LDS The Potential for Apostasy in the LDS Church.

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

So this isn't an argument that the LDS Church has gone into Apostasy (though I think that argument could be made) rather it is an argument that the LDS Church can potentially go into Apostasy.

I would base this simply on the fact that if it happened once before, it can happen again. Typical arguments for the great Apostasy by Mormons ascribe a lack of faith and the entering of corruption into the Church of the first few centuries. This is done so as to save God's reputation. It is not the fault of God but of men that the original Church fell into Apostasy and when there was no more faithful or the Apostles failed to appoint credentialed successors there was in effect no Church. The Church rests in the hands of it's leadership, if the twelve or the seventy should die without appointing successors within the LDS there would be no means of passing on priesthood authority and directly as a result they would have entered Apostasy.

Now if the LDS Church represents a restored Gospel and not something fundamentally new this presents a problem to me since the LDS is essentially the same institution of the first century. That is LDS believe the temple rites and their teachings come from Christ and have been restored to us in the latter days. Now if the LDS is in essence the same Church in continuation from the Apostle John it's function is theoretically the same. The control and responsibility of the Church does not lie in God's hands but in the hands of men whom bare responsibility for it.

This means there is no special guarantee to the current LDS institution of them being protected anymore than the Church Christ originally founded (which became corrupted) was. If there is a new protective status then one would have to wonder why God let it happen in the first place or if the LDS Church is something fundamentally other than that which Christ himself instituted. If the Church Christ instituted among men could fall it follows that the LDS Church (which is the same Church Christ established) among men could also potentially fall victim to the gates of Hades.

I would conclude from this there is a possibility of Apostasy happening within the LDS Church if certain conditions are met. Do LDS adhere to the revelation of Joseph Smith faithfully? Do LDS preserve their leadership? If the answer is no then there is apostasy and the fault lies at the hands of LDS and not their Heavenly Father per LDS understanding.

 

[Rescued One]

So this isn't an argument that the LDS Church has gone into Apostasy (though I think that argument could be made) rather it is an argument that the LDS Church can potentially go into Apostasy...

Here's what they teach:
The Church of Jesus Christ Will Never Be Destroyed

• What is the mission of the Church?

Since its restoration in 1830, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has grown rapidly in membership. There are members in nearly every country in the world. The Church will continue to grow. As Christ said, “This Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations” (Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:31). The Church will never again be taken from the earth. Its mission is to take the truth to every person. Thousands of years ago, the Lord said He would “set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, … and it shall stand for ever” (Daniel 2:44).
Chapter 17: The Church of Jesus Christ Today

D&C 135
3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.

History of the Church, Volume 6:
President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. II Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.

God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me. They have got wonderful things in the land of Ham. I think the grand jury have strained at a gnat and swallowed the camel.
(pages 408-409)

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Here's what they teach:
The Church of Jesus Christ Will Never Be Destroyed

• What is the mission of the Church?

Since its restoration in 1830, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has grown rapidly in membership. There are members in nearly every country in the world. The Church will continue to grow. As Christ said, “This Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations” (Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:31). The Church will never again be taken from the earth. Its mission is to take the truth to every person. Thousands of years ago, the Lord said He would “set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, … and it shall stand for ever” (Daniel 2:44).
Chapter 17: The Church of Jesus Christ Today

D&C 135
3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.

History of the Church, Volume 6:
President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. II Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.

God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me. They have got wonderful things in the land of Ham. I think the grand jury have strained at a gnat and swallowed the camel.
(pages 408-409)

Seems to me like Special pleading. The Apostles heard Christ say that the Church would not fall to the gates of Hades and yet their work and ministry fell apart, being corrupted to such a degree that not even God wanted to save the original historic community. The latter day saint could argue that the Church was preserved and didn't fall since John was still alive and able to transfer the keys yet if that follows then we can harmonise what the LDS manual says with the idea that the LDS could fall into apostasy and John would preserve the Church still allowing for him to restore it at a latter date.

