The Pope's environmental encyclical has been released, discuss here.

[smaneck]

I would, too. People think SSI is "their retirement", when it cannot be. But the government sells it like that. Same with Medicare.
Teach people real principals of how to build wealth and save for a rainy day. You won't need blanket medical coverage. All you need is to be insured for catastrophe. You can pay for doctor visits and emergency, if you save and don't live paycheck to paycheck. If you can't afford to live, the government should help you, with the understanding that you will eventually get off the snide.

Which is why I don't think you and the Pope are on the same page. The people who think SSI as their retirement are those who don't earn enough to do anything but live from paycheck to paycheck for simple reason they are not paid a living wage. If the government would at least require business to do that much we could get rid of a lot of our social welfare programs or at least decrease the number of people dependent on them.

 

[MikeK]

You would consider aluminum engine blocks a good safety feature? I don't. I've seen the results of accidents these days, and I drive very cautiously. I will not drive a mid-size. Not safe. I drive a bigger vehicle, just not very much. About 5000 miles a year.

Cast iron engine blocks are not safer than aluminum engine blocks. Cars of similar classes today are both safer in accidents and better at avoiding accidents than they were 20 or 40 or 60 years ago. The per-capita rate of highway fatalities is far lower than in previous eras AND the rate of fatalities per accident is lower.

 

[Root of Jesse]

According to the Pope the systems have to change.

Right. Social encyclicals are calls to the individual.

Because the problem is immediate and we've left it too late to dither.
When catastrophe is looming, you don't have the luxury of changing things slowly

I don't see any catastrophe.

You're disagreeing with an encyclical you haven't read. Congratulations.

How do you know I haven't read it? And why do you insist that I'm disagreeing with the encyclical? I am entitled to disagree with his opinions, don't you know?

 

[MikeK]

Right. Social encyclicals are calls to the individual.
I don't see any catastrophe.
How do you know I haven't read it? And why do you insist that I'm disagreeing with the encyclical? I am entitled to disagree with his opinions, don't you know?

If you don't se any catastrophe, you either have not read or do not agree with the Encyclical. The Encyclical made it clear that this is an issue that, if we stay our course, will cause suffering and death on a large scale to human life. That's a catastrophe.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Which is why I don't think you and the Pope are on the same page. The people who think SSI as their retirement are those who don't earn enough to do anything but live from paycheck to paycheck for simple reason they are not paid a living wage. If the government would at least require business to do that much we could get rid of a lot of our social welfare programs or at least decrease the number of people dependent on them.

How many career minimum wage people do you know? All the ones I know are school kids. This living wage stuff is ridiculous. I left the Navy with honorable discharge, could not find a job in my field, so I changed my field. Started at $2 over minimum wage with a kid in college, a mortgage and bills to pay. I kept at it until I could command a living wage. You don't get that handed to you. I will grant you that a lucky break was handed me at one point, but only because the person paid to do the job was too lazy to do it. So I benefited. But minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage.

 

[Root of Jesse]

If you don't se any catastrophe, you either have not read or do not agree with the Encyclical. The Encyclical made it clear that this is an issue that, if we stay our course, will cause suffering and death on a large scale to human life. That's a catastrophe.

Specifically, when, Mike? I agree with the steps the Pope wants us individually to take regarding consumption and conservation. That's the only part he's authoritative on. I'm entitled to disagree with his politics. I actually think he, and one of my former pastors, should steer clear of political issues.
You know, recently my diocese sent out a pastoral letter which essentially cast a tax on every parish. Even if I don't support the diocese's spending of money, I did give to support my parish in this 'capital campaign'.
The point is, Mike, I do my part. Could I do more? Definitely! But I asked you a while back what you do for conservation purposes. I don't recall an answer. Regardless, I do what I do from my heart, of my own free will, not because of something imposed on me from above. I don't like having to obey laws Pharisaically. I do it from my heart and soul. Theodore Roosevelt was a conservationist who burned wood, shot animals, and was President over the Industrial Age of our country. Use, use wisely, don't waste. That's all there is to it. Don't buy 80" televisions, when your current one is still in good shape. Don't eat so much red meat. Don't start the car for every little excuse. Carpool, use public transportation, recycle. Keep your car tuned and your tires inflated properly. Let the government regulate what they need to, but stay off my toes. By the way, isn't that John Kerry's attitude regarding a wind farm?

