The pre-tribulation lie!

[Highland Watchman]

We are saved by grace, by the love and mercy of Jesus... and if I were wrong, and the rapture that I prepare for does not happen pretrib, then the preparation for it will help me be ready for the trib that I did not expect to have to go through... and those who believe 'mid or post trib... then hopefully they will still be preparing to be ready to see Jesus, and not just gathering bullets and automatic rifles for a war...

The Lord does not want us preparing to kill people... WE are to be winning converts to a loving Jesus... and when judgment falls on this world, it will be Jesus Who will unseal the seven seals, dispatch from heaven ones to sound trumpet judgments, and pour out bowls of wrath...

The ones who so violently want to make pre-tribbers to appear as heretics, are those who are militant and militia oriented... That 'send=he=pre-tribbers=to=hell" doctrine is evil... and should be rebuked here on the prophet's board... and so I will here ... do it...

Take that 'I'm the only one going to heaven' doctrine and go debate this kind of topic elsewhere... ! I am a pre=tribber and can substantiate my stand with many Scriptures... I do not twist the Scriptures to validate a desire to hold weapons designed to kill.... I do not seek a following to get some to think I am one of the two witnesses like some do... They need to look beyond the 'blanket statements' of their beliefs, and search the Word of God to see if it truly says what their leaders told them it says... for it does not!!!

Whoa, aren't there a few "blanket statements" here, like that all non-pretribbers are a bunch of militant militia? While I agree that immediate judgment should not be called down on the pretribbers, as some tend to do, the other side of the coin is equally evil, and equally needs to be rebuked, as with the sin of pride and arrogance.

I, for one, am neither militant, nor am I a member of any militia, save the one that longs for the return of Christ. I do not "twist scripture to validate a desire to hold weapons designed to kill", but I also do not twist scripture to place myself above my neighbors, or to make an excuse for why my life should be easy and without trials.

And I do not seek to gather a following, or to be one of the two witnesses. If it so happens that I am used as a witness for Christ, and it means my death, then I can praise God for this. But I will do as the early church did. I will not deny my LORD for the sake of my own comfort.

 

[Imagsusman]

Whoa, aren't there a few "blanket statements" here, like that all non-pretribbers are a bunch of militant militia? While I agree that immediate judgment should not be called down on the pretribbers, as some tend to do, the other side of the coin is equally evil, and equally needs to be rebuked, as with the sin of pride and arrogance.

I, for one, am neither militant, nor am I a member of any militia, save the one that longs for the return of Christ. I do not "twist scripture to validate a desire to hold weapons designed to kill", but I also do not twist scripture to place myself above my neighbors, or to make an excuse for why my life should be easy and without trials.

And I do not seek to gather a following, or to be one of the two witnesses. If it so happens that I am used as a witness for Christ, and it means my death, then I can praise God for this. But I will do as the early church did. I will not deny my LORD for the sake of my own comfort.

Highland if you were really folowing the discussion here over the past few weeks you would know what hes refering to...The pretribbers were attacked by one who is militant...His website proved this and has now convieniently dissapeared...Firstsrikeforce and Zionenvoy are militant christians...I proved that by quoting from their website..Hes refering directly to them because of the FALSE PROPHESYING etc agaisnt us..Heres some quotes from Zionenvoys and Firststrikeforce's site...

We denounce the "Pre-Tribulational Rapture" Doctrine as heresy. There are many genuine Christians believing it, and they do so to the shame of Christ. There is no Scriptural support for such a doctrine. It goes against a clear and honest reading of Revelation. It defies the suffering of the tens of millions of Christians who have been killed even in this last century. It is based on cowardice. Many Christians are set up to denounce the Two Witnesses and accept the Anti-Christ through this exact kind of wicked doctrine. article can be seen here :http://zionknights.aburningflame.org/OrderBeliefs.html

Heres another from Zionenvoy:

We believe in the higher spiritual gifts and every member of the Order is blessed with the role of Prophet, as well as other talents and roles.

We believe that the Church is our jurisdiction, and we believe the Lord has raised us up as Judges.

The bible says:
Hebrews 10:30 says otherwise;

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Hers another quote from Zionenvoys site:

We believe that though we might die as Christian Martyrs that we might be called to fight, just as it was with the Prophets of Old.

We believe that we must do all that we can to protect all innocent lives from dying. But, we also understand that our war is not a carnal one, but a spiritual one -- even if we must use carnal weapons

The bible says:
Heres James speaks also:

12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Zionenvboys site:

We believe that Marxism and modern Leftism are heretical branch offs of Christianity just as Islamism is. Therefore, they are not outside our jurisdiction nor just everyday evil, but they are Anti-Christ.

We believe that we must fight by every means possible and good to slow the destruction of the world by the powers of the Anti-Christ, but we also believe that whether we win or lose we are victorious.

