The pre-tribulation lie!

[kenneth558]

I have translated many books, and so Greek and Hebrew are not new to me at all... and I could debate till the cows come home...

murjahel, as much as this discussion was out of place, I do appreciate what you've shared. I haven't yet studied what you've said, but I intend to. Up until now, I had been an ex-pretribber because παρουσιαν is when we get raptured, and that is the second coming - not a near miss. But you have me thinking. In the meantime, vanilla8 was crying out (politely) for prophetic ministry since yesterday morning. I just hope one of the prophets PM'd her. There might be several of us attracted to this thread because we need a prophetic word given to us. I count myself in that number, I just didn't know if all you prophets keep that in mind as you deliver the fire in your own bones....

 

[Just Me Garry]

It does not matter to me but that I am ready when he calls my name. I want to be about the Master's buisness-- and I sure do fail a lot in that area.

Later folks,
Garry

 

[knownbeforetime]

There is a reason I believe in YEC. It is because Evolution is a loveless, deadly philosophy. I also have scripture to say that creation only took a week. I have often said that I would cease to be Christian if evolution were proven beyond all doubt (which isn't likely to happen).

Now, I'm not willing to say that for the pre-trib rapture but I DO have a reason for believing in it. It is because I do not believe a loving God would put his bride through such a terrible thing as the tribulation.

John 17: 20-24 says, "I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world."

Christ wants us to be with him where he is. We are his bride. If you were a man about to be married and you knew your wife would have to go through many perils to get to your wedding, would you help her or would you say "she needs to prove herself first". I think Christ would be the one ordering a helicoptor to rescue the bride.

 

[daughterofzion]

How is this pre-trib?



The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age


3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The Great Tribulation


15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The Coming of the Son of Man


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:3-29

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Mod Hat
​

The subject matter on this thread is regarding Biblical prophesy and is moved here from the Prophetic Ministry (not Biblical prophesy) forum.​

 

[Luke950]

What does anyone think about the two witnesses being Enoch and Elijah, who have already been "raptured"? I am not insisting this is so...

 

[HuntingMan]

You had me at hello

but of course, Im pre-wrath based on the very passages you quote.

Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah and as Sodom.
In those cases the elect were removed from danger and immediately wrath started to pour out.

i believe we will be saved from Gods wrath, not from tribulation as is proven with the history of the church to date.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Part two

The only sequence that stands Biblically with all the aforementioned verses is:



1-6 trumpets released (Revelation 8:7-9:21)as the two witnesses Prophesy

(Revelation11:3-13), the Antichrist makes war against the two witnesses and kills them (Revelation11:7) and avenges the Bride of Christ (Revelation12:17:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.) enforcing his mark and worship. The 7th trumpet is sounded and Christ returns destroying the Antichrist (2Thessalonians2:8: 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.) raising the dead and those left Caught up in the air (1Corinthians15:51-52:Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.) , 1Thessalonians 4:16-17: 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord., Daniel 12:1-2: 1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.) before the seven vials of God’s wrath are poured out upon the unbelieving world (Revelation16:1-17)



The belief that Christ will rapture His church then come again later to destroy the Antichrist; fails completely in light of all the contrary scripture.



Some pre-tribulation theorists suggest that the two witnesses will speak to the 144,000 Jewish virgins, after the Christian church is raptured.



Others confuse the 1000 year millennial reign, supposing Christ will destroy the antichrist then. This is not scripturally supported.



Many people have been deceived through following popular beliefs or subtle persuasion.



This revelation is not necessary for salvation neither need it be the cause of denominational dissension. If delivered with love will be extremely beneficial in spiritually preparing the Christian church for the coming woes. If neglected it could prove very much on the contrary. For example, if someone warned you of a coming tidal wave but said “don’t worry a helicopter will pick you up before it hits”, you would react differently to them saying “a tidal wave is coming but the helicopter won’t be here till after the wave hits”. You would go and prepare yourselves spiritually.





Please respond with your comments!

 

[HuntingMan]

What does anyone think about the two witnesses being Enoch and Elijah,

I think if they were enoch and elijah, then it would have been foretold.
John was said to be Elijah, but wasnt him in actuality, but only a form of the prophet Elijah. Likened unto him.