 

[smaneck]

How many career minimum wage people do you know? All the ones I know are school kids.

Too many or at least barely over minimum wage. I have tenants who have skilled jobs or even management positions where they make $8 an hour. Most of them are in their fifties and because our state refused to extend Medicaid many of them don't have health insurance because they don't make enough to qualify for Obamacare.

This living wage stuff is ridiculous. I left the Navy with honorable discharge, could not find a job in my field, so I changed my field. Started at $2 over minimum wage with a kid in college, a mortgage and bills to pay.

I'm guessing you're not black and you don't live in Mississippi like my tenants. This is a right to starve state.

But minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage.

That's precisely what it was meant to be and it is unbiblical to pay them any less.

 

[smaneck]

Specifically, when, Mike? I agree with the steps the Pope wants us individually to take regarding consumption and conservation. That's the only part he's authoritative on.

So Catholics should not oppose abortion politically because the prohibition is found in Encyclicals and are only authoritative for individual Catholics?

Just so we are clear.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Too many or at least barely over minimum wage. I have tenants who have skilled jobs or even management positions where they make $8 an hour. Most of them are in their fifties and because our state refused to extend Medicaid many of them don't have health insurance because they don't make enough to qualify for Obamacare.

That's your standard of living. See how great Obamacare is? That's why they don't have health insurance. Besides, health insurance is different than health care.

I'm guessing you're not black and you don't live in Mississippi like my tenants. This is a right to starve state.

Right next door, where I started from. I'll bet they're getting government assistance of some degree.

That's precisely what it was meant to be and it is unbiblical to pay them any less.

Horse hockey. Min wage is for entry level positions to attain skills that move you up into better work and better pay. It's unBiblical to pay them less than fairly. So now we're talking about what's fair. And Biblically, that's for the employer to decide.

 

[Root of Jesse]

So Catholics should not oppose abortion politically because the prohibition is found in Encyclicals and are only authoritative for individual Catholics?

Just so we are clear.

Politics is aside from the moral issue. It's better to touch hearts individually rather than impose sweeping rules.

 

[smaneck]

Here is a Baha'i response to this Encyclical:

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Indi...-defending-the-earth’s-environment-34580.html

three aspects are of particular importance in the encyclical, namely,

“it is based unequivocally on the scientific consensus that global warming is taking place and that climate change is man-made;

“it rejects the denial of anthropogenic warming; it unmasks the political and economic structures of power behind the climate change debate and stresses the importance of non-state actors in achieving change; and

“it defines the atmosphere and the environment as a common good rather than a ‘no man’s land’, available for anyone to pollute.”

For the Baha‘I leader, "Although the encyclical puts a focus on the poor it is not merely a moral scripture. It is also no ordinary appeal to governments to act.”

In fact, the document “explicitly states that international negotiations have so far not made significant progress (169) and accuses international politics of its weak response (54).”

For him, “the Pope does not address governments as main actors, nor does he frame the climate problem only as the responsibility of each individual. Instead, the encyclical underlines the importance of collective actors such as cooperatives, non-governmental organizations and civil society (179).”

Since “Individual actions alone will achieve little, [. . .] together they can make a difference. Perhaps this is the overarching message of the encyclical,” he noted.

“The fair management of the global commons is one of the most important tasks of the 21st century. This can only be successful if a large number of actors across different levels of governance, ranging from global, to regional and local, link up together.”

“As national trustee of the Baha'i community in India, I am convinced that the Holy Father’s inspiring words will have an impact not only on Catholics worldwide, but also on the whole cross-section of the world’s population." (NC)

Seems like we like this Encyclical more than a lot of Catholics.

 

[frenchdefense]

Politics is aside from the moral issue. It's better to touch hearts individually rather than impose sweeping rules.

Right.

That's why abortion should be kept legal.

Better that someone should not have one by individual choice then be forced to stay pregnant by the state and have the choice made for them.

(Oops)

 

[smaneck]

That's your standard of living. See how great Obamacare is? That's why they don't have health insurance. Besides, health insurance is different than health care.

No, the intention of the Affordable Care Act was that people who fall through the cracks this way would become eligible for Medicaid. Then the courts said that states could opt out. So this is the fault of our governor and state legislature.

Right next door, where I started from. I'll bet they're getting government assistance of some degree

.