Since God within the LDS has shown his willingness to give complete control of the viability of the community to the community itself (a hands off sort of approach) and the LDS claim to not be a new Church but a restored Church they should not imagine themselves immune anymore than the early Church imagined themselves protected. I dare say that would constitute the sin of Pride.

 

[withwonderingawe]

First off there is indeed individual apostasy, people being led astray or coming out in open rebellion.

Second the Church to an extent already is in apostasy in that we don't live the Law of Consecration which is the higher law.

Third this is the dispensation of the fullness of times which will usher in the millennial reign of Christ. The next apostasy isn't prophecies until the end of that time period.

Fourth the way Lord set up the order of the priesthood short of a bomb dropping on the middle of their weekly meeting there will always be leadership.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

First off there is indeed individual apostasy, people being led astray or coming out in open rebellion.

Second the Church to an extent already is in apostasy in that we don't live the Law of Consecration which is the higher law.

Third this is the dispensation of the fullness of times which will usher in the millennial reign of Christ. The next apostasy isn't prophecies until the end of that time period.

Fourth the way Lord set up the order of the priesthood short of a bomb dropping on the middle of their weekly meeting there will always be leadership.

I feel as if only your third and fourth points are more relevant to be addressed.

With regards to your third point, does this mean the LDS Church will inevitably go into Apostasy?

As to the killing off of the 70 and the Apostles, you have to acknowledge that it happened once before with the original 12 disciples and the original 70 and if God didn't specially protect them or their ministry, why should you expect God to specially protect the ministry of the new 70 or new 12? Technically John is still alive in Mormonism so there are thirteen living Apostles and seems to act as a backup int he case of the Church which God has seemingly given over to men, failing.

That's really my main argument, since the Church God established is not specially protected by himself (or else it would not have fallen before) and he leaves it entirely in the hands of free willing individuals, there is always the capacity to apostasy. This is especially the case when your leaders could potentially die and God would not replace them like he did not replace them for the Christians over the last 2000 years until Joseph Smith.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I feel as if only your third and fourth points are more relevant to be addressed.

With regards to your third point, does this mean the LDS Church will inevitably go into Apostasy?

As to the killing off of the 70 and the Apostles, you have to acknowledge that it happened once before with the original 12 disciples and the original 70 and if God didn't specially protect them or their ministry, why should you expect God to specially protect the ministry of the new 70 or new 12? Technically John is still alive in Mormonism so there are thirteen living Apostles and seems to act as a backup int he case of the Church which God has seemingly given over to men, failing.

That's really my main argument, since the Church God established is not specially protected by himself (or else it would not have fallen before) and he leaves it entirely in the hands of free willing individuals, there is always the capacity to apostasy. This is especially the case when your leaders could potentially die and God would not replace them like he did not replace them for the Christians over the last 2000 years until Joseph Smith.[/QUOTE

As I understand it once the second coming happens the formal church as we know it today will desolove and will become a patriarchal order of family. We will be the family of God. There won't be Bishops but fathers and mothers. By the end of the mullinum everyone will have been resurrected Satan will be given power to tempt once again and some will come out in open rebellion. They will be put down and the final judgement will begin, those who rebelled will go into outer darkness with Satan.

The reason we know it won't happen is because this generation is the one preparing for the second coming. This is the fullness of times.

However I suppose we could become so wicked God gives up and just wipes all of us off the face of the land and start over, he's done that before.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The reason we know it won't happen is because this generation is the one preparing for the second coming. This is the fullness of times.

However I suppose we could become so wicked God gives up and just wipes all of us off the face of the land and start over, he's done that before.

During the first century the Church also expected Christ's imminent return, in fact that apocalyptic outlook characterises the first three centuries of Christian thinkers so i think you are special pleading on the part of Mormons. What makes this the fullness of times that protects you when the earlier Church was not protected?

Also would you agree with my conclusion that the LDS Church is primarily in the hands of men to protect and preserve?

