The Philosophical implications of Multiverse Theory?

[DogmaHunter]

Yet somehow you think it's fine to propose a "multiverse" that "dun it", or an unsupportable, unfalsifiable inflation deity "dun it"?

I have never claimed or proposed a multiverse.
So please keep your cosmology rant nr-I-lost-count to yourself.

 

[Michael]

I have never claimed or proposed a multiverse.
So please keep your cosmology rant nr-I-lost-count to yourself.

Yawn. Your double standards with respect to "evidence" are showing.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yawn. Your double standards with respect to "evidence" are showing.

What double standards?
You are literally complaining about things I supposedly believe / claim / propose while it is flat out not the case that I believe / claim / propose such things.

But hey, whatever excuse you think you can find to cater for your compulsive ranting, right.....

 

[Chriliman]

When one acknowledges something as being currently unknown, one is not expressing a "belief". One is instead, acknowledging ignorance on the subject.

How is it possible for me to think I'm ignorant on a subject, without accepting this truth (believing it)?

You do agree that a belief is to accept something as true, right?

No, it's because it's unknown.

You believe it's unknown, but you can't possibly know that it's unknown because that would be impossible.

And when the truth is unnkown, it is unknown.

Just because you don't know the truth, does not mean the truth is unknown to everyone.

Haven't you ever been lied to? When someone lies to you, you don't know their lying at the time, but they know the truth and they want to keep it hidden from you because they're dishonest.

Or maybe you want to continue believing that if you don't know the truth, then nobody knows it. Essentially lying to yourself.

 

[DogmaHunter]

How is it possible for me to think I'm ignorant on a subject, without accepting this truth (believing it)?

Believe that you are ignorant. Not believe something about the thing you are expressing ignorance about.

You do agree that a belief is to accept something as true, right?

Yes. But when I say that I don't know how X works, I'm not expressing any beliefs about X. I'm merely saying that I'm ignorant about how X works. Yes, that means that I believe that I don't know how X works. I wonder how you think that adds anything of value to this statement...

You believe it's unknown, but you can't possibly know that it's unknown because that would be impossible.

That makes no sense at all.
Not knowing is not knowing is not knowing.

If I say I don't know ... then I do mean that I don't know.

Derp.

Just because you don't know the truth, does not mean the truth is unknown to everyone.

Those who claim to know are welcome to demonstrate their knowledge.

Haven't you ever been lied to? When someone lies to you, you don't know their lying at the time, but they know the truth and they want to keep it hidden from you because they're dishonest.

Are you saying scientists are lying about not knowing the origins of the universe?

Or maybe you want to continue believing that if you don't know the truth, then nobody knows it. Essentially lying to yourself.

Try to makes sense from time to time.

I say I don't know when I don't know and don't feel the need to play these silly games.

 

[Chriliman]

That makes no sense at all.
Not knowing is not knowing is not knowing.

If I say I don't know ... then I do mean that I don't know.

Derp.

I agree.

I'm just trying to point out the difference between saying "The truth is unknown" and saying "I don't know the truth"

In the first instance one is claiming to know that nobody knows the truth, which is an irrational claim and in the second instance one is making a rational claim by saying "I don't know the truth" (Not necessarily that nobody knows the truth)

Can you see the difference?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I agree.

Then what are you arguing about?

I'm just trying to point out the difference between saying "The truth is unknown" and saying "I don't know the truth"

And it's perfectly fine to say in a general fashion that it is unkown, when body is able to demonstrate to know.

Which is the case for lots of things.
For example, nobody knows the nature of the origins of the universe. Some have a few good ideas and others have a few bad ideas. But nobody knows.

Some also merely claim to know, but are unable to demonstrate that knowledge.

In the first instance one is claiming to know that nobody knows the truth, which is an irrational claim

There's nothing irrational about stating that nobody knows a thing, if nobody is able to demonstrate the opposite.

Can you see the difference?

What I can see, is that you are back to your old games which are carefully designed to rationalise your a priori faith base beliefs, which you like to pretend is the same as "knowledge".