I dont think these two will be any prophet from before, personally.

 

[HuntingMan]

Now, I'm not willing to say that for the pre-trib rapture but I DO have a reason for believing in it. It is because I do not believe a loving God would put his bride through such a terrible thing as the tribulation.

Methinks you ought to look at the horrible things His bride has already been through, and at the hands of even thier own brethren.

Tell these thoughts to christians who live in China and in the Middle east.
He has not promised that His bride would not face terrible tribulation. In fact, the very opposite.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(Mat 24:21-22 KJV)

the 'elect' will be there friend.
Those days, thankfully will be shortened for our sakes.

We will be saved from Gods wrath when He comes with His holy ones and gathers us from the corners of the earth.

 

[knownbeforetime]

Methinks you ought to look at the horrible things His bride has already been through, and at the hands of even thier own brethren.

Tell these thoughts to christians who live in China and in the Middle east.
He has not promised that His bride would not face terrible tribulation. In fact, the very opposite.

the 'elect' will be there friend.
Those days, thankfully will be shortened for our sakes.

We will be saved from Gods wrath when He comes with His holy ones and gathers us from the corners of the earth.

But the tribulation will be so much more terrible than past persecution. Read Revelation! That is all in a seven year period!

Besdes, why do you think elect = church?

 

[Jesusmyfriend]

.

 

[HuntingMan]

Besdes, why do you think elect = church?

Grab a concordance and see how 'elect' is used in the NT.
"Elect" is us...those who follow Christ.

 

[knownbeforetime]

Grab a concordance and see how 'elect' is used in the NT.
"Elect" is us...those who follow Christ.

I always thought Jesus was talking about Israel. The telling point is that Jesus tells His disciples in Matthew 24 to pray that their flight not be one the Sabbath. Who would be worried about running on the Sabbath? Jews.

 

[HuntingMan]

I always thought Jesus was talking about Israel. The telling point is that Jesus tells His disciples in Matthew 24 to pray that their flight not be one the Sabbath. Who would be worried about running on the Sabbath? Jews.

Well ask yourself this
What is this great tribulation that will never be again?

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(Mat 24:21 KJV)

Some have hypothesized that this meant when the Romans sacked Jerusalem.
But the text says this tribulation will be the worst ever and none shall ever be like this again.
Jerusalem was sacked but it was hardly as bad as what those in the end times will face.
If this sacking of Jersalem was this great tribulation, then the 'day of the Lord' (rapture) has already occured 1900 years ago (which we can show is not the case)

Obviously He is refering to Isreal in part as He mentions those in Judaea (which is pointless to me here in the US).
His direct audience there were Jews, we can conclude that Jewish believers would want to follow His instruction and flee, but the unbelieving Jews that would be there would most likely try to interfere as they dont permit men to travel more than 2000 cubits on the sabbath.

Judging how the unbelieving Jews of old treated Jewish converts, who knows what they would try to do to those Jewish christians who are alive and do try to flee much more than this 2000 cubits on that day?

 

[ellieberrie]

I agree with the poster~(my opinion of course, we all get our ow, thats how God made us, free will and all you know), I have family members who believe in this THEORY, and one of them made the statement that this makes sence to her becouse becouse her God would not make her go through a time were she would have to watch her children die, becouse she`d have to chose God (and so "they" would kill her children (I hope that made sence), But isn`t that what the bible say`s? Were going to have to chose. And my BIGGEST reason for not excepting this theory is it say`s that HE will shorten the time to 5 1/2 months for our sake! An why shoulden`t we all (saved and sinners alike) go through this? I mean what better way for me to honor HIM, then to give my life to defend him! And one more point, God watched HIS Son die for OUR sin`s! Are we more special than HE? HE proved how much HE loved us, shoulden`t we be expected to do the same for HIM? HE gave me HIS life for me, I`d joyfully sacrifice mine for HIM and HIS name!~Sorry if this sounds dumb and is unsciptured, but I just really believe in this~God bless

 

[DevotiontoBible]

The early church has always held a pre-trib view. It wasn't until recently that a post trib view was developed. You always see the first cent church looking for Chirst to return any moment...not for the Anti-Christ to appear at any moment.

