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The phenomenon and the explanation

Subduction Zone

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How would you know a quantum system (or a single particle) is in multiple states until measured? It seems to me the measuring proved my point.



I'm not sure what you are protesting: how is a system doing two things at once not one thing?

Alright. let's see if I can explain this. Everything is always in some sort of quantum state. When you measure a particle you have to affect it. On the macro level that effect is very small and is usually below the margin of error in the measurement so it can be safely ignored. But to measure a very small particle means that one has changed its state. One can only tell what state it was in. It "collapses" the probability envelope.

The problem with small particles is that one cannot tell exactly what state they are in and even on an individual level they act as if they are in two states at times.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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How would you know a quantum system (or a single particle) is in multiple states until measured? It seems to me the measuring proved my point.
Strictly speaking, my description was a bit sloppy. What I called 'states' are the probabilities of the system being measured to be in one or another state; prior to measurement it doesn't actually have that property at all. Similarly, the popular meme that a quantum particle can be 'in two places at once' is a simplification - it doesn't have a location property until it's measured. IOW these 'properties' are potential or latent, and only become real when the quantum system interacts with something. How can it interact if it doesn't have a location? it will interact with another quantum system (e.g. measuring apparatus) in a location where it has some probability of being observed, and with that probability.

The simple way to distinguish between having incomplete knowledge of the system (i.e. it's in one or other state and we just don't know which state it's in until we measure it) and quantum superposition (i.e. it's not in either state, but in a superposition of measurement outcome probabilities), is by quantum interference.

The probabilities of the various measurement outcomes are given by a wavefunction, the amplitude of which at some point can tell you the probability of measuring a particular outcome. These amplitudes can be positive or negative (peaks and troughs of the wave) but are squared to get the outcome probability (because you can't have a negative probability).

If there is more than one way for a measurement to occur, e.g. the double-slit experiment, where a particle can go through either of two slits to hit a screen, the wavefunctions for each path must be summed to get the probabilities of the final measurement outcome. For the double-slit experiment, the wavefunctions for the particle to pass through each slit are summed to get the measurement outcome at the screen. Since summing two waves means coincident peaks and coincident troughs will reinforce each other and peaks coinciding with troughs will cancel out, the result will be a wave function describing an interference pattern on the screen, a non-classical result.

However, if the particle is then measured/observed to go through one slit or the other, only the wavefunction for that slit is relevant, so no interference will occur, and the result will be wave function describing a classical distribution for measurement outcomes on the screen opposite that slit.

I'm not sure what you are protesting: how is a system doing two things at once not one thing?
I'm not protesting anything, just using the non-classical counterintuitive characteristics of quantum behaviour to ask a rhetorical question; a single action that produces a superposition could be seen as achieving two different outcomes, a particle with a probability of being observed in state A and a particle with a probability of being observed in state not-A, in the same particle. It depends what you mean by 'only one thing can ever happen'.

It's just an example of QM having significantly different logical behaviour from classical physics.
 
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dlamberth

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God was taken out of the Earth and put somewhere in the sky acting like a Greek/Roman Pagan God sitting high up on a mountain distributing punishment on cities, states and persons and even the world.
 
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Mark Quayle

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How can it interact if it doesn't have a location? it will interact with another quantum system (e.g. measuring apparatus) in a location where it has some probability of being observed, and with that probability.

This reminds me of a video I saw, suggested on this site, I think, of a woman who was trying to get across to the listener/watcher, how QM works. She was asking did a beam of light know which was the fastest route to the object it was shining on, (her reference was a beam of light shining from a source above water, at an angle through the surface of the water onto an object in the water.) To me the question was silly. It is the ONLY route to the object.

But no, I'm not saying this was like that —just that it made me think of it. I'm not sure what you are saying here, or in the rest of your post. Will have to try to understand better before responding to that.
 
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Mark Quayle

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God was taken out of the Earth and put somewhere in the sky acting like a Greek/Roman Pagan God sitting high up on a mountain distributing punishment on cities, states and persons and even the world.
What has that to do with what Phred said?
 