 

[Peter1000]

So this isn't an argument that the LDS Church has gone into Apostasy (though I think that argument could be made) rather it is an argument that the LDS Church can potentially go into Apostasy.

I would base this simply on the fact that if it happened once before, it can happen again. Typical arguments for the great Apostasy by Mormons ascribe a lack of faith and the entering of corruption into the Church of the first few centuries. This is done so as to save God's reputation. It is not the fault of God but of men that the original Church fell into Apostasy and when there was no more faithful or the Apostles failed to appoint credentialed successors there was in effect no Church. The Church rests in the hands of it's leadership, if the twelve or the seventy should die without appointing successors within the LDS there would be no means of passing on priesthood authority and directly as a result they would have entered Apostasy.

Now if the LDS Church represents a restored Gospel and not something fundamentally new this presents a problem to me since the LDS is essentially the same institution of the first century. That is LDS believe the temple rites and their teachings come from Christ and have been restored to us in the latter days. Now if the LDS is in essence the same Church in continuation from the Apostle John it's function is theoretically the same. The control and responsibility of the Church does not lie in God's hands but in the hands of men whom bare responsibility for it.

This means there is no special guarantee to the current LDS institution of them being protected anymore than the Church Christ originally founded (which became corrupted) was. If there is a new protective status then one would have to wonder why God let it happen in the first place or if the LDS Church is something fundamentally other than that which Christ himself instituted. If the Church Christ instituted among men could fall it follows that the LDS Church (which is the same Church Christ established) among men could also potentially fall victim to the gates of Hades.

I would conclude from this there is a possibility of Apostasy happening within the LDS Church if certain conditions are met. Do LDS adhere to the revelation of Joseph Smith faithfully? Do LDS preserve their leadership? If the answer is no then there is apostasy and the fault lies at the hands of LDS and not their Heavenly Father per LDS understanding.

I would give you good marks for logic. The LDS could go into apostasy. If the foundation of the church was destroyed, the church would fall. If the apostles were killed as they travel the world and at home and eventually the 12 were lost, there would be an apostasy. You are right on target.

When the Lord Jesus Christ came to the prophet JS and told him that he would be an instrument in his hands to restore the true church to the earth again. He told him the church would not be taken again from the earth. For these were the last days spoken of in the scriptures and the church was necessary to prepare the world for his second coming.

So although your scenario of apostasy is possible, it will not happen because there is much to be accomplished before the millennium. The present day 12 apostles will be busy throughout the world, preparing the world for Jesus's second coming. Jesus ushered in the last dispensation through the prophet JS to restore all things to the earth in preparation for that day. So the keys of the KOG were restored and the essential ordinances were restored and the true doctrines were restored that have been debated for centuries.

Like I say 10 minutes with the Lord Jesus Christ gives more knowledge than 2,000 years of philosophical debate.

 

[Peter1000]

Here's what they teach:
The Church of Jesus Christ Will Never Be Destroyed

• What is the mission of the Church?

Since its restoration in 1830, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has grown rapidly in membership. There are members in nearly every country in the world. The Church will continue to grow. As Christ said, “This Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations” (Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:31). The Church will never again be taken from the earth. Its mission is to take the truth to every person. Thousands of years ago, the Lord said He would “set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, … and it shall stand for ever” (Daniel 2:44).
Chapter 17: The Church of Jesus Christ Today

D&C 135
3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.

History of the Church, Volume 6:
President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. II Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.

God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me. They have got wonderful things in the land of Ham. I think the grand jury have strained at a gnat and swallowed the camel.
(pages 408-409)

Thank you again Phoebe Ann.

 

[Peter1000]

Seems to me like Special pleading. The Apostles heard Christ say that the Church would not fall to the gates of Hades and yet their work and ministry fell apart, being corrupted to such a degree that not even God wanted to save the original historic community. The latter day saint could argue that the Church was preserved and didn't fall since John was still alive and able to transfer the keys yet if that follows then we can harmonise what the LDS manual says with the idea that the LDS could fall into apostasy and John would preserve the Church still allowing for him to restore it at a latter date.

