The physicality of Heaven

[petergavin504]

Hey, I've been struggling with something recently about Heaven and what it will be like. I know it's beyond our comprehension and stuff, but I'm pondering a question of a more fundamental sort, I think.
I know that our souls will receive glorified bodies at the resurrection of the dead. So we'll have bodies as well as souls in Heaven, right? And if one has a physical body, he must also be in a physical place. So that much is true, right?
But...here's the part I'm not too sure about. It seems to me that bodies are a sort of dividing force. For instance, if 2 people are on different sides of the world then obviously they can't have the same sort of communion/fellowship as if they were next to each other. So doesn't the physical world, like, hold us captive? And if we're going to be perfectly happy in heaven, then...how will the physical/material thing work?
I realize what I'm saying sounds sort of New Age or something, but I'm committed to orthodox Christianity. I just really have a hard time understanding this! The best "Christian" answer to this that I can come up with is that the physical world only seems limiting to us because of the Fall, and not because it's inherently limited. But I'm not sure...

 

[He put me back together]

Well, the first thing you must understand is the meaning of the word "soul," or at least the meaning of the words that thus translated from the Greek and Hebrew. In the Old Testiment, a "soul" is a breathing creature. In the OT context, we are all souls--as are dogs and cats. "Man became a living soul," in our language, might as well be said to be "Man became a living being." Now, in the New Testiment, "soul" often means the same thing--but at times we see references to the soul being not something we are, but something we have. In these references, the word refers to our vitality--our life. "Spirit," then, in Hebrew I know for sure and I think Greek is the same, is the same word as those translated to be "breath" and "wind." So, again, our Spirit is our breath, which is our life. The Holy Spirit is Holy Breath, Holy Wind--God's breath, which is life for us all. (Brings new meaning to "Rush and mighty wind," doesn't it?) So, with that, we know now that "soul" isn't some kind of an ethervescent thing with the face of a man, but with a wavy, gleaming form--modern English might as well translate those words as "being," rather than "soul."

The second thing we must look at is "What are heaven and earth as they relate to the Scriptures?" In the scriptures, "Earth" doesn't pertain to a planet, and "heaven" doesn't pertain to a fluffy place with harps and gold, somewhat below the stratesphere. Rather, "Earth" is dry ground, as opposed to the sea, and "Heaven" is merely the sky. Nothing special of itself--just the sky. What makes the word special, at times, is the context in which it is used. So there are 3 places in Biblical geography--the Earth, Heaven, and the Sea. "God in Heaven," then, is a God who is existence itself--who encompasses all. So--if you're going by Revelation, the New Jerusalem is on the new Earth. It is the new Earth--not Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven--the Kingdom of all things; Heaven encompasses all. "Great is your reward in Heaven." Again, the all-encompassing God in the all-encompassing sky, ruler of all.

Now, that being said, we must realize that streets of Gold and a crystal sea (the meaning of "crystal sea" is debatable, especially when John explicitly states that there was no more sea) ARE NOT the only symbols given to man of the Kingdom to come, just as the lake of Fire is not the only Symbol of Gehenna that is given to man. The Gospels are full of parables that Jesus gave us to understand the Kingdom, and Gehenna. (We must also be concerned with the pictures painted by Genesis. Where were the golden streets in Eden?) I assert that the Kingdom is NOT made up of a shiny yellow metal--rather, the Kingdom is made up of the Spirit of God. The streets of gold are a symbol to help us understand the Kingdom, which is something we see through a glass darkly. They are not a literal photograph of the Kingdom, just as the beast with 7 heads is not a literal photograph of what is to come, and neither are the golden lampstands a literal photograph of the church. To insist that the New Jerusalem is literal, but the rest of the imagery in Revalation is not, is to be extremely inconsistent.

So, will we be with God in his Kingdom? Yes, most certainly we will be one with him. Will we walk around on these FLESHLY, CARNAL things we call legs on solid gold? Who would want to do that, when we can be perfect with God? This earth we are on now is fallen, and all of its substances are cursed--our language is cursed. Our vocal chords are cursed, and I know I for one cannot praise God to the extent that I would like with them. Our movement is cursed--when we wish to be in another place, we require time to get there. In the Kingdom, we will be closer to God than we are now. How can that be so, if Christ will be outside us, standing on a stage or in a pulpit, when Christ is INSIDE us now? The Kingdom is an embrace--it is not a lifeless structure made of materials from the earth. If you want to see a symbol of the Kingdom for yourself, take a look at a bride on her wedding day.

