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The Preservation of the Holy Scriptures

FredVB

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This is quite right. When we have real basis for what to believe, we can speaking about it. But when we believe things because we like believing those things, we can only have a shallow belief with that at best. When there isn't real basis that any can know and be sure of, when others speak effectively against it, such will just quit participating, and will start with trying to convince others elsewhere.
 
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SaintJoeNow

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edited...this is becoming too repetitive, boring..4x4 sounds a lot like my beloved and much missed mentor who was not KJV only but held the King James Bible in the highest regard for obvious reasons. Maybe I'll pop back in if others who support the OP like myself are posting.
I'm still happy knowing I can trust God according to His word and nobody can tell me God didn't care enough to give me His word in English, I don't care how "scholarly" the approach they use in trying do discredit God's word. I see absolutely no value in believing God didn't care enough about what He said to mankind to keep His word pure and preserved, unchangeable in Earth as it is in Heaven.
 
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OzSpen

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Joe,

And you gave not a single example of what you are talking about from the biblical text so that I can check what the NT Greek states.

'Modern versions' as 'fraudulent imposters claiming to be Bibles' is your perspective. I urge you not to use such inflammatory language on this forum.

Oz
 
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kiwimac

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This is simply rubbish. Not only are you factually incorrect, you are seemingly quite happy to lie about newer English translations even after you've been shown that you are wrong.
 
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4x4toy

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It irks me when I look for a scripture and can't find the exact wording that I had seen in the KJV .. KJV should be the standard in English reference across the board .. It is the most useful IMO bridging the gap in not only young and old but denominations while doing an excellent job concerning the OP
 
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OzSpen

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It's not the 'most useful' because it is not the language of the people - especially with an Aussie accent.

However, surely you know of Google. If you search for 'the exact wording' that you remember, Google just might be able to help you find the exact verse. Just a thought.

Are you a KJV Only supporter?

 
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Goodbook

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God preserves His word.
There must be at least one bible version that is perfect isnt there?

The greeks had their septugint and then the new testament.
The ot in hebrew.
I reckon God would have shown the translators and scribes how careful they had to be with his precious Word when translating it. Imagine if someone missed one of the ten commandments.
And now its translated into tongues of every tribe and nation.

I dont doubt that theres versions floating round that are corrupt and questionable. But there must be some that are perfect and holy cos He is perfect and holy.
 
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OzSpen

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There is no perfect Bible translation because there were no perfect human beings who copied text onto papyri and codexes in centuries in the past. They had the same problem that we have today in copying documents. They made copyist errors (called variants) that are the equivalent of today's typographical errors. They copied wrong words (we know this by comparing manuscripts).

Then to get a Bible in contemporary English we have to rely on Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic grammars that are created by imperfect human beings. There is not one book or chapter in the NT that tells me how to parse nouns and verbs and give me meaning of words to tell me how to translate them. We depend for that grammatical teaching on people (linguistic scholars) who have gone before us.

That means there are lots of impediments before we arrive at a translation today. However, we are blessed and encouraged by the fact that there have been imperfect people down through the centuries who have copied MSS for us so that we can compare them to arrive at a basic text for the NT and OT.

If you want a perfect and holy Bible translation, I wish you all the best in trying to find one. I don't consider that such is possible. But we have reached a pretty good consensus on what is the best text for the OT and the NT in the original languages, but they are not perfect because of some of the impediments I mentioned above.

Oz
 
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DeaconDean

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In 1996, William Combs proves that the KJV that we have today, is not "perfect".

I cite:


http://www.dbts.edu/journals/1996_1/erasmus.pdf

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Goodbook

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I thought the scribes were very careful at copying down Gods word. The reason why theres manuscripts with lots of errors is cos they were so careful that if any had errors they got thrown out and not used.

I do proofreading. I know that the first draft is not perfect. It never will be. But when its published complete, its as perfect as it can be.

With Gods word I would think God wanted it as perfect as it could be so would totally prrserve what He was saying.

I dont think its a good idea for translators to take these mansucripts just cos they old and copy the ones full of errors. And call it the bible.
 
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OzSpen

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You have not responded to the content of what DeaconDean and I wrote. I suggest you become informed about the type of manuscripts that are available to translators today.

I recommend three books:
  1. Intermediate level: Norman L Geisler & William E Nix 1974. From God to Us: How we got our Bible. Chicago: Moody Press (a revised edition from 2012 is available).
  2. Advanced level: Bruce M Metzger 1992. The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, 3rd ed. New York/Oxford: Oxford University Press.
  3. Intermediate level: Bruce M Metzger 2001. The Bible in Translation: Ancient and English Versions. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Academic.
Translators do not copy the MSS 'full of errors. And call it the bible', as you state. They compare MSS to arrive at a final text that does not include the 'errors'. That's what they do to arrive at, say, the United Bible Societies Greek NT text.

There are certainly some issues in bibliology that you could pursue to arrive at a more careful understanding of biblical texts that lead to translation.