 

[Highland Watchman]

Thank you for your response.

But I still don't see how these words refer to the rapture only. Especially in the 1 Thes 5:3 passage (which, the word is ekfugwsin, not ekphugein )where it is a double negation (which means that it is emphatic), and is describing the eschatalogical day of the LORD, and doesn't describe any escape or rapture of any kind within its context. On the contrary, it is more discussing that the wicked WILL NOT escape the judgment of God, despite their declarations of peace. (kind of reminds me of Jeremiah's ministry...)

Harpadzo



This word means ‘to be caught away by force out of harm’s way."

It is used to refer to the rapture only.

I Thessalonians 4:17

"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Ekphugein



This word means ‘to escape clean away from a dreaded person, place, or thing." It too is used to refer to the rapture only. It is used to refer to some who will not be raptured to escape.



I Thessalonians 5:3

"When they shall say peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh uponthem, as travail upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape."



Hebrews 2:3

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?"

Luke 21:36

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."



*************

The Bible tells us to "comfort one another with these words..." (I Thess. 4:18) We should comfort the bereaved with words of the coming of Jesus. We should comfort the poor with words of Jesus’ coming. We should comfort the sick and dying with words about the return of the Lord. and we should comfort the troubled and persecuted with the words of hope.....



The return of Jesus should give hope to all saints. If you are not encouraged with these words of the hope of His coming, then there is something wrong spiritually with your beliefs, or your spiritual condition. Examine yourself, get things right with God... until words of the rapture and second coming give you comfort, as they should.



[/font]

And I do have comfort when I think upon the second coming, and all that it will bring. And if you knew me, you would know that I do comfort the afflicted, the poor, the persecuted, and the frustrated with the words and hope of Jesus' second coming, after which all things will be made new and this suffering will be ended in this time. But at the same time, I would be lying if I also did not afflict the comfortable and remind them of God's holiness and goodness. For as I look in Revelation, I do not only see the comforting messages to the faithful church, I also see the line being drawn in the sand before the unfaithful church. Ultimately, Jesus wins in the end. We can hope for that. The question to us is, which side of the line to we stand upon. Are we the sheep or the goats, the wheat or the tares, the righteous or the wicked, children of the light or children of the darkness? To those who choose Christ, there will be hard times, and they will get worse before they get better. But the side of Christ is the side of victory. To those who do not choose Christ, yeah... life may be easy right now, but ultimately, they will have to answer to God for the way that they lived.

My dear brother, we are not too much different in our passion, you and I. And either which way, I truly do wish you the best, and that in your life, Jesus would reveal himself through you more and more, just as is the prayer that I have for all of the saints. I pray that lives would be transformed through your ministry, so as when people look upon you, they will say "here is a man of God". Be encouraged, maranatha.

 

[Highland Watchman]

Highland if you were really folowing the discussion here over the past few weeks you would know what hes refering to...The pretribbers were attacked by one who is militant...His website proved this and has now convieniently dissapeared...Firstsrikeforce and Zionenvoy are militant christians...I proved that by quoting from their website..Hes refering directly to them because of the FALSE PROPHESYING etc agaisnt us..Heres some quotes from Zionenvoys and Firststrikeforce's site...

Thank you, brother, for pointing that out. I apologize for my reaction that you caught (and sorry, murjahel if in what I have said, I have in any way done the same thing as these others have, and also for misjudging your remarks ). If anything, I have faced a lot of pretribbers attacking me for my different interpretation, and I kind of get on the defensive whenever I am generalized to be a scoffer, mocker, or heretic like that, especially since eschatology is one of those subjects that is a hot one for debate, and I do not see myself as any of these things...

I was not aware of the previous discussion, as I just came back to CF after a rather long hiaitus for school, and I discovered the Prophetic ministry forums about a week ago, I think. And even then, I have been pretty sporadic on here. I was not aware of the stuff on those two guys' sites, and I am not like that. As I said, I am not militant, and I am the last guy who would want to gather a following, except that the following be coming after me only as I go after the LORD.

Cheers, and shallom.

 

[murjahel]

It is fine... we can have differences of opinion, and have differences in understanding... If our hearts are right with the Lord, whenever He comes we can go and be with Him.

Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib.... or as some call it 'pan trib' for it will all 'pan out'...

I have strong beliefs, and feel I have researched and studied them fully. There is little that could be thrown my way, that I have not encountered previously.

I have translated many books, and so Greek and Hebrew are not new to me at all... and I could debate till the cows come home...

Yet, this board is not really the forum that is meant for this discussion... It only came up here, when the militant ones wanted to attack me for something, and gave it a shot...

I know that there are many non-militant ones who are mid and post trib, and am glad you are in the more 'evangelical, non murderous' group... LOL

God bless you, and hope we not only disagree from time to time, but also can fellowship...