 

[Hidden in Christ]

The second thing we must look at is "What are heaven and earth as they relate to the Scriptures?" In the scriptures, "Earth" doesn't pertain to a planet, and "heaven" doesn't pertain to a fluffy place with harps and gold, somewhat below the stratesphere. Rather, "Earth" is dry ground, as opposed to the sea, and "Heaven" is merely the sky. Nothing special of itself--just the sky. What makes the word special, at times, is the context in which it is used. So there are 3 places in Biblical geography--the Earth, Heaven, and the Sea. "God in Heaven," then, is a God who is existence itself--who encompasses all. So--if you're going by Revelation, the New Jerusalem is on the new Earth. It is the new Earth--not Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven--the Kingdom of all things; Heaven encompasses all. "Great is your reward in Heaven." Again, the all-encompassing God in the all-encompassing sky, ruler of all.

He put me back together,
What do you suppose Paul is talking about in 2 Corinthians 12 when he says he was caught up "to the third heaven." I have heard of the theory that there are three meanings for the word heaven in Scripture. The sky and clouds that we can see above us are referred to by some as the "first heaven." Then the solar system and all the planets beyond what we can see are called "the second heaven." (People who teach this cite the verse that says "The heaven of heavens cannot contain thee." They say that means that the universe cannot contain God.) Then they say the third heaven (mentioned above) is where believers go after death. Like I said, this is only a theory I have heard, but I have not made an in depth study of the subject for myself.

However, just with the leadership of the Spirit of God, I tend to believe that heaven will be physical, but not in the way that we know physicality here in this world. I think it will far surpass what we know or can conceive with our natural mind. The Bible says "eye hath not seen, nor ear heard" what God has in store for us, but He is able to reveal it through His Spirit. (1 Corinthians 2:9-10) I believe we will have the supernatural ability to travel distance without the limiting factor of time. I believe we will have bodies that never die, get sick or have temptation. I believe we will probably never sleep. It will just be one, long endless eternity of praising God and rejoicing in His presence with our brothers and sisters. I think there will be a physical component to our environment, but it will be far more beautiful than anything we have ever seen in this world. But because we will not sin, we will not for one moment worship the physical beauty around us, but rather we will give God glory for everything.

As I said, this is my opinion. Perhaps I will post here again once I do a more in-depth study on the subject.

 

[Crazy Liz]

After death, do we go to Heaven, or Paradise? Is there a difference between these?

Do we have an immortal soul, which must be "someplace" between the time of our death and the time of our resurrection?

Revelation mentions "a new heaven and a new earth." It also describes teh new Jerusalem descending to earth. Are these metaphors or descriptions of concrete future events, places and things?

Hugh Ross (www.reasons.org) takes the descriptions of the New Jerusalem in Revelation as describing a radical change in the laws of physics. There are many other possible interpretations. If you are interested in trying to understand how eternity empirically relates to the time-space continuum, I think Ross is the most rational and spiritual thinker exploring this question. I'm not sure if the answer is empirical at all, but I have no problem with Ross' speculations.

 

[onajourney87]

I think some of these verses may help you some.

Isaiah 65:17
Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

Isaiah 66:22
As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD[...]

2 Peter 3:12-13
as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-3
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

There's a lot more about Heaven throughout Revelation, I suggest you read it if you haven't. However, throughout, there does seem to be the idea that Heaven is in some way physical, or has some kind of 'physicalness' to it.

I think CS Lewis was accurate when he said, and I forget the exact wording, that earth is a reflection of Heaven. The earth, and everything on it was once perfect. Due to sin, the earth and everything on it is now under a curse. From that curse, there is now pain and things have been twisted and the like. Earth is now merely a reflection of how it originally was.

osm

 

[d0c markus]

REV 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

REV 21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

REV 21:6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

REV 21:9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

REV 21:15 The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16 The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia(ROUGHLY 1400 MILES) in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17 He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits thick, by man's measurement, which the angel was using. 18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19 The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.

REV 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

REV 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

I BELIEVE THIS TO BE LITERAL.