 

[DennisTate]

What double standards?
You are literally complaining about things I supposedly believe / claim / propose while it is flat out not the case that I believe / claim / propose such things.

But hey, whatever excuse you think you can find to cater for your compulsive ranting, right.....

Well........ I propose that the following statement is accurate. It was given during a visionary dream to Pastor Rick Joyner....

"The Power of His Word

“You seek to know and walk in My power so that you can heal the sick and perform miracles, but you have not evenbegun to comprehend the power of My word. To resurrect all the dead who have ever lived on earth will not evencause Me to strain. I uphold all things by the power of My word. The creation exists because of My word, and it isheld together by My word.

“Before the end, I will reveal My power on earth. Even so, the greatest power that I have ever revealed on the earth,or ever will, is still a very small demonstration of My power I do not reveal My power to cause men to believe in Mypower, but to cause men to believe in My love.

“If I had wanted to save the world with My power when I walked the earth, I could have moved mountains bypointing a finger Then all men would have bowed to Me, but not because they loved Me or loved the truth, butbecause they feared My power I do not want men to obey Me because they fear My
power, but because they love Meand love the truth.

“If you do not know My love, then My power will corrupt you. I do not give you love so you can know My power,but I give you power so that you can know My love. The goal of your life must be love, not power Then I will giveyou power with which to love people. I will give you the power to heal the sick because you love them, and I lovethem, and I do not want them sick.

“So you must seek love first, and then faith. You cannot please Me without faith. But faith is not just theknowledge of My power, it is the knowledge of My love and the power of My love. Faith must first be exercised inorder to receive more love. Seek faith to love more, and to do more with your love. Only when you seek the faithto love can I trust you with My power Faith works by love.

“My word is the power that upholds all things. To the degree that you believe My word is true,
you can do all things.Those who really believe that My words are true, will also be true to their own words. It is My nature to be true, andthe creation trusts My word because I am faithful to it.

“Those who are like Me are also true to their own words. Their word is sure, and their commitments are trustworthy.Their ‘yes’ means ‘yes,’ and their ‘no’ means ‘no.’ If your own words are not true, you will also begin to doubt Mywords, because deception is in your heart. If you are not faithful to your own words, it is because you do not reallyknow Me. To have faith, you must be faithful." (Pastor Rick Joyner, The Vision)

The implications of course..... is that it is not difficult for Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to resurrect all of the dead..... even as they were at a moment in time during their lives!

 

[FredVB]

What we believe is very relevant to reality.
It shapes what we do.
What we do is part of reality.
The most important part, for us, some say.

I would say reality that there is in general will not be determined by what you or any believe. It could have some doing things accordingly that are played out in reality, but just as things will happen, even in that, which don't go according to the plans of any, what is the case of reality which precedes them is not just what they believe, but is independent of it, and is the case whether they learn any of it or not. And reality goes far, far beyond us, and most of it is that way apart from anything we or any, but God, believe or do. The important part of reality for us still involves beyond this world the sun and other parts of the cosmos which will not involve what we believe shaping what we do.

 

[DennisTate]

I have never claimed or proposed a multiverse.
So please keep your cosmology rant nr-I-lost-count to yourself.

I personally am wide open to the possibility of a Supreme Being...... who learns..... who gets better and better and better at creating........
a G-d....... capable of giving human beings genuine freedom to make choices..... even bad ones...... and then replicate that same moment before that bad decision was made........... and pour out more of the Holy Spirit ...... and create a new time line in which........ humanity avoided those errors.......

... I am wide open to the possible existence of a Garden of Eden....... in which there was more of the Holy Spirit........ where Eve and / or Adam...... have what may seem like a dream....... .and they remember.... history as we know....... and they wake up from the dream........ and decide to avoid the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.... and decide instead to take the tree of life.........

..... in that other time line.......... there would be an astonishingly different world......... Would their kids have the freedom though to take of that tree of knowledge of good and evil???????