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Subduction Zone

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This reminds me of a video I saw, suggested on this site, I think, of a woman who was trying to get across to the listener/watcher, how QM works. She was asking did a beam of light know which was the fastest route to the object it was shining on, (her reference was a beam of light shining from a source above water, at an angle through the surface of the water onto an object in the water.) To me the question was silly. It is the ONLY route to the object.

But no, I'm not saying this was like that —just that it made me think of it. I'm not sure what you are saying here, or in the rest of your post. Will have to try to understand better before responding to that.
And this is where QM gets a bit too weird for me. Light does not follow a straight line on a quantum level. It averages out to be a straight line. When it comes to individual photons Feynman developed a method involving integrals of all of the possible paths that the light took.

Path integral formulation - Wikipedia
 
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Mark Quayle

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And this is where QM gets a bit too weird for me. Light does not follow a straight line on a quantum level. It averages out to be a straight line. When it comes to individual photons Feynman developed a method involving integrals of all of the possible paths that the light took.

Path integral formulation - Wikipedia
Meaning, photons do not follow a straight line on a quantum level? Yet they hang together, to average out.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I was making comment on the God of the Bible not possible comment.
Oh. ok, I get your point now. Well, that isn't the God of the Bible you were talking about, but a God of your selected parts, as seen from your POV.
 
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Phred

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Read the Bible. God is a jealous god. God is not jealous. God is pleased with his creation, God is not pleased with his creation. Men have seen God, no one has seen God. God does change his mind. God does not change his mind. All throughout the Bible God is a contradiction. Contradictions cannot exist.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Meaning, photons do not follow a straight line on a quantum level? Yet they hang together, to average out.
I am not sure and will probably get it wrong. I do know that when odd quantum concepts are tested they tend to be confirmed.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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This reminds me of a video I saw, suggested on this site, I think, of a woman who was trying to get across to the listener/watcher, how QM works. She was asking did a beam of light know which was the fastest route to the object it was shining on, (her reference was a beam of light shining from a source above water, at an angle through the surface of the water onto an object in the water.) To me the question was silly. It is the ONLY route to the object.

But no, I'm not saying this was like that —just that it made me think of it. I'm not sure what you are saying here, or in the rest of your post. Will have to try to understand better before responding to that.
OK. It's a tricky subject to explain, but if you have questions I'll try to help.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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And this is where QM gets a bit too weird for me. Light does not follow a straight line on a quantum level. It averages out to be a straight line. When it comes to individual photons Feynman developed a method involving integrals of all of the possible paths that the light took.

Path integral formulation - Wikipedia
That's pretty much the same idea I was talking about, but applied to the path of a quantum object. When you sum all possible paths, the most unlikely paths cancel out and you end up with the observed path. You don't really need to sum all possible paths, because the very unlikely ones cancel out almost completely and don't make a significant contribution to the path. IIRC Feynman describes it quite clearly in QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter.

The issue with these methods is the usual quantum problem - how they can be interpreted in comprehensible natural language & familiar concepts.
 
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Eloy Craft

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It's a matter of what's claimed.
Say a third of the world saw a big red ball in the sky. A third believed that it was there on account of those who see it. The remaining third was divided. 90 percent said it might be there but can't believe it's there because they can't see it. The remaining 10 percent said it's not there because we can't see it. What position seems least reasonable?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Read the Bible. God is a jealous god. God is not jealous. God is pleased with his creation, God is not pleased with his creation. Men have seen God, no one has seen God. God does change his mind. God does not change his mind. All throughout the Bible God is a contradiction. Contradictions cannot exist.
Yet if we show such easily explained "contradictions" in your thinking, it would be simple enough for you to explain what you meant.

To me, it seems you just want to see the contradictions, not figure out why they look like contradictions to you.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I am not sure and will probably get it wrong. I do know that when odd quantum concepts are tested they tend to be confirmed.
Well, as ignorant of the subject as I am, I probably shouldn't comment too much, but at this point, so many different things seem to be said, that when I hear something was confirmed by something else so hard to understand, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a certain amount of confirmation bias going on. But, yeah, that happens with my own thinking, too.
 
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