Since God within the LDS has shown his willingness to give complete control of the viability of the community to the community itself (a hands off sort of approach) and the LDS claim to not be a new Church but a restored Church they should not imagine themselves immune anymore than the early Church imagined themselves protected. I dare say that would constitute the sin of Pride.

The LDS is not immune to those kinds of processes. However, as long as revelation continues to be received by the apostles and prophets, the gates of hell shall not prevail, just as in the case of the NT church. So in our day, the apostles and prophets would have to be killed and the foundation broken and revelation cease, and then the scattered Mormon churches would try to coalesce around the most wealthy and populated churches, and try to keep the true doctrines taught. But eventually, this would lead to the kingdom of thrones again. And John would have to gather the keys and hold them to a time when another restoration would take place.

But alas, the Lord has promised to keep the foundation sturdy at this time so as to prepare for his second coming. So he restored the organization of the church, the keys of the KOG, the essential ordinances, and the doctrines of the KOG, to prepare the world for his second coming.

 

[drstevej]

So he restored the organization of the church, the keys of the KOG, the essential ordinances, and the doctrines of the KOG, to prepare the world for his second coming.

FLDS & Warren Jeffs would agree.

 

[withwonderingawe]

During the first century the Church also expected Christ's imminent return, in fact that apocalyptic outlook characterises the first three centuries of Christian thinkers so i think you are special pleading on the part of Mormons. What makes this the fullness of times that protects you when the earlier Church was not protected?

Also would you agree with my conclusion that the LDS Church is primarily in the hands of men to protect and preserve?

Yes the did but then the begin to change their attitudes. Peter warns of false prophets which would come among them, and many would follow them, with feigned words make merchandise of you. He ends his second letter with "seeing ye know these things behold, beware least ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness..." John writes about the last time, "little children it is the last time: and ye have heard that anti Christ shall come, even now are there many anti Christ; where by we know it is the last time." Well he wasn't talking about today but the then and there. Paul of course said the second coming would not happen until there was a falling away and that it had begun. I won't go through all of the passage now but you really aught to sit down with the New Testament and see just how often they spoke of false teachers coming from within the church!

 

[Rescued One]

Jesus and Peter were right. They warned us about Joseph Smith and his followers. However, I don't recall them saying that Christians would be false prophets and false Christs.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I would give you good marks for logic. The LDS could go into apostasy. If the foundation of the church was destroyed, the church would fall. If the apostles were killed as they travel the world and at home and eventually the 12 were lost, there would be an apostasy. You are right on target.

When the Lord Jesus Christ came to the prophet JS and told him that he would be an instrument in his hands to restore the true church to the earth again. He told him the church would not be taken again from the earth. For these were the last days spoken of in the scriptures and the church was necessary to prepare the world for his second coming.

So although your scenario of apostasy is possible, it will not happen because there is much to be accomplished before the millennium. The present day 12 apostles will be busy throughout the world, preparing the world for Jesus's second coming. Jesus ushered in the last dispensation through the prophet JS to restore all things to the earth in preparation for that day. So the keys of the KOG were restored and the essential ordinances were restored and the true doctrines were restored that have been debated for centuries.

What is there to be accomplished exactly that can make up for 1700 years of divine silence? Was there nothing to be accomplished during the age of Apostasy that would have helped the true Gospel flourish rather than a false one? The promise you believe you have received from Joseph Smith doesn't have any more a guarantee than the promise the Apostles received that the Spirit would abide with them forever (John 14:16) and that the Church would not fall to the gates of Hades (Mat 16:18). God has shown within Mormonism he will not save people from their mistakes and it took John to the 1800s to anoint someone a new Prophet all the while he saw a Church rise and teach abominations to the world.

I see no reason for Mormon confidence given the first apostasy happened and that God leaves the Church ultimately in the hands of men to preserve.

Like I say 10 minutes with the Lord Jesus Christ gives more knowledge than 2,000 years of philosophical debate.

