner consistent with these facts. Should we instead start with a hand-me-down interpretation of the Bible and ignore all the facts that prove that the hand-me-down interpretation is severely incorrect? Should we ignore the facts simply because they require that we rethink the places in the rest of the Bible that refer to people and events found in Genesis 1-11?

The redactions in Genesis 1-11, 2 Corinthians, the Gospel According to John, Matthew 19:9, and many other places in the Bible prove that the KJO crowed is mistaken in their claim that the Bible has been preserved by God from the beginning and up to the present in the form of the KJV. These redactions prove that the KJO crowed is mistaken in their claim because none of the pre-redaction copies have been preserved.

The problem is that Peter was not working off your approach. He took it at face value.
 
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tall73

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The topic at hand is NOT the inspiration of the Bible; the topic at hand is the preservation of the Scriptures. The redactions in Genesis 1-11, 2 Corinthians, the Gospel According to John, Matthew 19:9, and many other places in the Bible prove that the KJO crowed is mistaken in their claim that the Bible has been preserved by God from the beginning and up to the present in the form of the KJV. These redactions prove that the KJO crowed is mistaken in their claim because none of the pre-redaction copies have been preserved.

Saying that the things in Genesis 1-11 didn't happen historically does not necessary prove redaction. So it seems you are talking past your point here. You state there is redaction. That fact was not accepted by all in the thread. In indicating there was redaction you have tried to argue from the implausibility of the accounts. Even if you think it is not historically possible for this to happen biblical authors such as Peter wrote from the basis of it being an historical fact. Otherwise there is no meaning to his warning to the scoffers based on God's earlier judgment in the flood. So there is no reason to think they approached it as simply a story, an epic tale, or any of the above. You may approach it that way. They didn't. Either way, trying to show that various things were legends/epic tales, etc. does not show redaction either. It simply raises the question of what genre it was, which you later mentioned. Even if you think that 1-11 are epic tales, you still have to show separately that they were the result of a redaction from multiple authors. Those are not the same argument.

You would be better simply focusing on the claim that there are two creation accounts to illustrate possible sources and let the debate be on those merits. If you want to argue redaction from the use of terminology, such as identifying an Elohim source, and a priestly source, etc. that may at least make more sense, though I doubt all would accept that either. If you want to spell out how the latter portion of II Corinthians is seen as another letter by some, you could spell out why. Those would be discussions on redaction. Describing why you think the flood did not happen does not prove redaction.

But keep in mind, this does have to do with inspiration if you start saying that Peter didn't know that it wasn't true, etc. because then you have God inspiring falsehoods.

You already spoke to this briefly in the case of Paul's use of Adam in Romans,

Since the story of the flood is an epic tale, it seems very likely that the rest of Genesis 1-11 is no more historical, and that Adam and Eve were not historical persons. Some ultraconservative Christians have objected that Adam must have been an historical person because Paul, in Romans 5:12-21, teaches the doctrine of original sin based upon the accounts in Genesis regarding Adam. Answers to this objection have, of course, been presented by many scholars, and these answers raise some very interesting and challenging questions regarding the inspiration of Paul’s writings—and, of course, the inspiration of the entire Bible.
 
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Jack Koons

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Tall,
Do you agree with the following?

Piece #2
“The Critical Text”
(Referring to the N/A text, and the UBS text.)
The critical text is an eclectic text compiled by a committee, using a set of rules to determine which readings, from a large number of manuscripts, with oftentimes many variants, are most likely to be closest to the original.

The rules used may be seen in the sources that follow:

Rules of Textual Criticism
Textual Criticism

Jack
 
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now faith

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Saying that the things in Genesis 1-11 didn't happen historically does not necessary prove redaction. So it seems you are talking past your point here. You state there is redaction. That fact was not accepted by all in the thread. In indicating there was redaction you have tried to argue from the implausibility of the accounts. Even if you think it is not historically possible for this to happen biblical authors such as Peter wrote from the basis of it being an historical fact. Otherwise there is no meaning to his warning to the scoffers based on God's earlier judgment in the flood. So there is no reason to think they approached it as simply a story, an epic tale, or any of the above. You may approach it that way. They didn't. Either way, trying to show that various things were legends/epic tales, etc. does not show redaction either. It simply raises the question of what genre it was, which you later mentioned. Even if you think that 1-11 are epic tales, you still have to show separately that they were the result of a redaction from multiple authors. Those are not the same argument.