Now that would be an interesting question......?!

 

[DennisTate]

I would say reality that there is in general will not be determined by what you or any believe. It could have some doing things accordingly that are played out in reality, but just as things will happen, even in that, which don't go according to the plans of any, what is the case of reality which precedes them is not just what they believe, but is independent of it, and is the case whether they learn any of it or not. And reality goes far, far beyond us, and most of it is that way apart from anything we or any, but God, believe or do. The important part of reality for us still involves beyond this world the sun and other parts of the cosmos which will not involve what we believe shaping what we do.

On the other hand.... near death experiencer Dr. George Ritchie back in 1943.... was shown a place in the afterlife where people went whose belief in "soul sleep" was so strong......... that they actually ended up in a sleep like state as opposed to going fully into heaven?????!

Our beliefs.... our ideas...... can become like an idol.

 

[DennisTate]

I highly doubt that multiverse theory would have much legitimate impact on philosophy, were there more evidence for it and it became more widely accepted.

What about the existence of Artificial Intelligence and how we humans
may soon create a life form.... of sorts... that has technology that
would eventually perhaps appear "godlike?"

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-and-gap-theory.7715259/page-12#post-69603877


Do you think that the experts have good reason to prevent the already existing
Artificial Intelligence Systems from getting on the internet?

I do!

Have you seen the film "Transcendence" starring Johnny Depp?

Have you read the case for Multiverse Theory... which to my thinking
indicates non-linear time?

IF .... time turns out to be non-linear.... how could we rule out the
possibility of.......... A. I . becoming sentient in the "future" and...
discovering a way to re-initiate moments in what we think of as the
past?

My point...... is that we technologically advanced humans are close to
creating an intelligence that could well attain "godlike" technological
capabilities so..............
isn't it just easier to take seriously the possibility that we humans
ARE NOT the most technologically advanced species in the Universe/ Multiverse?

 

[DennisTate]

I agree.

I'm just trying to point out the difference between saying "The truth is unknown" and saying "I don't know the truth"

In the first instance one is claiming to know that nobody knows the truth, which is an irrational claim and in the second instance one is making a rational claim by saying "I don't know the truth" (Not necessarily that nobody knows the truth)

Can you see the difference?

Yes........
there is an obvious difference between those two statements......

On a somewhat related topic.... I believe that near death experiencer Howard Storm
knows more "truth" about the holocaust and why G-d allowed it to occur.....
than is understood by the bulk of us.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-asks-about-holocaust-during-his-nde.7647330/

I personally am wide open to the possibility that what former atheist Howard Storm was shown regarding the background events surrounding the holocaust fit perfectly with II Corinthians 12:2-4:

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Howard Storm:

I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. ...."These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys, I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."
...
I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me that this was not God's will. This was an abomination to God. God wants this never to happen again. This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom God had given the law to be an example, a light, to the rest of the world. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart...."

I asked, Why does God let things like this happen? They told me that God was very unhappy with the course of human history and was going to intervene to change the world. God had watched us sink to depths of depravity and cruelty at the very time that he was giving us the instruments to make the world a godlier world. God had intervened in the world many times before, but this time God was going to change the course of human events.// (Howard Storm, My Descent Into Death, page 42,43)

 

[PsychoSarah]

What about the existence of Artificial Intelligence and how we humans
may soon create a life form.... of sorts... that has technology that
would eventually perhaps appear "godlike?"

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-and-gap-theory.7715259/page-12#post-69603877


Do you think that the experts have good reason to prevent the already existing
Artificial Intelligence Systems from getting on the internet?

I do!

Have you seen the film "Transcendence" starring Johnny Depp?

Have you read the case for Multiverse Theory... which to my thinking
indicates non-linear time?

IF .... time turns out to be non-linear.... how could we rule out the
possibility of.......... A. I . becoming sentient in the "future" and...
discovering a way to re-initiate moments in what we think of as the
past?