 

[He put me back together]

After death, do we go to Heaven, or Paradise? Is there a difference between these?

Do we have an immortal soul, which must be "someplace" between the time of our death and the time of our resurrection?

Revelation mentions "a new heaven and a new earth." It also describes teh new Jerusalem descending to earth. Are these metaphors or descriptions of concrete future events, places and things?

Hugh Ross (www.reasons.org) takes the descriptions of the New Jerusalem in Revelation as describing a radical change in the laws of physics. There are many other possible interpretations. If you are interested in trying to understand how eternity empirically relates to the time-space continuum, I think Ross is the most rational and spiritual thinker exploring this question. I'm not sure if the answer is empirical at all, but I have no problem with Ross' speculations.

Yes, I would tend to agree with you...but when we use ambiguous words like "physical," what we mean can be distorted. I think a better word to use would be "real." "Physical" can refer to a multitude of things. Chemists and Physicists use it to describe the "big world," referring to mechanical changes in large bodies, as opposed to heat, chemical, and subatomic changes. CF readers, even, often think of the term "physical" as synonomous with "carnal." Our existence with God is not and will not be carnal, but it will be more real than this place. It isn't some ambiguous blob of shadows moving about; it is MORE concrete (ugh...maybe we should get a better word that "concrete") than this place that we know--but, unfortunately, as anything in this age or the next where we are looking through a glass darkly, ALL of our visions of it are shadows. Every single one of them.

There are things in this age that we do not understand, because they are not in our language--subatomics and quantum physics are a couple of examples. When one begins to ponder what we men believe to be the basic fibers of our universe, he must devise symbols to help him understand, because that which lies beneath the atom is completely different than the physical interactions that we see with our eyes. Pushes and pulls aren't quite the same ball game anymore. This by no means means that subatomic properties are *chaotic* or less real than the world for which they are building blocks--it just means they are so alien to our senses that our minds have no comprehension of them. So, if things are such a sillouette in this age, we are arrogant to say that we can begin to describe the age to come, when we will see Yahweh, face to face, who created the stars and the atoms.

Now, the third heaven. As for that which explicitly refers to this, I can only think of Paul myself. My only solid observation is a certain correlation that "third heaven" has with the temple, and the Holy of Holies. Perhaps one could say that Paul was referring to the Holy of Holies, as opposed to outer and inner courts.

Some people think that these are referring to universes--the first heaven is our own, the 2nd being Eden, the original and future dwelling place of man, and the 3rd being the "throneroom." This goes along quite a bit with my own observation, but I don't quite think there is scripture to support it. For me to see it as more than speculation, the Lord would have to reveal it to me. But a good thing that I've heard from a man who believes this is: "When we are with him, we can all enter the throneroom. We are sons and daughters. Sons and daughters have keys to their father's house. They can go boldly into the house, because it is their home, as well. We can go boldly to the throne of grace." This is absolutely true, whether this business of 3 universes is true or not.

Now, I do doubt that the 3rd heaven is in reference to some place above and around the stars, which are a 2nd heaven. The Hebrews just didn't think that way. The night sky and the blue daytime sky was the same heaven to them. The waters deviding, and all this business of a firmanement in Genesis really only refers to one Heaven being created. It really doesn't make reference to another heaven floating up there above our own. But I would still like to hear what the guy says. "Third heaven" makes for an interesting topic, especially since it is so ambiguous.

 

[He put me back together]

oops--I meant to put in a quote bubble for Hidden in Christ. Sorry bout that

(I fixed it for you friend... check it please ~ didaskalos)

 

[1John5:3]

Those interested in this topic would do well to see PART III: HUMAN NATURE AS BODY AND FLESH from the link below (half-way down the page):

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/2.htm

 

[Sera'naphsus]

As to soul and body, the tangible body is the means for the you to participate in this great place of tangible physicality. You aren't a body with a soul. You are, however, a soul connected to a body.

As far as Heaven to Earth, Heaven is actually a place of existence. To what degree, it doesn't matter. I will say that it is a place to experience at a higher physical degree. Knowing that, wouldn't that make Heaven a more desirable place? But that comes from the fact that I cherish God and my home, Heaven, without a thorough understanding of the Bible. You might be more inclined to understand a scriptural reference than mine.

Sera'naphsus