2,000 years of Christian philosophical debate which is fuelled by the desire to know God and who he is from his revelation in Christ to the point of martyrdom and the giving up of all earthly pleasures for his sake. One wonders why if Ten minutes were worth more than 2,000 years, god didn't take 10 minutes out of his time to share that wisdom with us and instead let us flounder in superstition and abomination, but that's just me.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The LDS is not immune to those kinds of processes. However, as long as revelation continues to be received by the apostles and prophets, the gates of hell shall not prevail, just as in the case of the NT church. So in our day, the apostles and prophets would have to be killed and the foundation broken and revelation cease, and then the scattered Mormon churches would try to coalesce around the most wealthy and populated churches, and try to keep the true doctrines taught. But eventually, this would lead to the kingdom of thrones again. And John would have to gather the keys and hold them to a time when another restoration would take place.

But alas, the Lord has promised to keep the foundation sturdy at this time so as to prepare for his second coming. So he restored the organization of the church, the keys of the KOG, the essential ordinances, and the doctrines of the KOG, to prepare the world for his second coming.

Yet why is this foundation greater than the foundation Christ established 2,000 years ago? It's the same keys, same organisation, same doctrines, same ordinances and beliefs. What gives this Church perpetuity while the original Church did not have it? UNless you are a different Church with a wholly new constitution (or Testament) I see no warrant for this confidence.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Yes the did but then the begin to change their attitudes. Peter warns of false prophets which would come among them, and many would follow them, with feigned words make merchandise of you. He ends his second letter with "seeing ye know these things behold, beware least ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness..." John writes about the last time, "little children it is the last time: and ye have heard that anti Christ shall come, even now are there many anti Christ; where by we know it is the last time." Well he wasn't talking about today but the then and there. Paul of course said the second coming would not happen until there was a falling away and that it had begun. I won't go through all of the passage now but you really aught to sit down with the New Testament and see just how often they spoke of false teachers coming from within the church!

I agree there were false teachers, even in the 1st century. There were false teachers and False Prophets like Joseph Smith in the 18th century. Those passages don't guarantee an apostasy of the Church then since we should judge those who followed on the basis of what they received in the Apostolic deposit not by a 18th century revisionist history of the matter.

Also these verses should apply to your own Church as much as you believe they applied to mine. False Prophets can arise within Mormonism, in fact there are those with Prophetic experiences whom LDS leadership has condemned no? There are those who hold to the original revelation given by Joseph Smith and reject New Prophecies as deviations from what was originally received (Fundamentalist mormons and so on).

None of this guarantees the perpetuity of the LDS Church from apostasy.

 

[withwonderingawe]

What is there to be accomplished exactly that can make up for 1700 years of divine silence? Was there nothing to be accomplished during the age of Apostasy that would have helped the true Gospel flourish rather than a false one? The promise you believe you have received from Joseph Smith doesn't have any more a guarantee than the promise the Apostles received that the Spirit would abide with them forever (John 14:16) and that the Church would not fall to the gates of Hades (Mat 16:18). God has shown within Mormonism he will not save people from their mistakes and it took John to the 1800s to anoint someone a new Prophet all the while he saw a Church rise and teach abominations to the world.

I see no reason for Mormon confidence given the first apostasy happened and that God leaves the Church ultimately in the hands of men to preserve.



2,000 years of Christian philosophical debate which is fuelled by the desire to know God and who he is from his revelation in Christ to the point of martyrdom and the giving up of all earthly pleasures for his sake. One wonders why if Ten minutes were worth more than 2,000 years, god didn't take 10 minutes out of his time to share that wisdom with us and instead let us flounder in superstition and abomination, but that's just me.

Why the 1700 years, I don't know for sure but that it was prophesied about. Amos saw a time when men would wander from sea to sea looking for the word of God and unable to find it, a famine of hearing the words of God. Isaiah spoke of a time the sun would be darkened in the middle of the day, and the prophets and seers would be covered. Daniel spoke of a time after the Messiah would be cut off there would a spreading of abomination, as a flood. In Revelations John talks about the woman or church fleeing into the wilderness, he says Satan will be give a time to make war with the saints and to over come them. Apparently Satan had to have his moment in time, I don't know why.