My point...... is that we technologically advanced humans are close to
creating an intelligence that could well attain "godlike" technological
capabilities so..............
isn't it just easier to take seriously the possibility that we humans
ARE NOT the most technologically advanced species in the Universe/ Multiverse?

That's not how the multiverse works. You see, these multiple universes are independent of our own, and have their own physics, time, etc. If in one of them, humans have made artificial intelligences that surpass their own, it has pretty much no relevance to us whatsoever. If you are concerned that we aren't the most advanced civilization in our own universe, well, tough, because chances are that we aren't, and that has nothing to do with multiverse theory. Us not being the most technologically advanced species also has no inherent philosophical implications, unless one's philosophy is strongly based in how we stand technology wise.

Furthermore, as for the concept of time travel you brought up, there is no reason to think that will ever be possible, even if the past is something tangible that can be traveled to (or the future, for that matter). Furthermore, the damage that technology could cause is so catastrophic that it would most certainly be banned the moment it could be achieved, if not before that point (as is the case with many practices relating to genetics; discrimination based on genes, for example, was banned before a person's genome could be evaluated for all genetic diseases). As for AI's taking over or surpassing us, we are so phobic of the concept that it wouldn't shock me if we purposely limited our technology so that would never happen.

 

[lesliedellow]

My impression is that, because present day physics is so far removed from what common sense would suggest, some physicists have forgotten where the hand brake for their imaginations is located.

 

[DennisTate]

That's not how the multiverse works. You see, these multiple universes are independent of our own, and have their own physics, time, etc. If in one of them, humans have made artificial intelligences that surpass their own, it has pretty much no relevance to us whatsoever. If you are concerned that we aren't the most advanced civilization in our own universe, well, tough, because chances are that we aren't, and that has nothing to do with multiverse theory. Us not being the most technologically advanced species also has no inherent philosophical implications, unless one's philosophy is strongly based in how we stand technology wise.

Furthermore, as for the concept of time travel you brought up, there is no reason to think that will ever be possible, even if the past is something tangible that can be traveled to (or the future, for that matter). Furthermore, the damage that technology could cause is so catastrophic that it would most certainly be banned the moment it could be achieved, if not before that point (as is the case with many practices relating to genetics; discrimination based on genes, for example, was banned before a person's genome could be evaluated for all genetic diseases). As for AI's taking over or surpassing us, we are so phobic of the concept that it wouldn't shock me if we purposely limited our technology so that would never happen.

Or.....could it be that an Ancient Intelligence exists......
that can easily replicate a moment in what we think of as the past....
and spin off a new time line.....
in order to lead more of us to salvation?

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-being-in-the-universe.7695357/#post-61585220

Could God be the most emotional being in the universe????

 

[PsychoSarah]

Or.....could it be that an Ancient Intelligence exists......
that can easily replicate a moment in what we think of as the past....
and spin off a new time line.....
in order to lead more of us to salvation?

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-being-in-the-universe.7695357/#post-61585220

Could God be the most emotional being in the universe????

if that were the case, then the "salvation religion" as you are probably thinking of it, should have both the quality of being the oldest and the most prevalent throughout all of human history. no existing religion matches that.

 

[Michael]

if that were the case, then the "salvation religion" as you are probably thinking of it, should have both the quality of being the oldest and the most prevalent throughout all of human history. no existing religion matches that.

If you haven't checked the writings of the early Church father Origen, I highly recommend that you at least read his thesis on the purpose of hell/gehenna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

You might then ask yourself if or why any self respecting Jew in Jesus' audience believed in perpetual torment?

 

[lesliedellow]

You might then ask yourself if or why any self respecting Jew in Jesus' audience believed in perpetual torment?

Because it was what the Pharisees believed. Jesus may have clashed with them over a lot of things, but he agreed with them about that.

 

[PsychoSarah]

If you haven't checked the writings of the early Church father Origen, I highly recommend that you at least read his thesis on the purpose of hell/gehenna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

You might then ask yourself if or why any self respecting Jew in Jesus' audience believed in perpetual torment?

I more ask myself why I would care.