Oz
 
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4x4toy

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I was talking about when having conversations with others and I quote a verse and use another translation it's a little changed from my quote depending on what translation they have handy .. No I'm a KJV first and foremost , not only
 
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OzSpen

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I was talking about when having conversations with others and I quote a verse and use another translation it's a little changed from my quote depending on what translation they have handy .. No I'm a KJV first and foremost , not only

I attend a mid-week Bible study group in a house where there are about 4-5 different Bible translations used - KJV, CEV, NIV, ESV, NLT. The only time I find it distracting is when we are reading a passage around the group, one verse at a time. It is sometimes difficult to know when to start my ESV if the person before me is using the NLT. However, all of these translations (except KJV) are based on the same Greek text for the NT, so each is giving the meaning of the text in either formal equivalence (word for word) or dynamic equivalence (meaning for meaning) translations.

If you are KJV first and foremost, do you consider that the KJV is the BEST translation? Which version of the KJV are you using?

Oz
 
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DeaconDean

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Remember this, prior to the Messiah, "scribes" (paid copists) were accurate, quite expensive, well educated and could be afforded by the "well-to-do" of Hebrew society.

In NT era, most copying was done by "scribes" who worked in very poor conditions. Sometimes in very dim light. Not as well educated as their earlier counterparts. And for sometimes hours on end. It's not hard to imagine a monk or a scribe working as long as 18-20 hours a day just on one chapter. And, as the language changed over time, some words may or may not have the meaning changed. In King James era, a napkin was understood to be a diaper. In our time, a napkin is something you use to wipe your mouth with. And in Jesus' day, it was what He was buried in.

THere are a number of mistranslations, some Hebrew words could not be translated into the Greek.

But I agree that the message God wanted preserved, Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, born of a virgin, died a arose from the dead after three days, salvation in Jesus Christ alone, by grace alone, by faith alone, that has been preserved in all times, in most translations, most versions.

The only "pure" word of God, the original autographs by the Apostles themselves, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, disappeared sometime after the last Apostle died.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Goodbook

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I don't think they disappeared, after all, the Word is written on believers hearts. In those days you memorised scripture after you read it and was written down.

but I think...there will always be people who dispute this or that and ask 'did God really say?' ...if you know it, you know it. If you question it, I think it just shows you don't really know it and don't take it as God's Word.

Also the spirit bears witness, so we can know if it's God's Word or not. When it's talking about God preserving His word, I think he means both literally and spiritually.
Even when the ten commandments were written in stone by the Finger of God, moses took them down the mountain..and broke them! BUT, obviously, all the congregation there memorised them later. It was put into the ark of covenant. Now I don't know where it is now but I think it would still be where God is.
 
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BrokenWarrior

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This is so lame...

Watching my Brothers and Sisters arguing over such a simple matter...

Can we not all accept that the KJV is as close to the orginals as possible? It would be foolish to think otherwise...

KJV is copied off of Hebrew/Greek,Hebrew/Greek copied off Orginals.

Is that so hard to fathom?

/Thread
-Your Brother In Christ
 
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4x4toy

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How would I know what is the best translation ... Take your word ? I use other translations too , I'm not hung up on it for sure .. I do trust the KJV the most .. But take Prov 6:1-5 .. I cross checked with the NIV to see more clear , sometimes I get the web page that shows all of them .. OK , I got it , then back to the KJV .. Now I'm more sure (and but) still prefer the KJV version of that verse .. Like I stated before , the KJV guys knew they where hunted men persecuted and killed for it , I'm really thankful for those men and the price they paid .. That means something to me .. If any translation was prayed over and received God's help it was them .. I won't take the time to test all translations except I have seen some off the wall stuff in some, I spend too much time studying other stuff .. They (KJV) sure ain't afraid to mention Hell either , I like that .. Will newer translations continue to water down or follow agendas ? How would I know and why should I trust some new guys agenda ? I got the Gold just gotta dig it out , right? Do you get it ?
 
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tall73

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Like I stated before , the KJV guys knew they where hunted men persecuted and killed for it , I'm really thankful for those men and the price they paid .. That means something to me ..

Hold on there. Folks like Tyndale certainly suffered.

However, by the time we get to the translators themselves we see a different picture, with the Anglican church having now separated itself again.

Some of the translators of the KJV who you are referring to were on the other side of that persecution. The head of the project, Richard Bancroft was known to be very harsh towards puritan believers who rejected the notion of being directed by the Anglican church, and having bishops over the local clergy. He was put in charge of investigating them under Archbishop Whitgift and some of them were dismissed from their ministry, some were jailed, and some were put to death for their teachings.

And when he became Archbishop he continued this course. Some of the other translators similarly persecuted those who wished to be independent of the Anglican state church.
 
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tall73

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They (KJV) sure ain't afraid to mention Hell either , I like that ..

The KJV renders several different words as hell and these distinctions can be important. The newer versions try to render these distinctions.
 
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