I can speculate a little but you need some basic doctrine.

1,In Mormon doctrine we are all spirit children of God and he knows us each. He knows what our potential is. In our Book of Abraham it explains there are different levels of spirits each greater than another.

2, God the Father only gives and expects back what we can handle. The parable of the Talents is a good example. Where much is given much is expected. We are each placed on earth in situations with varying amounts of light and knowledge, we will only be judge by the amount of knowledge we are given. Some have very little knowledge of God, others have the basic 10 commandments. They will not receive the same judgement as a christian who has been taught to turn the other cheek, go the second mile, do good to those who persecute you. Christians will be judged by a higher standered.

I also think there is an amount of agency given, before coming here we understand the reward system and the consquines for disobedience. The path is narrow but there is no speed limit posted there. There seems to be a vast majority who chose to take a slower walk up the pathway but perhaps in the long run a more sure approach to salvation and exaltation. Their baptisms will be done and they will have the thousand years to live with Christ before the final judgement.

3, For 1700 years, those were the basic three condition God sent his spirit children into because that is the amount of light and knowledge they could handle or wanted, they will be rewarded accordingly.

4, But now it is time to bring this earth to an end, to fulfil Paul's prophecy about the dispensation of the fullness of time, to "gather together in one all in Christ both which are in heaven / those who have died, and which are on the earth; even in him."

And so in 1820 the restitution of all things commenced, the prophecy of the Angel to the apostles happened, "...this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven". When Joseph knelt down in prayer the heavens were open and a light descended upon him and in that light the Father and Son appeared.

Because of this there are spirit children who are or should be more capable of entering into and taking upon them the covenants of the New and everlasting covenant which are coming to earth. These are given much and much more is expected. The sealing power has been restored to the earth and the whole family of heaven and earth are just begining to be sealed into one.

Anyway that is my speculation. It all has to do with God's just judgement.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Why the 1700 years, I don't know for sure but that it was prophesied about. Amos saw a time when men would wander from sea to sea looking for the word of God and unable to find it, a famine of hearing the words of God. Isaiah spoke of a time the sun would be darkened in the middle of the day, and the prophets and seers would be covered. Daniel spoke of a time after the Messiah would be cut off there would a spreading of abomination, as a flood. In Revelations John talks about the woman or church fleeing into the wilderness, he says Satan will be give a time to make war with the saints and to over come them. Apparently Satan had to have his moment in time, I don't know why.

I can speculate a little but you need some basic doctrine.

1,In Mormon doctrine we are all spirit children of God and he knows us each. He knows what our potential is. In our Book of Abraham it explains there are different levels of spirits each greater than another.

2, God the Father only gives and expects back what we can handle. The parable of the Talents is a good example. Where much is given much is expected. We are each placed on earth in situations with varying amounts of light and knowledge, we will only be judge by the amount of knowledge we are given. Some have very little knowledge of God, others have the basic 10 commandments. They will not receive the same judgement as a christian who has been taught to turn the other cheek, go the second mile, do good to those who persecute you. Christians will be judged by a higher standered.

I also think there is an amount of agency given, before coming here we understand the reward system and the consquines for disobedience. The path is narrow but there is no speed limit posted there. There seems to be a vast majority who chose to take a slower walk up the pathway but perhaps in the long run a more sure approach to salvation and exaltation. Their baptisms will be done and they will have the thousand years to live with Christ before the final judgement.

3, For 1700 years, those were the basic three condition God sent his spirit children into because that is the amount of light and knowledge they could handle or wanted, they will be rewarded accordingly.

4, But now it is time to bring this earth to an end, to fulfil Paul's prophecy about the dispensation of the fullness of time, to "gather together in one all in Christ both which are in heaven / those who have died, and which are on the earth; even in him."