When the Lord calls us home, I do plan to say 'I told you so'... so be prepared to forgive me.... LOL

I am sure we have many things to agree upon, and can look forward to those discussions... I am sorry that you misunderstood my comments to think I was referring to you then...

 

[Imagsusman]

This type of debate should be taken to the eschatology board...Right LOU? ..By the way how are ya ?

 

[L0U]

But I will do as the early church did. I will not deny my LORD for the sake of my own comfort.

Praise the Lord!

Many in the early church stood guard against the advesary of our souls. They knew one simple fact that the apostles taught both in oral and written form that it would be false Christ's and false prophets and teachers who would be the instigaters of the apostacy. Even Jesus had said this on Olivet. Such an apostacy would prevail when somehow, in some way because of iniquity our Christian 'agape' would grow cold.(Matthew 24:12)



The Didache (Teaching) of the Twelve Apostles (50-120 AD) also reflects the closeness to which God's Word was held:

"Watchfulness; the Coming of the Lord.

Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning."

​

Notice the allusions to both the teachings of Jesus and Paul.




In still clearer light, even Jerome gave this warning:

"Yet it behoves us to know that the enemy is wont to counterfeit this salutary advent of Christ with cunning fraud in order to deceive the faithful, and in the place of the Son of Man, Who is looked for as coming in the majesty of His Father, to prepare the Son of Perdition with prodigies and lying signs, that instead of Christ he may introduce Antichrist into the world; of whom the Lord Himself warned the Jews beforehand in the Gospels, "Because I am come in My Father's Name, and ye received Me not, another will come in his own name, and him ye will receive."


​

The early church is full of such warning. It would be adventageous for everybody to view the history of the church and the things that were handed down through the word of mouth by the apostles.




Gundry has rightly written:

"The antiquity of a view ways in its favor, especially when that antiquity reaches back to the apostolic age. For those who received their doctrine first hand from the apostles and from those who heard them stood in a better position to judge what was apostolic doctrine than we who are many centuries removed."


​

I encourage everyone to study the early church history before the formation of Roman Catholicism.

 

[L0U]

This type of debate should be taken to the eschatology board...Right LOU? ..By the way how are ya ?

Sorry. What can I say? I'm new here. I just found the eschatology board; thanks.

I'm doing just fine, thanks for your consern brother.

 

[Imagsusman]

Sorry. What can I say? I'm new here. I just found the eschatology board; thanks.

I'm doing just fine, thanks for your consern brother.

Long time no see...Hows the rod?

 

[L0U]

Long time no see...Hows the rod?

Still collecting dust.

But God's Word isn't.................

 

[Imagsusman]

Still collecting dust.

But God's Word isn't.................

For God gave his only begotten Son that whosoever would be right about the pre-mid, or post tribulation rapture would be saved....Lou 3:16 hehehe

 

[L0U]

pre-mid and post rapture scriptures

No such animals. Scriptures teach one rapture.

 

[L0U]

L0U WHO IS STILL DEBATING THE SAME THINGS AS 2 YEARS AGO

At least I'm saying the same things I said 4 years ago.
Now, where's that Arcade at?

 

[Imagsusman]

[/b][/i][/size]

At least I'm saying the same things I said 4 years ago.

hahaha...truth!!...But how can one person stay wrong for so long and not wake up....HAHAHAHA

 

[L0U]

hahaha...truth!!...But how can one person stay wrong for so long and not wake up....HAHAHAHA

Well, seeing that he's ignoring me, why don't you ask him. When you find out let me know!

 

[Imagsusman]

Well, seeing that he's ignoring me, why don't you ask him. When you find out let me know!

Context context context now LOU...

Originally Posted by: L0U

At least I'm saying the same things I said 4 years ago.

hahaha...truth!!...But how can one person stay wrong for so long and not wake up....HAHAHAHA

lol

 

[L0U]

This is my fifteenth post so in the next post, I should be able to post links to my car. At least what's finished of it.

 

[L0U]

Here ya go:

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/showfull.php?photo=1402

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/showfull.php?photo=1401

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/showfull.php?photo=1399

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/showfull.php?photo=1398

 

[Imagsusman]

well my car has seats and stuff.....BTW we might want to get back to topics, they kinda enforce that stuff round here...lol..we got off there for a bit..

 

[L0U]

I was just reading about those two guy's who you and Murjahel were having trouble with a few weeks ago.

We believe that the Church is our jurisdiction, and we believe the Lord has raised us up as Judges.

We believe that we must do all that we can to protect all innocent lives from dying. But, we also understand that our war is not a carnal one, but a spiritual one -- even if we must use carnal weapons

Wow, sounds like Islamic Jihad to me.
Were you at their website, that link to it no longer works.