The Pope is the antichrist: useful or useless, true or false?

[DaRev]

Rev - Considering that Christ prayed for his followers to be one and reflecting upon the fact that we are living in the age of Ecumenism, might it not be a good idea for the Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Synod to at the very least delete any specific reference to this matter in their denominational positions?

And deny Scripture in favor of a false unity? Why on earth would we want to do that? Christ did indeed pray that His followers be one, but He also had something to say about false teaching and rejecting Him and the One who sent Him.

 

[truefiction1]

Care to share your thoughts?

I'm afraid my thoughts wouldn't be very well received here, as I'm not Lutheran. Much of what I would reveal would no doubt be seen as a violation of forum rules, in that they might be easily construed as an attempt to proselytize. Not only that, conveying my thoughts adequately would require a significant time investment, not only in the writing of them, but also in the reading of them, as this is an extremely in depth topic in terms of history, human psychology (individual and social), and Theology.

I can say, however, that it has been quite an experience for me to have examined this thread. Thank you.

 

[Moses Medina]

Not to mention the points have been hammered down. The bible obviously disagrees with the whole concept of the papacy, and I agree to it, at the very least I don't understand how people can not see that the papacy is not biblical.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Rev - Considering that Christ prayed for his followers to be one and reflecting upon the fact that we are living in the age of Ecumenism, might it not be a good idea for the Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Synod to at the very least delete any specific reference to this matter in their denominational positions?

We're also living in the age of sexual immorality and same-sex marriage, and in the age where people openly mock God and Christianity.

Shall we change our stance on those as well, in the name of ecumenism? Shall we do away with the first commandment?

Think about what you're asking here.

 

[John Constantine]

Not to mention the points have been hammered down. The bible obviously disagrees with the whole concept of the papacy, and I agree to it, at the very least I don't understand how people can not see that the papacy is not biblical.

Because the RC is not based only on Scriptures. They hold to Traditions and traditions. But, regardless, they interpret the Pope as being scriptural from the passing down of the keys and the feed my lambs conversation with Christ.

The argument is much from silence during the first 800 years of the Church (approx), until the West determined to be under one Overseer - Bishopric Office.

As philosophical as I can be, I have a hard time "seeing" an Office as the Anti-Christ. The closest I can see as an Anti-Christ is Pope Boniface VII and his "Unam Sancta" encyclical where he says:

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Seriously...

Source: Search for Unam Sancta and select the link for Fordham (dot) edu.

I'm still under 50 posts

Peace

 

[John Constantine]

I've also read that the internet's "www" is the mark of the beast.

The letter Waw holds the 6th position in the Greek alphabet.

Lots of crazy and interesting stuff out there!

Peace.

 

[DaRev]

Because the RC is not based only on Scriptures. They hold to Traditions and traditions. But, regardless, they interpret the Pope as being scriptural from the passing down of the keys and the feed my lambs conversation with Christ.

The argument is much from silence during the first 800 years of the Church (approx), until the West determined to be under one Overseer - Bishopric Office.

As philosophical as I can be, I have a hard time "seeing" an Office as the Anti-Christ. The closest I can see as an Anti-Christ is Pope Boniface VII and his "Unam Sancta" encyclical where he says:

Seriously...

Source: Search for Unam Sancta and select the link for Fordham (dot) edu.

I'm still under 50 posts

Peace

Basically every Pope since then has upheld the Unam Sancta, so...

 

[truefiction1]

There are Keys to unlocking the riddle of anti-Christ. Neither the Pope nor the office of the Papacy is "the" Anti-Christ (Capital A). There will be only one like this. But there are many, many people who have been, are, and will be anti-Christs, including Christian bishops, possibly even Popes.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

There are Keys to unlocking the riddle of anti-Christ. Neither the Pope nor the office of the Papacy is "the" Anti-Christ (Capital A). There will be only one like this. But there are many, many people who have been, are, and will be anti-Christs, including Christian bishops, possibly even Popes.

The Lutheran (confessional anyway) belief is that the papacy is THE Anti-Christ.

 

[John Constantine]

Also, read the Treatise.

Please pardon my ignorance,

When you say the Treatise: is that the Smalcald Articles?

Thanks.

 

[DaRev]

Please pardon my ignorance,

When you say the Treatise: is that the Smalcald Articles?

Thanks.

No. It's the Treatise on the Power and the Primacy of the Pope.

 

[truefiction1]

The Lutheran (confessional anyway) belief is that the papacy is THE Anti-Christ.

a belief quite possibly arising by means of object transference/projection and the corresponding reasonings that follow, and not necessarily by the illumination of the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

a belief quite possibly arising by means of object transference/projection and the corresponding reasonings that follow, and not necessarily by the illumination of the Holy Spirit of God.

It's my understanding that the Eastern Orthodox, while not using the term "Antichrist", have the same issues with "Papal Authority" as we do; hence the separation between East and West.

 

[truefiction1]

It's my understanding that the Eastern Orthodox, while not using the term "Antichrist", have the same issues with "Papal Authority" as we do; hence the separation between East and West.

Yes.

Christ is in our midst!
He is and always shall be! Amen!

 

[John Constantine]

No. It's the Treatise on the Power and the Primacy of the Pope.

Thank you.

 

[Mediaeval]

In the Bible, an antichrist seems to be a person, not an abstraction like the 'office of the papacy.'

 

[wordsoflife]

I honestly believe it is true that the Papacy is the Anti-Christ. This belief was held by many of the reformers not just Luther. As you can see by clicking on the link below:

http://redeemerfw.org/resources/reformers_antichrist.pdf

 

[ContraMundum]

This paper from the Lutheran Church of Australia might give a balanced perspective.

http://www.truthorfables.net/dsto_2I_pope_antichrist.pdf

Anyway, to say that the Papacy denies Christ "coming in the flesh" would be ridiculous. Of all the ancient Sees, Rome is the only one that has never faltered on the person of Christ. This is why you have to be more careful with scripture, and understand that to the Reformers, the Office of the Papacy was antichrist not from a denial of the Deity or the orthodox doctrine of Christ (which is what the Apostle John was referring to re: gnostics etc) but from the perspective of the Gospel and false authority.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

This paper from the Lutheran Church of Australia might give a balanced perspective.

http://www.truthorfables.net/dsto_2I_pope_antichrist.pdf

Anyway, to say that the Papacy denies Christ "coming in the flesh" would be ridiculous. Of all the ancient Sees, Rome is the only one that has never faltered on the person of Christ. This is why you have to be more careful with scripture, and understand that to the Reformers, the Office of the Papacy was antichrist not from a denial of the Deity or the orthodox doctrine of Christ (which is what the Apostle John was referring to re: gnostics etc) but from the perspective of the Gospel and false authority.

Hi Contra; this statement pretty well sums up where I'm at.

 

[ContraMundum]

Hi Contra; this statement pretty well sums up where I'm at.

Yeah, I think I'm pretty much on that page too.