And so in 1820 the restitution of all things commenced, the prophecy of the Angel to the apostles happened, "...this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven". When Joseph knelt down in prayer the heavens were open and a light descended upon him and in that light the Father and Son appeared.

Because of this there are spirit children who are or should be more capable of entering into and taking upon them the covenants of the New and everlasting covenant which are coming to earth. These are given much and much more is expected. The sealing power has been restored to the earth and the whole family of heaven and earth are just begining to be sealed into one.

Anyway that is my speculation. It all has to do with God's just judgement.

To interpret Amos (8:11-12) and Isaiah as speaking about a great apostasy is a bit of stretch in my opinion. Same with the rest of the verses you have appealed to. God's word lasts forever, we see in God establishing Israel God's care for his people that even if the majority should fall away a remnant shall remain. That despite the failure of the people he will persevere with them. Mormonism flips the situation and would essentially have us believe it was not God preserving his people, it was man preserving what God gave them. The reason why Israel survived was because men preserved it not because God preserved it.

I would think not knowing why Satan had to spread the worlds largest false religion, utterly obliterating from the face of the earth all evidence of Mormonism pre-mormonism in the Americas and ancient Roman world is the only reasonable position you can hold to. It is inexplicable why God should allow Christianity as an institution to flourish if it is an abomination and the essentials of the faith are missing (eternal marriages, Mormon rituals, temples and etc). I would look at myself as an example, who knows and loves Church history. The Christian men and women before the Mormon Church were not insincere, they did not seek to corrupt the Church with their reflections on the revelation they received. They did what they could in spite of God not giving them what they needed (prophecy) to correct them. What was the result? It was a Christianity so powerful that Mormons cannot expect to overcome it especially in an age of secularism and rapid islamisation. I could be proven wrong on this in the distant future but I doubt it, certainty the fruits of Mormonism are nothing special.

As regards to point three. It would seem to me since CHristians lacked the Mormon sacraments they could not enter into the highest heavens. Those whom thought they were marrying in the eyes of God before a minister/Bishop in the history of the Church were not, they were being married according to mankind and not God. Their marriage was fundamentally secular, lacking the keys which John provided Joseph Smith. Perhaps you can vicariously baptise some couples or famous people in history and marry them vicariously as well, but they majority of them will exist as servants and will be denied the truest and greatest existence possible.

Yet none of this would guarantee the Mormon Church being preserved until the end times. The God of Mormonism didn't protect the Church community Christ established and Christ was far more holier, wiser and greater than Joseph Smith.

 

[Peter1000]

FLDS & Warren Jeffs would agree.

Yes they would, but then the 3rd prophet after JS was commanded to end the doctrine of plural marriage, they would not agree, and this is where we part company. They do not understand that the current prophet is far more powerful than a dead prophet. The current prophet receives current information from Jesus Christ, about current problems, problems that may not have existed during a dead prophets tenure. So the church does have the historical record which is priceless, but for doctrine, it cannot rely solely on the words of a dead prophet. The words of a living oracle of Jesus Christ are more valuable. That goes for the Bible and the BOM and the D&C too.

 

[Peter1000]

To interpret Amos (8:11-12) and Isaiah as speaking about a great apostasy is a bit of stretch in my opinion. Same with the rest of the verses you have appealed to. God's word lasts forever, we see in God establishing Israel God's care for his people that even if the majority should fall away a remnant shall remain. That despite the failure of the people he will persevere with them. Mormonism flips the situation and would essentially have us believe it was not God preserving his people, it was man preserving what God gave them. The reason why Israel survived was because men preserved it not because God preserved it.

I would think not knowing why Satan had to spread the worlds largest false religion, utterly obliterating from the face of the earth all evidence of Mormonism pre-mormonism in the Americas and ancient Roman world is the only reasonable position you can hold to. It is inexplicable why God should allow Christianity as an institution to flourish if it is an abomination and the essentials of the faith are missing (eternal marriages, Mormon rituals, temples and etc). I would look at myself as an example, who knows and loves Church history.