 

[Lynn73]

I believe that the church will be raptured and will not go through the tribulation. I have listened to all sided of the arguement, and I daresay that I have as much chance of persuading you that the rapture is pre-trib, as you have of presuading me that it is post-trib. It really is a hot-potato and, with respect, I'm not sure that it should be debated on this forum and not on eschatology.

I agree with this. There's absolutley no reason for the bride of Christ which hasn't rejected Him to be put through the tribulation. The tribulation is for punishment of the wicked on earth, not to abuse the church, the bride of Christ.

Re 3:10 - Show Context Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the houroftemptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.



There are other clues as well. In Revelation during the letters to the churches each one ends with "let he who has an ear hear what the Spirt saith unto the churches" or something like that. Then during the rest of Revelation you hear nothing about the church at all but we do get the phrase "he who hath and ear let him hear." The church isn't mentioned because the church is gone. There will be tribulation believers of course but they aren't the church but are the "gleanings" of the harvest.

I haven't read the whole thread so my apologies if anyone has already said the same thing.

 

[HuntingMan]

The early church has always held a pre-trib view. It wasn't until recently that a post trib view was developed. You always see the first cent church looking for Chirst to return any moment...not for the Anti-Christ to appear at any moment.

ah ah.
You dont get to make this assertion without some evidence.

From my studies it has been the exact opposite, that PRE-trib is a new idea.

Do you have anything to back what you claim?

I think the OP and the subsequent post laid out his evidence very convincingly.

 

[Goltzy]

There is a reason I believe in YEC. It is because Evolution is a loveless, deadly philosophy. I also have scripture to say that creation only took a week. I have often said that I would cease to be Christian if evolution were proven beyond all doubt (which isn't likely to happen).

Oh, how I agree with you here. Evolultion is just another way of taking God out of the equation, nothing more.

Now, I'm not willing to say that for the pre-trib rapture but I DO have a reason for believing in it. It is because I do not believe a loving God would put his bride through such a terrible thing as the tribulation.

Can you just stay open about the idea? I used to believe in pretrib, and what turned me around was my tireless research for the truth. Dont base this on what you believe God would do. Dont base this on any kind of emotion you may have about the subject. Only base your belief on what scripture says, what God says.
I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you're wrong in your belief, as many others will. But what I'll do is encourage you to research this issue more. If you have ANY questions, I'd love to answer any. PM if you like. I love talking about this stuff.

Christ wants us to be with him where he is. We are his bride. If you were a man about to be married and you knew your wife would have to go through many perils to get to your wedding, would you help her or would you say "she needs to prove herself first". I think Christ would be the one ordering a helicoptor to rescue the bride.

What about the apostles? Where was the helicoptor for them? Why didnt God come down to rescue them before they were killed for their faith? Why hasnt He come down throughout the ages to save us from persecution at the hands of evil men?
Because losing our life for Christ is the greatest honor to Jesus Christ. God would rather us give up our lives for Him, as He did for us, than wisk us away from harm and danger. A martyr makes a far bigger statement for God than someone who is wisked away.

Matthew 16:24-25 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
http://www.voice-of-the-martyr.com/
If you want to see the great significance of being a martyr for your faith, go here.

Many christians do have to prove it to God that they are worthy of heaven. These generations of chrisitians now living in earth are lazy and spolied. We live, relatively, in peace with the world around us. We've become fat and happy, and blind to the enemies attacks on us.
Our christianity needs to be tested, because so many of us are far from good enough to enter heaven without first dying. What righteous people in the bible ever entered heaven without dying? Elijah, Enoch, and Jesus. Umm, I dont know about you, but I'm no where near as faithful as they men were. Wish I was but unfortunately I am not.
So, if these righteous men were the only ones raptured to heaven, what makes you think that the whole church will be taken away before the final years on earth?

 

[Goltzy]

ah ah.
You dont get to make this assertion without some evidence.

From my studies it has been the exact opposite, that PRE-trib is a new idea.

Do you have anything to back what you claim?

I think the OP and the subsequent post laid out his evidence very convincingly.

I, too, would like to see your evidence. I've found Pretrib to be a new theory that was not prevalent in the early church.