You would be better simply focusing on the claim that there are two creation accounts to illustrate possible sources and let the debate be on those merits. If you want to argue redaction from the use of terminology, such as identifying an Elohim source, and a priestly source, etc. that may at least make more sense, though I doubt all would accept that either. If you want to spell out how the latter portion of II Corinthians is seen as another letter by some, you could spell out why. Those would be discussions on redaction. Describing why you think the flood did not happen does not prove redaction.

But keep in mind, this does have to do with inspiration if you start saying that Peter didn't know that it wasn't true, etc. because then you have God inspiring falsehoods.

You already spoke to this briefly in the case of Paul's use of Adam in Romans,

Amen
 
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now faith

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The topic at hand is NOT the inspiration of the Bible; the topic at hand is the preservation of the Scriptures. The redactions in Genesis 1-11, 2 Corinthians, the Gospel According to John, Matthew 19:9, and many other places in the Bible prove that the KJO crowed is mistaken in their claim that the Bible has been preserved by God from the beginning and up to the present in the form of the KJV. These redactions prove that the KJO crowed is mistaken in their claim because none of the pre-redaction copies have been preserved.

Well that is cafeteria Christianity,just pick a little of what you feel is true and what you do not comprehend debunk it.

I guess we need to toss out Romans and the origin of sin:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
 
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tall73

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now faith

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The first three videos in that series are good as well. I had thought of them earlier today when reading some of the info here.

He is a long study,you feel as if your sitting in a collage classroom.

His work on young earth is amazing.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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When I interpret the Bible, I begin with the facts and interpret the Bible accordingly. The facts regarding the genre of literature in which Genesis 1-11 is written, the dependence of Genesis 1-11 upon a radically incorrect cosmology, and the impossibility of the flood having occurred require that I interpret the Bible in a manner consistent with these facts. Should we instead start with a hand-me-down interpretation of the Bible and ignore all the facts that prove that the hand-me-down interpretation is severely incorrect? Should we ignore the facts simply because they require that we rethink the places in the rest of the Bible that refer to people and events found in Genesis 1-11?

The redactions in Genesis 1-11, 2 Corinthians, the Gospel According to John, Matthew 19:9, and many other places in the Bible prove that the KJO crowed is mistaken in their claim that the Bible has been preserved by God from the beginning and up to the present in the form of the KJV. These redactions prove that the KJO crowed is mistaken in their claim because none of the pre-redaction copies have been preserved.

The problem is that Peter was not working off your approach. He took it at face value.

There is no problem. In Peter’s day, the Christians still believed in the Ancient Hebrew cosmology in which the earth is flat and covered with a dome.* In all likelihood, Peter himself believed in the Ancient Hebrew cosmology in which the earth is flat and covered with a dome that separated the earth and the seas from a massive amount of water above the dome, and that below all of this was Sheol and the Great Deep.

Genesis 1:6. And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” (NRSV)

Therefore, the concept of God opening windows in the dome and all the fountains of the great deep bursting forth did not trouble him.

Genesis 7:11. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. (NRSV)

Do you believe, as Peter apparently did, that God opened windows in the dome and that all the fountains of the great deep burst forth causing a flood that covered even the highest mountains of the earth? Do you believe that God wants 21st century Christians to believe and teach this today and make us appear to the unbelievers as intellectually challenged baboons suffering from the late stages of dementia? I believe that God wants 21st century Christians to believe and teach the truth so that the Holy Spirit can convict sinners of the truth so that they might repent and believe in the gospel (Mark1:15).


*The NRSV correctly translates the Hebrew word רָקִיעַ (râqı̂ya‛) as “dome.” The evidence for the correctness of this translation is found in the use of this word in ancient Hebrew literature. Based upon this usage, the Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament by Brown, Driver, and Briggs published by Oxford University gives us the following meaning of it in Gen. 1:7, “the vault of heaven, or ‘firmament,’ regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting ‘waters’ above it.” (p. 956)
 
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