The Christian men and women before the Mormon Church were not insincere, they did not seek to corrupt the Church with their reflections on the revelation they received. They did what they could in spite of God not giving them what they needed (prophecy) to correct them.

What was the result? It was a Christianity so powerful that Mormons cannot expect to overcome it especially in an age of secularism and rapid islamisation. I could be proven wrong on this in the distant future but I doubt it, certainty the fruits of Mormonism are nothing special.

As regards to point three. It would seem to me since CHristians lacked the Mormon sacraments they could not enter into the highest heavens. Those whom thought they were marrying in the eyes of God before a minister/Bishop in the history of the Church were not, they were being married according to mankind and not God. Their marriage was fundamentally secular, lacking the keys which John provided Joseph Smith. Perhaps you can vicariously baptise some couples or famous people in history and marry them vicariously as well, but they majority of them will exist as servants and will be denied the truest and greatest existence possible.

Yet none of this would guarantee the Mormon Church being preserved until the end times. The God of Mormonism didn't protect the Church community Christ established and Christ was far more holier, wiser and greater than Joseph Smith.

The Christian men and women before the Mormon Church were not insincere, they did not seek to corrupt the Church with their reflections on the revelation they received. They did what they could in spite of God not giving them what they needed (prophecy) to correct them.

I read your entire response, but this part intrigued me. You say, the people did what they could in spite of God not giving them what they needed (prophecy - and I would call that 'revelation') to correct them. It is to this comment that I would like to respond.

The result of this lack of prophecy/revelation is the key to the apostasy. They tried to correct themselves, but did not have Jesus Christ as their guide. They truly were following their own wisdom (which in many cases was sufficient, for we are intelligent people), but the loss of the apostles and prophets, and their direct contact with Jesus Christ was crucial to maintaining the right course, and the true corrections that needed to keep the church on the right path.

You understand the concept that if a builder is off just a quarter of an inch at the beginning, the end result could be that the whole building is off centered by many feet and therefore is considered unstable or inhabitable. To try to retrofit (reform) the building would just be throwing good money after bad. The building needs to be torn down and replaced (restored) with good workmanship.

So after the apostles died, it did not matter how sincere the people were, decisions were made that were off-center just a little bit, and as time went on, the building began to sag and to sway, being without a proper foundation. As time went on and persecution killed other good leaders, others stepped in to make decisions. Many decisions were based on monetary reasons, and for optimum expansion of power, I have called it a game of thrones.
By 400ad, Christian men and women were being burned alive because they did not agree with the general authorities of the church of Jesus Christ. Can you imagine Jesus torturing and killing men, women, and children because they did not believe a particular doctrine? Or rebelled against a totally depraved and corrupt bishopbric??

By the time of reformation, the true church of Jesus Christ did not exist on the earth. Men like Luther recognized it, and tried to retrofit the building, but it was not enough. The reformers fought amongst themselves and 5 major divisions took away the dynamic force of the reformation. You could not tell whose reformation was the true church reformation. They were all strong and weak, attracting many followers, but not all, and this condition has lasted for hundreds of years now. But which one was the true church?

The Lord then chose to tear down and rebuild and replace, which he did through the prophet JS. He restored the keys of the KOG, the ancient organization with apostles and prophets etc., he restored the ancient ordinances, necessary for salvation, and he restored the true doctrines, and the most important, he restored the connection between himself and apostles and prophets so that the church could be corrected and stay on the right path.

That has resulted in a powerful movement that has gone viral, all over the world, and will continue to grow, despite resistance from all sides. satan, truly has tried to stop it, and will continue to try and stop it but he will not prevail. The church is here to find that remnant that you talked about that the Lord kept hidden until this day, and all over the world men and women hear about JS and the doctrine of the restoration and believe and are baptized.

So the people tried, but they got off by 1/4 of an inch and it eventually resulted in the apostasy, regardless of the pomp and ceremony and power and money and beauty of form that it produced, it was not the full truth as in the days of the apostles and prophets.