Obviously my Section 8 tenants are getting government assistance, but why should the government subsidize Walmart?

Min wage is for entry level positions to attain skills tht move you up into better work and better pay.

Better work and better pay in Mississippi means $8 an hour instead of $7.25. Whoopee!

It's unBiblical to pay them less than fairly. So now we're talking about what's fair.

And less than a living wage is less than fair.

And Biblically, that's for the employer to decide.

Wrong. In the parable of the workers in the vineyard the worker were all paid a dinar, which back then was a living wage. That's why the landowner paid those who worked only an hour the same, because if they didn't get a dinar they wouldn't eat that day.

 

[smaneck]

Politics is aside from the moral issue. It's better to touch hearts individually rather than impose sweeping rules.

So you agree with legalizing abortion?

 

[smaneck]

Right.

That's why abortion should be kept legal.

Better that someone should not have one by individual choice then be forced to stay pregnant by the state and have the choice made for them.

(Oops)

Spoken like a true Frenchmen. I'm just checking to see how consistent people are being.

 

[ebia]

Right. Social encyclicals are calls to the individual.

er, no.

I don't see any catastrophe.

The encyclical has strong words about people who deny it.

How do you know I haven't read it?

I am reading it.

And why do you insist that I'm disagreeing with the encyclical?

because you are

I am entitled to disagree with his opinions, don't you know?

See Pius XII on the authority of encyclicals.[/quote]

 

[setmefree]

How many career minimum wage people do you know? All the ones I know are school kids. This living wage stuff is ridiculous. I left the Navy with honorable discharge, could not find a job in my field, so I changed my field. Started at $2 over minimum wage with a kid in college, a mortgage and bills to pay. I kept at it until I could command a living wage. You don't get that handed to you. I will grant you that a lucky break was handed me at one point, but only because the person paid to do the job was too lazy to do it. So I benefited. But minimum wage is not meant to be a living wage.

Im 56 and in 2012 lost my job of 34 yrs due to the company I worked for going bankrupt. I was making a reasonable amount of money. Now I have not had full-time work since. Just a series of seasonable position that pay a bit above minimum wage. I assure you I am not an exception. Luckily I am married to a woman who makes about $12.00 per hour. I took our savings and paid off our very modest home.
She has our insurance but I know a lot about the Affordable Care Act. I have lived in Canada, England and the US. When in England I work a summer in France and 4 months in Israel. In both cases i had to have medical treatment. Of all the countries I have mentioned the US is the only one of them that does not have Universal Health Care. I will take any one of those systems with their faults any day over what is offered in this country. Essentially all the propaganda you hear about other healthcare system actually comes down to the following. There are longer wait times for NON essential procedures and you have to pay higher taxes in one form or another. Also its very likely you will have to share a hospital room with another couple people when infection isn't an issue. The life expectancy and all other health measures are as good or better then the US. They also manage to do it at a drastically lower % of GDP
So lets say you want/ need a artificial hip. In the US if you are lucky enough to have good insurance you get it very quickly. In the other countries you may have to wait a long time. My view is that artificial hip is a miracle in itself. In this country some think its a procedure they should get right this second. They don't feel that its a truly amazing thing that they are grateful for. No. They have adopted an attitude of entitlement and waiting for this miracle like in other countries is unacceptable. This attitude in my opinion is so against the teaching of Christianity and the Catholic Church I can't believe there are so many who think this way regarding healthcare and everything else in their very privileged lives.
The wealthy of the world are growing more disdainful of the people who have nothing or very little. They are not just satisfied with having their wealth. Their mission now appears to be to take more and ore away from those who have so little. Its called greed and entitlement to have more than others. They get angry at the poor and claim they are all dishonest and trying to cheat the system. They defend their position under the guise of patriotism and superiority moral authority. The Pope is speaking to these people of wealth and entitlement with this encyclical and in other ways. Predictably these people now think that they can ignore the leader of their church.

 

[Armoured]

And Biblically, that's for the employer to decide.

*eyeroll*

 

[frenchdefense]

Spoken like a true Frenchmen. I'm just checking to see how consistent people are being.

....huh ?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Right.

That's why abortion should be kept legal.

Better that someone should not have one by individual choice then be forced to stay pregnant by the state and have the choice made for them.

(Oops)

Where did anyone say it should be kept legal? I said it's better to touch hearts individually. Read for content.